Not By Works
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Hi ReturnToGod, for the benefit of your readers VCO is correct, when you add your response to a post please try to "Type your response" - after the - "[/QUOTE]" box.
Like this: Post your reply here but not within the [/QUOTE] <<boxes>> [/QUOTE], but your written reply should be "after the quote boxes", make any sense?
God bless!
Like this: Post your reply here but not within the [/QUOTE] <<boxes>> [/QUOTE], but your written reply should be "after the quote boxes", make any sense?
God bless!
I'm glad your more obedien than you were 27 years ago.
However one does have to say being more obedient than you were is not something necessarily to boast about (and I know you are not a fan of boasting one's self as you are seeking the praise of men) if one is being obedient to the wrong things.
Just like those who you keep bringing up. Those who never knew Jesus because they practice lawlessness.
However one does have to say being more obedient than you were is not something necessarily to boast about (and I know you are not a fan of boasting one's self as you are seeking the praise of men) if one is being obedient to the wrong things.
Just like those who you keep bringing up. Those who never knew Jesus because they practice lawlessness.
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No we cannot live in a continuous wilfull rebellious state if we proclaim genuine faith in Jesus.
If one does then does one have genuine faith?
That does not mean that we do not have periods of rebellion or sin.
I'm an example of that. Caught in a sin cycle yet hating it.
God had to deal with the cause of the effect in me.
Those who preach such things as you say will answer to God.
All we can is stand firm and be willing to come alongside those who have been damaged by it.
If one does then does one have genuine faith?
That does not mean that we do not have periods of rebellion or sin.
I'm an example of that. Caught in a sin cycle yet hating it.
God had to deal with the cause of the effect in me.
Those who preach such things as you say will answer to God.
All we can is stand firm and be willing to come alongside those who have been damaged by it.
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Regarding the underlined and bolded above;
The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.
These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)
...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13
...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2
How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?
We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.
Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?
..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10-14, 24
...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6-7
...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1-19
Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.
The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.
Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?
So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?
The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.
These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)
...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13
...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2
How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?
We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.
Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?
..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10-14, 24
...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6-7
...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1-19
Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.
The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.
Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?
So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?
E
John said that people who lose faith (antichrists) were never saved, period.
Why do you argue against John?
The bible says in the last days people will depart from the faith. I am witnessing this today. My country used to be god fearing, myu country has departed from the faith, in fact, the world is departing. Churches who used to thrive and be leaders in comminities, I see empty, many have for sale signs up. Or some non denomination church who took over their building (not all of them are bad. Some are very good) but even they are small and almost inconsequential in the grand scheme
God said I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE
Either I HAVE ETERNAL life Or God lied.
CONDITIONAL LIFE does NOT EQUAL ETERNAL LIFE
Stop trying to make them equal.
Why do you argue against John?
The bible says in the last days people will depart from the faith. I am witnessing this today. My country used to be god fearing, myu country has departed from the faith, in fact, the world is departing. Churches who used to thrive and be leaders in comminities, I see empty, many have for sale signs up. Or some non denomination church who took over their building (not all of them are bad. Some are very good) but even they are small and almost inconsequential in the grand scheme
God said I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE
Either I HAVE ETERNAL life Or God lied.
CONDITIONAL LIFE does NOT EQUAL ETERNAL LIFE
Stop trying to make them equal.
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Studyman: "And I am more obedient today, than 27 years ago. Is that not "Growing in the Lord"?
Hi Studyman, stop with the bragging about how wonderful and obedient you are and how you have suffered so. Listen forum "never follow someone who does not exhibit true humility", why?, because their actions and words reveal they are in it for self satisfaction.
Watch for the signs; short definition of humility; real humility builds up, false humility tears down; Quote: "when there is a problem and the results aren't good; a humble leader looks in the mirror, not out the window."
The Jordan River where John baptized Jesus and so began the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ.
Examples of true Christian humility; He left his heavenly abode and tabernacled among men.
Jesus of Nazareth King of Kings and Lord of Lords and yet He humbled Himself and became a servant for you and I; He came not to be served but to serve and give His life as a ransom for many." (Matt20:28).
"Never follow anyone who does not exhibit signs of "True Humility", if you do your in for a rude awakening.
Hebrews12:2
"fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."
2Corinthians8:9
"For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich."
1Samuel16:7
"The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
Matthew20:28
"just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
Romans12:10
"Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Outdo yourselves in honoring one another."
Philippians2:3
"Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;"
Hi Studyman, stop with the bragging about how wonderful and obedient you are and how you have suffered so. Listen forum "never follow someone who does not exhibit true humility", why?, because their actions and words reveal they are in it for self satisfaction.
Watch for the signs; short definition of humility; real humility builds up, false humility tears down; Quote: "when there is a problem and the results aren't good; a humble leader looks in the mirror, not out the window."
The Jordan River where John baptized Jesus and so began the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ.
Examples of true Christian humility; He left his heavenly abode and tabernacled among men.
Jesus of Nazareth King of Kings and Lord of Lords and yet He humbled Himself and became a servant for you and I; He came not to be served but to serve and give His life as a ransom for many." (Matt20:28).
"Never follow anyone who does not exhibit signs of "True Humility", if you do your in for a rude awakening.
Hebrews12:2
"fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."
2Corinthians8:9
"For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich."
1Samuel16:7
"The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
Matthew20:28
"just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
Romans12:10
"Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Outdo yourselves in honoring one another."
Philippians2:3
"Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;"
You are the ones who should HUMBLY ACCEPT the WORD that is planted in you, which can SAVE you.
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How perfect. Thank you Lord for forcing TT to expose his true heart.
I am asked a question by someone else and answered as honestly as I can. You guys are so predictable. If I answer a question honestly, I am a braggart and self righteous. If I don't answer the question, I am avoiding the question and a reprobate. The only way to please you would be to lie in my answer. That is your righteousness, not the Christ's.
The only way to be accepted by you is to adhere to your religious traditions, many of which transgresses God's commandments. Why would I ever do that after all the Christ has done for me?
Has the Christ had an influence on my heart over the last 27 years? Absolutely. What influence would the Spirit of Christ have on a person? Did He not promise to write His Laws on my heart? WHY would He do that? So I could reject them and create images of God in likeness of men, and reject His Holy Commandments and create my own?
Or does He write His Laws on my heart so I can "Grow" into the perfect man as Jesus is the perfect man?
I'm not ashamed of His influence on my heart. And He said I would be hated and ridiculed. So I know I'm on the right tract.
I am asked a question by someone else and answered as honestly as I can. You guys are so predictable. If I answer a question honestly, I am a braggart and self righteous. If I don't answer the question, I am avoiding the question and a reprobate. The only way to please you would be to lie in my answer. That is your righteousness, not the Christ's.
The only way to be accepted by you is to adhere to your religious traditions, many of which transgresses God's commandments. Why would I ever do that after all the Christ has done for me?
Has the Christ had an influence on my heart over the last 27 years? Absolutely. What influence would the Spirit of Christ have on a person? Did He not promise to write His Laws on my heart? WHY would He do that? So I could reject them and create images of God in likeness of men, and reject His Holy Commandments and create my own?
Or does He write His Laws on my heart so I can "Grow" into the perfect man as Jesus is the perfect man?
I'm not ashamed of His influence on my heart. And He said I would be hated and ridiculed. So I know I'm on the right tract.
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This is the battle from the very beginning. On one hand you have religious man who creates their own path to eternity, the broad path. And on the other hand you have those men who understand how wicked our minds are and that the only cure is completely submit to the Word of God which became Flesh. The "many" has run roughshod over the few since Cain killed Abel, and the Congregation of the Lord wanted to stone Caleb.
Truly there is not New Thing under the sun.
Truly there is not New Thing under the sun.
Gotta love these workers for, law keepers and commandment doers.....they peddle a losable salvation that they must maintain by works and yet every day they do something that according to their dogma causes the loss of salvation....but have they ever lost it....NOPE BECAUSE they always maintain it by their faithfulness....The righteousness of Christ imputed by faith was not and is not sufficient because Jesus needs our help.....!!
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...These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that ONLY TOGETHER WITH US WOULD THEY BE MADE PERFECT. Hebrews 11:39-40
But there is now a very popular teaching that CLAIMS that ONCE a person has Faith ALONE, he is already SAVED and ALWAYS SAVED. They CLAIM to already POSSESS ETERNAL LIFE, JUSTIFIED, SANCTIFIED and PERFECTED forever. They also CLAIM that all their SINS in the PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE were all forgiven them thus ASKING GOD FOR FORGIVENESS IS NO LONGER NECESSARY.
While those souls under the altar of God in heaven eagerly awaits for their fellow servants and brothers and for God's judgment on the earth and even every true Christian awaits a Savior from heaven… these DREAMING SLEEPERS have run ahead...NEVER KNOWING WHERE THEY'RE GOING because the DARKNESS HAS BLINDED THEM.
...When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. Revelation 6:9-11
...Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. ANYONE WHO RUNS AHEAD and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work. 2 John 1:7-11
There is no contradiction between Paul and James. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).
In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. We cannot dissect good works from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18) So the not saved by "these" works (works of the law) but saved by "those" works (good works) argument is bogus.
James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).
In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. We cannot dissect good works from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18) So the not saved by "these" works (works of the law) but saved by "those" works (good works) argument is bogus.
How is it a bogus argument to say our salvation is maintained by "those" works when you yourself quoted Jesus commandment to help our neighbor?
What if I Continually reject helping my neighbor...
I Continually reject obeying Jesus' commands...
Am I still saved even though I pay no heed to God?
False, it does not hold the KJV usage of 'of', it is a different of, in the sense that in the KJV it implies that Christ has faith whilst the YLT implies that Christ is the method by which we obtain faith...sort of Calvinistic, really (I do respect a lot of Calvinism, to be up front).
Anyway, your gnat-straining is rather obvious, to me at least, but I feel this may stand as a good lesson for others. Thanks, "friend"
Anyway, your gnat-straining is rather obvious, to me at least, but I feel this may stand as a good lesson for others. Thanks, "friend"
God works in us.....
He doesn't DO everything for us as in predestination.
From beginning “have been saved through faith” (Ephesians 2:8) to end “receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls” (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not obtained or maintained by works. To say that you are born again, yet you continually reject helping your neighbor, obeying Jesus commands, and pay no heed to God whatsoever is an oxymoron. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful.
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Now Billy. Let's keep the context here. I was asked a question, and I answered it as honestly as I could. It was not boasting, it is just being honest.
I am not ashamed of the influence the Laws of God He wrote on my heart has had on me as He promised. And I believe in the Christ so I know the closer to the mind of Christ I have, the more the religious men of the earth will hate me and try to silence me. This truth is all over the Bible.
I am not amazed at how my statement regarding "Growing" in the Lord has garnered so much derision from some on this forum. I know TT and his pals with mock me for this answer. They would mock anything I would say, and they would mock me if I declined to answer.
But I was really hoping you might pick up on this as I believe you have considered some of the Biblical points I have tried to point out. "Many" claim a positive influence from the Christ on their lives. There is no accusation of boasting. Only when a man shares the positive influence in regards to obedience that they will attack. Obey is truly a four letter word in the religions of the land.
"Obedient to the Wrong things". I like that. Those who "practiced lawlessness" Jesus told us about were obedient to something, it just wasn't the Word of God. The Pharisees were "obedient to something" Jesus just said it wasn't the Word of God.
Zechariahs was also "obedient to something" and He knew Jesus when He came while these others did not know Jesus. Surely you can see the contrast.
I am not ashamed of the influence the Laws of God He wrote on my heart has had on me as He promised. And I believe in the Christ so I know the closer to the mind of Christ I have, the more the religious men of the earth will hate me and try to silence me. This truth is all over the Bible.
I am not amazed at how my statement regarding "Growing" in the Lord has garnered so much derision from some on this forum. I know TT and his pals with mock me for this answer. They would mock anything I would say, and they would mock me if I declined to answer.
But I was really hoping you might pick up on this as I believe you have considered some of the Biblical points I have tried to point out. "Many" claim a positive influence from the Christ on their lives. There is no accusation of boasting. Only when a man shares the positive influence in regards to obedience that they will attack. Obey is truly a four letter word in the religions of the land.
"Obedient to the Wrong things". I like that. Those who "practiced lawlessness" Jesus told us about were obedient to something, it just wasn't the Word of God. The Pharisees were "obedient to something" Jesus just said it wasn't the Word of God.
Zechariahs was also "obedient to something" and He knew Jesus when He came while these others did not know Jesus. Surely you can see the contrast.
It is utterly amazing how many people will make eternal and everlasting life conditional.....while ignoring irrevocable, uttermost, kept, nevet leave or forsake, lose nothing, begin, finish, complete, the words hid within etc......now we have Adolph Hitler in another thread calling the Jews-->Jesus killing scumbags....He should be removed for that verbiage!
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