[Orthodox Christianity] Why does God force all people to live, even though a lot of us will be damned for all eternity?

[Rhombus]

Im asking this from an Orthodox Christian perspective where hell is not a place but our own experience of God's love (for some its hell, for some heaven)...

I find it hard to understand how God can be a "loving God", and at the same time force people to live, even though their eternity turns out to be hell everlasting...
If people (due to their own fault or not, it doesn't matter at all) are made sick by Him, and His presence and His love - wouldn't it be a "loving" thing then to end their misery by making them go back into nothingness/nonexistence?

It is already clear people like that will never learn to accept him and will eternally have a problem with him, and i doubt they will enjoy hanging out with demons and other wicked either... why keep them in existence then, what is the point?

Since it is established (as far as i know, anyway, correct me if im wrong) in Orthodoxy that God does not seek to punish people - the argument of punishment does not hold up, and even if that was the case - there wouldn't be any logic in punishing people eternally for just one short human life of sin, so in that case - God would, without a doubt, be a psychopatic autocrat, so the punishment argument is pretty much senseless to me...

 

[JaumeJ]

It is written in Isaiah we may bring our argument to God for us to be proven right.

Why ask of men when you are invited to go to the Source?

 

[Hungry]

Your understanding is flawed. It’s more like this: Let’s say you are a breeder of dogs. You breed them, and train them to serve you. You love, feed, and care for them. You live in a nice place, but it is surrounded by wilderness, wild animals, and hunters who shoot and eat dogs. The dogs look into the wilderness and decide they want to go there. It looks fun and free. You decide to let them make the choice. You bring all of them into the wilderness and walk back. Those who follow you, are saved from the dangers all around, those who stay or run away do to their own demise. The ones who belong to you have purpose, life and shelter, while those who do not suffer. The gate is always left open for the wayward ones who wish to return. You even go out for walks into the wilderness hoping to find some, in hopes they return. In the end, it is free will. The dogs who chose the wilderness were not punished. Rather the ones who followed were saved.

I chose dogs because we can fathom how we adopt them and make them part of our families...like God does with us.

 

[Hevosmies]

Since it is established (as far as i know, anyway, correct me if im wrong) in Orthodoxy that God does not seek to punish people - the argument of punishment does not hold up, and even if that was the case - there wouldn't be any logic in punishing people eternally for just one short human life of sin, so in that case - God would, without a doubt, be a psychopatic autocrat, so the punishment argument is pretty much senseless to me...

Maybe in modern day apostate christianity they believe God does not seek to punish people. Unfortunately you dont have to read very long in the Bible to come across the fact that God DOES indeed seek to punish people, quite a bit. Just take a look at Genesis 3, one act of disobedience condemned the entire human race, before they even existed to unimagineable misery.

Take a look at the punishments to the people of Israel for when David numbered the people.


It might not be logical to punish someone for eternity for something they did in a short human life, but we dont make the rules, just like in this world there are different punishments based upon WHO you transgress against, when you transgress against an infinite God, the consequences are infinite.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Maybe in modern day apostate christianity they believe God does not seek to punish people. Unfortunately you dont have to read very long in the Bible to come across the fact that God DOES indeed seek to punish people, quite a bit. Just take a look at Genesis 3, one act of disobedience condemned the entire human race, before they even existed to unimagineable misery.

Take a look at the punishments to the people of Israel for when David numbered the people.


It might not be logical to punish someone for eternity for something they did in a short human life, but we dont make the rules, just like in this world there are different punishments based upon WHO you transgress against, when you transgress against an infinite God, the consequences are infinite.

People ar not punished for what they did, if anything they suffer for what they did not do

Jesus paid the debt for sin..and offers salvation to all

People who reject that salvation have chosen their fate. Much like the dogs in Hungrys story decided their own fate by rejecting the safety and salvation of their master.

 

[Rhombus]

Your understanding is flawed. It’s more like this: Let’s say you are a breeder of dogs. You breed them, and train them to serve you. You love, feed, and care for them. You live in a nice place, but it is surrounded by wilderness, wild animals, and hunters who shoot and eat dogs. The dogs look into the wilderness and decide they want to go there. It looks fun and free. You decide to let them make the choice. You bring all of them into the wilderness and walk back. Those who follow you, are saved from the dangers all around, those who stay or run away do to their own demise. The ones who belong to you have purpose, life and shelter, while those who do not suffer. The gate is always left open for the wayward ones who wish to return. You even go out for walks into the wilderness hoping to find some, in hopes they return. In the end, it is free will. The dogs who chose the wilderness were not punished. Rather the ones who followed were saved.

I chose dogs because we can fathom how we adopt them and make them part of our families...like God does with us.

Ok, using this logic - if the dogs in the wilderness can self-destruct at any time, when they realize the wilderness is not for them, but neither is the home they had previously (for whatever reason) or are simply killed once and that would be the end of it... then there is no issue here - i am perfectly at peace with that...
But the problem is - the dog breeder holds power over their lives. It is because of him that they cannot truly die and all they can do is: be eaten and killed over and over again by other dogs, predators, hunters, etc...
My problem with this is that it doesn't end and your choice of suicide (refraining from existing) is denied...

 

[Rhombus]

Maybe in modern day apostate christianity they believe God does not seek to punish people. Unfortunately you dont have to read very long in the Bible to come across the fact that God DOES indeed seek to punish people, quite a bit. Just take a look at Genesis 3, one act of disobedience condemned the entire human race, before they even existed to unimagineable misery.

Take a look at the punishments to the people of Israel for when David numbered the people.


It might not be logical to punish someone for eternity for something they did in a short human life, but we dont make the rules, just like in this world there are different punishments based upon WHO you transgress against, when you transgress against an infinite God, the consequences are infinite.

Orthodoxy does not quite believe that he punishes people, rather - he lets bad things happen in order to prove to people that without him they are pretty much nothing...
If that was the case, though, if God actually punishes us, measly, weak, mortals for not being so great and holy like him - then he is not a loving God, just a self-loving, psychopathic tyrant... In that case, i wouldn't be interested in knowing him or seeking answers about him - id simply spit in his face...

 

[Rhombus]

It is written in Isaiah we may bring our argument to God for us to be proven right.

Why ask of men when you are invited to go to the Source?

He has a habit of not talking to the majority of people unless they are 90+ year old monks from some monastery in the middle of the mountains...

 

[JaumeJ]

He has a habit of not talking to the majority of people unless they are 90+ year old monks from some monastery in the middle of the mountains...

And here I thought you were ignorning me.!

I am 74 so I suppose I fit the bill somewhat, though I am not a monk.

Here is the barb though. He spoke to me a few times, but at that time I was in my mid twneties, so if He would speak to me, I believe He will speak to anyone.

I do believe with all my heart that all who have come to believe Jesus hav heard Him at least one time, perhaps many more. I believe god has always spoken to those who wanted Him and needed truth...... YOu must believe you are speaking to HIm.

 

[Rhombus]

He spoke to me a few times

Can you describe that situation?
And how can you know its him?

 

[preacher4truth]

Orthodoxy does not quite believe that he punishes people, rather - he lets bad things happen in order to prove to people that without him they are pretty much nothing...
If that was the case, though, if God actually punishes us, measly, weak, mortals for not being so great and holy like him - then he is not a loving God, just a self-loving, psychopathic tyrant... In that case, i wouldn't be interested in knowing him or seeking answers about him - id simply spit in his face...

More Romans 9:20ism.

Wow, the above rant is man (rhombus) creating a god in his own image, then worshiping himself, er, I mean worshiping that god. And not a bit of fear to say he'd spit in God's face.

In fact, if possible, you already have.

It is evident in Scripture that God punishes men, and severely, even using secondary causes.

You ought to: 1) Repent, if granted repentance; 2) Actually read Scripture that shows how off base you are; 3) Plead to God for mercy.

It is unbelievable seeing the amount of blasphemous and carnal comments that are made by professing believers.

 

[JaumeJ]

Can you describe that situation?
And how can you know its him?

Are you a patient reader?

 

[Hevosmies]

People ar not punished for what they did

case in point.

How can I take anything you say seriously after you say stuff like that? Its like you've never even opened the Bible, yet you have probably read through it a bunch of times. Which fake pastor has reinterpreted the verses to you? It must of been someone.
Because from COVER to COVER, from Genesis to Revelation, people are always punished for what they did.

God isnt playing peek-a-boo with sin. Read the first chapters of the book of Revelation, Jesus had no difficulty whatsoever seeing the sins in the churches in Asia, NO problem.

 

[preacher4truth]

case in point

It's utterly ridiculous and shameful! Unreal!

 

[Hevosmies]

It's utterly ridiculous and shameful! Unreal!

I feel like Christianity is playing straight to the atheist's hand today. Because we get cornered by some philosophical argument and start backing off and inventing fancy philosophical unbiblical doctrines to get God "off the hook" so to speak.

Instead of just standing up and saying "YEAH BUDDY, thats how it is. Thats what the Scriptures teach, deal with it."

I was happy to see Silverman try to pull the same thing on White, but White just stood his ground and said thats how it is. (this was atheist vs christian debate)

 

[preacher4truth]

I feel like Christianity is playing straight to the atheist's hand today. Because we get cornered by some philosophical argument and start backing off and inventing fancy philosophical unbiblical doctrines to get God "off the hook" so to speak.

Instead of just standing up and saying "YEAH BUDDY, thats how it is. Thats what the Scriptures teach, deal with it."

I was happy to see Silverman try to pull the same thing on White, but White just stood his ground and said thats how it is. (this was atheist vs christian debate)

Here is what EG is teaching, though he will deny it, but it is true; He is saying by the comment you quoted that man is not lost until he rejects Christ (punished for what he didn't do). Um, sorry (not really!) man is already lost and being punished for what he has done.

If EG's nonsense were true (and it's not, it's his false gospel) then stop preaching, the lost aren't lost, they won't be punished for what they have done, they are safe and on their way to heaven in spite of the fact they are already condemned, John 3:17 and under wrath, Ephesians 2:3.

EG says man isn't punished for what he has done, listen up folks, EG is telling you his gospel which is contrary to Scripture!

Yes, yes, they're only *sniff* *sniff* going to be punished for what they didn't do which is pure emotionalsim, NOT the Gospel. (which when you think about all this, it makes his false gospel a works gospel because if they do xxxxxxxxx they'll be saved).

 

[Hungry]

Ok, using this logic - if the dogs in the wilderness can self-destruct at any time, when they realize the wilderness is not for them, but neither is the home they had previously (for whatever reason) or are simply killed once and that would be the end of it... then there is no issue here - i am perfectly at peace with that...
But the problem is - the dog breeder holds power over their lives. It is because of him that they cannot truly die and all they can do is: be eaten and killed over and over again by other dogs, predators, hunters, etc...
My problem with this is that it doesn't end and your choice of suicide (refraining from existing) is denied...

Ok let’s tweak the analogy. Let’s say the dog owner only wants the dogs to work for 2 mins a day. The rest of the time they spend playing, eating, getting their ears scratched and belly rubbed. Could the work really be so horrible for 2 mins a day. We have eternal souls. Our commitment in this life is a blink compared to eternity.

Try to remember eating something horrible or spicy when you were really young. For those few minutes it was gross or painfull. Now years later, it is just a distant memory, it has no effect. The unpleasantness is gone. So too will be this life, ten thousand years from now. We are given the choice; eat something bitter now and enjoy a feast for eternity or; eat something tasty now and eat something bitter for eternity.

I came to the conclusion, growth brings pain, and pain causes growth. The experiences that challenge us are what strengthen and define us. Add to your troubles instead of run from them. The weight they bear fortify you. If you go to a gym, and can’t do a push up, you should put extra weight on your back. Then struggle to lift and push that up. When you finally achieve that, when the weight is lifted, you can do ten push ups. That is true for everything. When I had my first child, everything was a struggle, then I had three more. I look back and think how easy it was having one. It’s all perspective. If life wasn’t so bad, it wouldn’t be worthy of reward.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Orthodoxy does not quite believe that he punishes people, rather - he lets bad things happen in order to prove to people that without him they are pretty much nothing...
If that was the case, though, if God actually punishes us, measly, weak, mortals for not being so great and holy like him - then he is not a loving God, just a self-loving, psychopathic tyrant... In that case, i wouldn't be interested in knowing him or seeking answers about him - id simply spit in his face...

Unless God does all to fulfill all your whims, desires, pleasures, believe as you do, act as you do, you will not bow to Him.

God does punish people my friend. In Numbers 16, God caused the ground to open up and swallow Korah and a bunch of other people.

 

[preacher4truth]

Sigh...it's time once more:

 

[Rhombus]

More Romans 9:20ism.

Wow, the above rant is man (rhombus) creating a god in his own image, then worshiping himself, er, I mean worshiping that god. And not a bit of fear to say he'd spit in God's face.

In fact, if possible, you already have.

It is evident in Scripture that God punishes men, and severely, even using secondary causes.

You ought to: 1) Repent, if granted repentance; 2) Actually read Scripture that shows how off base you are; 3) Plead to God for mercy.

It is unbelievable seeing the amount of blasphemous and carnal comments that are made by professing believers.

Punishment only creates fear, not love - if i was to be beaten up severely for something i did, i would not love my punishers, regardless of whether i was wrong or right in my actions, and be like: "its good you broke every bone in my body for i deserved it"... And don't be a liar - you wouldn't feel that way too...