Not By Works

[lightbearer]

You better damned follow God's commandments and not care, in the least, what a religious tradition has to say about anything. If it isn't Biblical, it ain't real, friend.

Through the heart, mind and mouth.; our very being through Christ. Not through the Letter; the Bible, the Book of the Law and Tables of Stone. But through the changed heart and mind through HIS Spirit through Christ. For it is GOD that works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure.

 

[lightbearer]

I'm not here to teach.
God forbid.
James 3:1

If we make our spirit or the Spirit heard my friend we are in affect teaching.

People in the O.T. were saved the same way people in the N.T. are:
BY FAITH.

End of story.

But we do have to obey God.

Amen!
But it is through Faith which is through HIM we both will and work HIS good pleasure.

 

[Endoscopy]

And I believe BOTH have serious FLAWS IN THEM. Proof is in HOW LONG THIS ARGUMENT CONTINUES and CONTINUES.


Proverbs 6:16-19 (NIV)
16 There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

Did you bother to read the Biblical Defense of each? Obviously not. The early elders created the creeds after looking at all of the diverse issues being debated by Christians. The creeds were created for 3 stated reasons.
1. Define what a Christian must believe.
2. Anything contrary is heresy.
3. Any Biblical issue outside of the creeds is to agree to disagree.

Thus using the last on we have several different gospel preaching denominations.

 

[Endoscopy]

Some Christians say that any attempt to obey God’s law amounts to legalism. Yet Jesus said if you really love God, you’ll do what He asks. So, is obedience really legalism?
God knows you and every person on earth better than we know ourselves. He takes a personal interest in every human being and sees all that we do. Not one word, thought, or deed is hidden from Him. “The very hairs of your head are all numbered” (Luke 12:7).

Is Obedience important?
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, ’shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven” (Matthew 7:21).
“If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17).
“He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him” (Hebrews 5:9).

Why is obedience important?
“Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it” (Matthew 7:14).
“He who sins against me wrongs his own soul; all those who hate me love death” (Proverbs 8:36).
“The LORD commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that He might preserve us alive” (Deuteronomy 6:24).
Only one path leads to God’s kingdom. All roads do not lead to the same place. The Bible is the map—a guidebook with all the instructions, warnings, and information on how to safely reach that kingdom. To disregard any of it leads us away from God and His kingdom. The universe of God is one of law and order—including natural, moral, and spiritual. Breaking any of these laws has fixed consequences. When ignored, they result in sickness, torment, and unhappiness of every kind. Thus, the words of the Bible are not merely advice that we can accept or ignore without consequences. A person cannot live any way he wishes and still become Christlike—any more than a builder can ignore the blueprints for a house without running into trouble. This is why God wants you to follow the blueprint of Holy Scripture. There is simply no other way to true happiness.

Can we keep the commandments, can we obey?
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find” (Matthew 7:7).
“Be diligent [study] to present yourself approved to God ... rightly dividing the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15).
“If any one wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God”(John 7:17).
“Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you” (John 12:35). “As soon as they hear of me they obey me” (Psalm 18:44).

God promises to keep you from error and lead you safely to all truth if you will 1. - pray earnestly for guidance,
2. - sincerely study God’s Word, and
3. - follow truth as soon as you are shown.
In our own strength we will fail but with Jesus we can overcome all things.

Can we be too particular or does God want us to be faithful in all points?
“Surely none of the men who came up from Egypt ... shall see the land ... because they have not wholly followed Me, except Caleb ... and Joshua ... for they have wholly followed the LORD” (Numbers32:11,12).
“Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God” (Matthew 4:4).
“You are My friends if you do whatever I command you” (John 15:14).
He is particular. God’s people in Old Testament times learned this the hard way. Those who left Egypt for the Promised Land were a multitude in number. Of this group, only two, Caleb and Joshua, fully followed the Lord, and they alone entered Canaan. The others died in the wilderness. Jesus said we are to live by “every word” of the Bible. There is not one commandment too many or one commandment too few. They are all important!
Some people think it is too hard or impossible to keep the law so God doesn’t expect us to try.
“With God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).
“I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me” (Philippians 4:13).
“Thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ” (2 Corinthians 2:14).
“He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5).
“If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land” (Isaiah 1:19).
None of us can obey in our own power, but through Christ we can and must. Satan, in order to make God’s requests appear unreasonable, invented the falsehood that obedience is impossible.
The Bible actually teaches that true love to God doesn’t really exist without obedience. Nor can a person be truly obedient without a love and appreciation for God. No child will fully obey his parents unless he loves them, nor will he show love to his parents if he does not obey. True love and obedience are like conjoined twins. When separated, they die.
“Jesus answered ... ‘If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word ... He who does not love Me does not keep My words’ ”(John 14:23, 24).
“This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

Doesn’t true freedom in Christ actually release us from obedience?
“If you abide in My word ... you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. ... Whoever commits sin is a slave of sin” (John 8:31,32,34).
“God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness” (Romans 6:17,18).
“So shall I keep Your law continually, forever and ever. And I will walk at liberty, for I seek Your precepts” (Psalm 119:44,45).
True freedom means freedom “from sin” (Romans 6:18), or disobedience, which is breaking God’s law (1 John 3:4). Therefore, true freedom comes only from obedience. The citizens who obey the law have freedom. The disobedient are caught and lose their freedom. Freedom without obedience is a false freedom—it leads to confusion and anarchy. True Christian freedom means freedom from disobedience. Disobedience always hurts a person and leads one into the cruel slavery of the devil.
“He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. ... In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God” (1 John 3:8, 10).
“Satan ... deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9).
The devil is responsible for disobedience. He knows that all disobedience is sin and that sin brings unhappiness, tragedy, alienation from God, and eventual destruction.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Praise God for the gift of Grace.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

How do we know what is sin? Sin is defined as transgression of the law. How many know what the law states? There are 613 laws scattered through the Torah. Breaking them is sin.

In addition to the 10 commandments there are the laws scattered through the Torah.

List of the 613 laws in the Torah
http://www.gods-word-first.org/bible-study/613commandments.html

Discussion about the 613 laws in the Torah
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

 

[mailmandan]

False. James is very clear, faith without works is dead. Deal with it.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

 

[lightbearer]

There are 613 laws scattered through the Torah. Breaking them is sin.

That is a man made number.

 

[Endoscopy]

Ah yes, the nonsense is just so blatant around here...the Christians in a daze...

I could care less what a theologian has to say about the matter. Christ == God. We have faith in God, God does not need to have faith in Himself, genius. Anyone who believes that is either a liar, a lunatic, or is stuck reading a poor translation.

It is obvious that you fail to understand the complexity of understanding what the scripture states about any issue. It is written as history except for some of the epistles. Even then it is not written issue by issue. Each issue is scattered through various parts of the Bible. What theologians attempt to do is piece together all scriptures on each issue to come up with a hopefully complete definition about each issue. There are systematic theology books that go issue by issue stating what the Bible says and listing every verse about that issue. Not all of these books come to the identical conclusion since it depends on the denomination the author(s) are from. The big thing is every verse on the issue is listed so you can look them up and come to your own conclusions.

 

[Endoscopy]

That is a man made number.

Maimonides searched the Torah and found that many mitzvot (rules). Since that time nobody has been able to find any more. Go ahead and try to find more. Why do you and others always put down what Godly men work diligently to piece together diverse scriptures to create a document taking into account all scripture related to that issue? Here is an issue for you to define. Which is more correct Calvinism or Arminianism? I will refute either choice with Biblical references even though they take completely opposing views.

 

[Endoscopy]

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

That is correct. James and Paul dealing with this issue are attempting to put Hebrew concepts into the Greek language and that frustrates them. Koine Greek is not a good language to describe Hebrew concepts. To help rectify this they use koine Judeo Greek attempting to put Hebrew concepts into it. Today Jews use Yiddish which is German with Hebrew concepts added. They modify any language that way. English is an exception since it comes from melting 4 different languages together. Celtics first Latin layered on, then German and finally French. Thus all of our convoluted rules. They come from each language for the words coming from that language. I took Latin in high school. In Latin us ending is masculine singular and ae pronounced long i is plural. Cactus plural was cactae until recently and now is cacti so people will pronounce it correctly.

 

[lightbearer]

Obviously not and I am not playing. Lucifer was a light; the morning star. Not a bearer of the Light; a lightbearer. Someone bearing the Light. Christ Jesus our LORD

Lucifer is latin not Hebrew. Isaiah was written in Hebrew. Are you Catholic?

The Hebrew word is pronounced hêylêl and it means morning star; shining one. This Lucifer; Heylel tried to shine all on his own and above HE that is, was, and forever shall be.

H1966 הֵילֵל heylel (hay-lale') n-m.
1. the morning-star
[from H1984 (in the sense of brightness)]
KJV: lucifer.
Root(s): H1984

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (Heylel), son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Wow, the nonsense continues.

Nonsense that the Hebrew word in which the Word of GOD came lucifer name means morning star in the sense of brightness?

lucifer Is not the morning star any longer and never will be again. It is a position of power, now being held by the LORD JESUS CHRIST, SAVIOR OF MANKIND, RULER OF ALL, CREATOR, ALPHA AND OMEGA, HE THAT SPEAKS THE END FROM THE BEGINNING, YWHW

lucifer's name means morning star. He only who only wished to exalt his throne above the stars (GOD's people) of GOD. He only desired to be like the MOST HIGH. This he can not and could not do to those who follow our MOST HIGH GOD; CREATOR and SUSTAINER of all that is in the Heavens and in the Earth.

The LXX; the Greek translation of Old Testament in Isaiah 14:12 uses the same Greek word used in 2Pet 1:19 for Day Star (Morning Star) to translate the Hebrew word translated lucifer; heylel in the KJV.

2Pet 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

From Thayer's unabridged
G5459
φωσφόρος, φωσφορον (φῶς and φέρω), light-bringing, giving light (Aristophanes, Euripides, Plato, Plutarch, others); as a substantive, ὁ φωσφόρος (Latin Lucifer), the planet Venus, the morning-star, day-star (Plato, Tim. Locr., p. 96 e.; Plutarch, others): 2Pe_1:19, on the meaning of this passage, see λύχνος.


From LSJ G5459
φώσφορ-ος
(parox.), ον, poet. φαοσφόρος Lyr.Adesp. in PLit.Lond. 51.5, φαεσφόρος Call. Dian. 204, etc.: —
bringing or giving light, Ἕως E. Ion 1157; φ. ἀστήρ, of Dionysus at the mysteries, Ar. Ra. 342 (lyr.); φ. πεῦκαι Id. Fr. 599; αἴγλη, Ἦμαρ, Orph. A. 1246, Εὐχή 24. Subst., ὁ φ. (sc. ἀστήρ), the light-bringer, i.e. the morning-star, a name specially given to the planet Venus, Ti.Locr. 96e, 97a, Arist. Mu. 392a27, 399a8, Cic. ND 2.20.53, Ph. 1.504, cf. Alex.Eph. ap. Theo Sm. p.138H.
2. of the eye, φ. ὄμματα Pl. Ti. 45b; φ. κόραι, of the Cyclops, E. Cyc. 611 (lyr.). name of an eye-salve, Gal. 12.747.
II torch-bearing, epith. of certain deities, esp. of Hecate, E. Hel. 569, Ar. Th. 858, Fr. 594a; φ. θεά (sc. Ἄρτεμις) E. IT 21, cf. Call.l.c.; νὴ τὴν Φωσφόρον Ar. Lys. 443, Antiph. 58.6; of Hephaestus, Orph. H. 66.3: pl., ἱερεὺς Φωσφόρων Hesperia 4.49 (Athens, ii A. D.).
III φωσφόρος, ἡ, torch-bearer, title of a priestess, Κλεοπάτρας θεᾶς PRein. 10.8, etc. (ii B. C.).

 

[lightbearer]

Maimonides searched the Torah and found that many mitzvot (rules).

It is a man made list. Commentary at best.

 

[Endoscopy]

Your handle name is lucifer. If you were a Christian, you would be appalled and change it immediately. Seeing as you are a 'senior member', I doubt I'm the first to bring it to your attention, actor.

Disgusting!!! You deliberately ignore his good reasons to use that name. It has nothing to do with Lucifer. Only in your mind. I saw his name and immediately thought of bearing the light to make the dark dissappear.

 

[Endoscopy]

It is a man made list. Commentary at best.

All documents are created by man. Are you saying the doctrinal statements your church and denomination create to explain their stand on Biblical issues should be thrown out. How about the creeds? In point of fact it was a list of verses in the Bible. Oops the Bible was written by men. Throw that out as well. You foolish ranters give me a pain where I sit.

 

[lightbearer]

All documents are created by man. Are you saying the doctrinal statements your church and denomination create to explain their stand on Biblical issues should be thrown out. How about the creeds? Oops the Bible was written by men. Throw that out as well.

Not all is by the the Spirit. Some is just by man. We are to discern the Spirit through the Spirit.

Sadly it all can be rather subjective. I pray for our our LORD's objectivity!

 

[Endoscopy]

I agree.

But Doesn't our "works" define our faith? Don't we come to the Light to "know" if our works are wrought in God or not?

It is written "And hereby we do know that we know him". Should we find out just How we know, according to His Word, if our Faith is saving Faith? True faith in God?

There is the concept in the Bible that since God can see into our heart our best works are as filthy rags to the purity of God. That is why he gave us grace. With grace through faith in Jesus God sees us as cleansed from sin.

 

[Endoscopy]

Not all is by the the Spirit. Some is just by man. We are to discern the Spirit through the Spirit.

Sadly it all can be rather subjective. I pray for our our LORD's objectivity!

Quibbling! The issue is a list diligently created of the mitzvot (rules aka laws) that are verses of scripture in the Torah that historically no one has been able to add to for centuries is in error or not in error. Scripture not man made concepts.

 

[lightbearer]

Quibbling! The issue is a list diligently created of the mitzvot (rules aka laws) that are verses of scripture in the Torah that historically no one has been able to add to for centuries is in error or not in error. Scripture not man made concepts.

The list is man made.

 

[Endoscopy]

i cringe when i hear preachers switch from plain English to "kjv-speech" when they close their sermons with a prayer...

.. on the other hand my own wife sometimes says 'thee' and 'thy' and i know when she does she's trying to express the utmost sincerity of her love to me.
e.g. she says, "i love you" often, and of course she means it, but it's kind of everyday or ordinary. sometimes she says "i love thee" and when she does, i know she is in those moments full of emotion. i know, even though it might be in a text or written on paper, that if i heard her say it i would hear something in her voice that's different, see something in her eyes that's more.

but maybe 100% of the time i hear someone give a sermon in regular, normal, common English, and suddenly start speaking like they're trying to quote Shakespeare from a foggy memory as soon as the start to pray into their microphone, i don't hear emotion. i hear pretentiousness & facade. and i cringe!

I have many issues with KJV since it is 400 years out of date with language changes and current information about the animal and plant kingdoms. When people use thee and thou they are using KJV terminology and trying to make their feelings more plain. Menonnites and other related denominations do this.

 

[lightbearer]

Quibbling! The issue is a list diligently created of the mitzvot (rules aka laws) that are verses of scripture in the Torah that historically no one has been able to add to for centuries is in error or not in error. Scripture not man made concepts.

Nonsensical at times too. For example the Scripture reference for the first one does not add up to what they say in it.
1. Believe in Yahweh as the Only Source of Power in the Universe. (Exo_20:2)
Exod 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Nothing in it in regards to believing in YHWH as the only true source of power in the universe.

Neither does the second add up to the Scriptural reference.

2. Submit to Yahweh as the Supreme Head, to be in unity with Yahweh. (Deu_6:4)
Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Even if we consider verse 5 it still does not hold up.
Deut 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

However if we Love GOD we will submit.

 

[Endoscopy]

♪♫
this is my story, this is my song -- praising my Saviour all the day long!

One of my favorite hymns!!