Not By Works

[VCO]

Right, but works without faith is dead. Just as faith without works is dead. Both depend on the other.

That is a misinterpretation of what JAMES meant.

He said AFTER YOU ARE GENUINELY SAVED [past tense] you will exhibit the kind of LOVE that is easily identified by the SPIRITUAL FRUIT, which is your works, {also see: 1 John 3:14-19}. If you really WERE NOT SAVED, that LOVING Example, will not be there.

You cannot have JAMES CONTRADICTING OTHER WRITERS of the NEW TESTAMENT. Let me show you what I MEAN:

James 2:20-24 (HCSB)
20 Foolish man! Are you willing to learn that faith without works is useless?
21 Wasn’t Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.
23 So the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness, and he was called God’s friend.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


And you would take those verses alone and say, "SEE THERE, we are too SAVED by our WORKS and Faith."

NOT SO FAST! First of all, I want to examine this portion of Scripture, and then I want to take you to some parallel portions of scripture.

WHEN DOES THOSE ABOVE VERSES SAY THAT ABRAHAM WAS SAVED ? ? ? IT SAYS that ABRAHAM was CREDITED to him for RIGHTEOUSNESS, WHEN HE BELIEVED GOD. HE BELIEVED GOD, WITHOUT DOUBTINGLY, LONG BEFORE HE EVER OFFERED ISAAC ON THAT ALTAR. So what was that verse 21 ALL ABOUT? It is the REAL EVIDENCE that ABRAHAM's SALVATION was Genuine LONG BEFORE he offered up Isaac. IN FACT, ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD COULD RAISE UP ISAAC IF HE DID OFFER HIM AS A SACRIFICE AS GOD HAD ASKED. AND HE BELIEVED GOD, LONG BEFORE ANYONE OF THIS STORY TOOK PLACE. IT IS NOTHING MORE THAN, "I AM WILLING TO SHOW YOU THAT MY FAITH WAS GENUINE FROM THE MOMENT THAT GOD PUT FAITH IN ME, WHICH IS THE MOMENT I WAS SAVED, by the works that I know do.

Now let's look at the Parallel verses:

First we need to go to a verse that shows Abraham's FAITH, long before this particular story:

Hebrews 11:8-11 (HCSB)
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed and went out to a place he was going to receive as an inheritance. He went out, not knowing where he was going.
9 By faith he stayed as a foreigner in the land of promise, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, coheirs of the same promise.
10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11 By faith even Sarah herself, when she was unable to have children, received power to conceive offspring, even though she was past the age, since she considered that the One who had promised was faithful.

So, LONG BEFORE ISAAC WAS BORN, ABRAHAM had that Faith that was Credited for Righteousness.

Hebrews 11:17-19 (HCSB)
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac. He received the promises and he was offering his unique son,
18 the one it had been said about, Your seed will be traced through Isaac.
19 He considered God to be able even to raise someone from the dead, and as an illustration, he received him back.

Romans 4:3-5 (HCSB)
3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
4 Now to the one who works {for his salvation or to add to it}, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous,
his faith is credited for righteousness.

Notice that FAITH is Credited for Righteousness, LONG BEFORE any works can be shown. Therefore WORKS are NOT part of SALVATION, but rather the FRUIT OF LOVE or OBVIOUS EVIDENCE, that YOUR SALVATION was REAL from the first moment that GOD placed FAITH in your Heart [human spirit] when you HEARD the WORD with understanding in your HEART, not with the brain you have between your ears.

Galatians 3:6-7 (ESV)
6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.

Notice, that DOES NOT MEAN WE BECOME SPIRITUAL ISRAELITES.

It simply means we become the offspring of Abraham's Faith.

 

[Studyman]

I believe the Word of God which tells me nothing can separate me from Him. Once saved, always saved. If there are many who claim Him yet do not know Him, they were never saved to begin with.

I understand what you are saying. I also know there is not one person ever on the planet who called the Christ Lord, Lord, that didn't truly believe they we saved. But I also know that Jesus Himself said not every one who claims to be saved, are saved.

Those who the Christ spoke of in Matt. 7 carried their belief to the grave. But even though they believed they were saved, they were not. It's too late to finally believe the warnings after we die.

I just think since we are to believe in Him for salvation, should be believe all His Word's, even His Word's of warning, and not just take some religious man's word regarding the salvation of our selves and our family.

As He said. "Man shall "live by" EVERY WORD of God".

These are His Word's as well.

 

[star]

I understand what you are saying. I also know there is not one person ever on the planet who called the Christ Lord, Lord, that didn't truly believe they we saved. But I also know that Jesus Himself said not every one who claims to be saved, are saved.

Those who the Christ spoke of in Matt. 7 carried their belief to the grave. But even though they believed they were saved, they were not. It's too late to finally believe the warnings after we die.

I just think since we are to believe in Him for salvation, should be believe all His Word's, even His Word's of warning, and not just take some religious man's word regarding the salvation of our selves and our family.

As He said. "Man shall "live by" EVERY WORD of God".

These are His Word's as well.

A person who commits their soul to the Lord Jesus Christ and accept Him as their savior, they are saved. As for all of God's Word, that is where I get my comfort from; knowing I'm saved. The Pharisees believed in their traditions, works, etc and perhaps they believed they would go to heaven. They believed in the wrong thing. One either has faith (believing) in Christ as their Lord and knows they are saved or one does not. Faith, believing is the point.

 

[dcontroversal]

Sure, Noah preached, some at least, but he also built a boat to survive the flood. I'm telling you, the rain is coming, better start building something.

I came here for the sole purpose of finding a few like minded people. I made a post under the 'conspiracy' section concerning the end times. Perhaps you might find something of value in it.

Oh I believe it is coming and I personally believe post Great Trib pre Wrath ingathering at the 7th trump of Revelation....you might find with me that I believe 4 things kill tribulation saints and I also believe we can do something about 3 of the 4.........but that is for another thread or behind the scenes messaging.....!!

 

[dcontroversal]

Some Christians say that any attempt to obey God’s law amounts to legalism. Yet Jesus said if you really love God, you’ll do what He asks. So, is obedience really legalism?
God knows you and every person on earth better than we know ourselves. He takes a personal interest in every human being and sees all that we do. Not one word, thought, or deed is hidden from Him. “The very hairs of your head are all numbered” (Luke 12:7).

Is Obedience important?
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, ’shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven” (Matthew 7:21).
“If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17).
“He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him” (Hebrews 5:9).

Why is obedience important?
“Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it” (Matthew 7:14).
“He who sins against me wrongs his own soul; all those who hate me love death” (Proverbs 8:36).
“The LORD commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that He might preserve us alive” (Deuteronomy 6:24).
Only one path leads to God’s kingdom. All roads do not lead to the same place. The Bible is the map—a guidebook with all the instructions, warnings, and information on how to safely reach that kingdom. To disregard any of it leads us away from God and His kingdom. The universe of God is one of law and order—including natural, moral, and spiritual. Breaking any of these laws has fixed consequences. When ignored, they result in sickness, torment, and unhappiness of every kind. Thus, the words of the Bible are not merely advice that we can accept or ignore without consequences. A person cannot live any way he wishes and still become Christlike—any more than a builder can ignore the blueprints for a house without running into trouble. This is why God wants you to follow the blueprint of Holy Scripture. There is simply no other way to true happiness.

Can we keep the commandments, can we obey?
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find” (Matthew 7:7).
“Be diligent [study] to present yourself approved to God ... rightly dividing the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15).
“If any one wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God”(John 7:17).
“Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you” (John 12:35). “As soon as they hear of me they obey me” (Psalm 18:44).

God promises to keep you from error and lead you safely to all truth if you will 1. - pray earnestly for guidance,
2. - sincerely study God’s Word, and
3. - follow truth as soon as you are shown.
In our own strength we will fail but with Jesus we can overcome all things.

Can we be too particular or does God want us to be faithful in all points?
“Surely none of the men who came up from Egypt ... shall see the land ... because they have not wholly followed Me, except Caleb ... and Joshua ... for they have wholly followed the LORD” (Numbers32:11,12).
“Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God” (Matthew 4:4).
“You are My friends if you do whatever I command you” (John 15:14).
He is particular. God’s people in Old Testament times learned this the hard way. Those who left Egypt for the Promised Land were a multitude in number. Of this group, only two, Caleb and Joshua, fully followed the Lord, and they alone entered Canaan. The others died in the wilderness. Jesus said we are to live by “every word” of the Bible. There is not one commandment too many or one commandment too few. They are all important!
Some people think it is too hard or impossible to keep the law so God doesn’t expect us to try.
“With God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).
“I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me” (Philippians 4:13).
“Thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ” (2 Corinthians 2:14).
“He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5).
“If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land” (Isaiah 1:19).
None of us can obey in our own power, but through Christ we can and must. Satan, in order to make God’s requests appear unreasonable, invented the falsehood that obedience is impossible.
The Bible actually teaches that true love to God doesn’t really exist without obedience. Nor can a person be truly obedient without a love and appreciation for God. No child will fully obey his parents unless he loves them, nor will he show love to his parents if he does not obey. True love and obedience are like conjoined twins. When separated, they die.
“Jesus answered ... ‘If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word ... He who does not love Me does not keep My words’ ”(John 14:23, 24).
“This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

Doesn’t true freedom in Christ actually release us from obedience?
“If you abide in My word ... you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. ... Whoever commits sin is a slave of sin” (John 8:31,32,34).
“God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness” (Romans 6:17,18).
“So shall I keep Your law continually, forever and ever. And I will walk at liberty, for I seek Your precepts” (Psalm 119:44,45).
True freedom means freedom “from sin” (Romans 6:18), or disobedience, which is breaking God’s law (1 John 3:4). Therefore, true freedom comes only from obedience. The citizens who obey the law have freedom. The disobedient are caught and lose their freedom. Freedom without obedience is a false freedom—it leads to confusion and anarchy. True Christian freedom means freedom from disobedience. Disobedience always hurts a person and leads one into the cruel slavery of the devil.
“He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. ... In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God” (1 John 3:8, 10).
“Satan ... deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9).
The devil is responsible for disobedience. He knows that all disobedience is sin and that sin brings unhappiness, tragedy, alienation from God, and eventual destruction.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Praise God for the gift of Grace.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Nice wall of text and no one here in this thread believes it is legalistic to serve the Lord.....the legalistic rigmarole comes into play when the workers for, Cainologists and Pharisees tie salvation by grace thru faith to some legalistic law/commandment keeping drivel and or works in order to gain, maintain or keep salvation.

 

[dcontroversal]

Concerning the argument about Christ having faith.....a few points to ponder...

a. He was not dealt faith in MEASURE as all men have been dealt.

b. The word "of"0 can be translated of or from and both indicate source....Christ is the source of faith

 

[dcontroversal]

fellowship, growing in knowledge of God, etc

originally i found this forum several years ago because i was researching eclectic Christian music and one band i was trying to find, google-search only had like 4 hits, and one of them was someone in the music section mentioning them. can't even remember the band or the thread or anything now lol

came for the food, stayed because i found family. 'wherever two or more are gathered..'
i've learned alot, and i discovered i actually knew some things that some other people didn't so lo and behold, i was sometimes useful. not often, but sometimes hahaha
plus, there's a lack of mathematicians, so i could fill a role

put it this way:
i study sword fighting. longsword specifically.
a huge part of doing that is practice. how do you get good at wielding a sword? spar. hear what masters have to say. watch others spar. train. constant use, building muscle-memory. actual engagement.
we have a sword, the Spirit, the Word. i'm not a complete idiot ((only partial)) -- so how do i gain skillfulness with it? same thing.
hence, Bible forum denizen.

Hahahah amen...me...on occasion I use a scapel, a sword and once in a while when the enemy is rank and file deep I pull out the axe hahahahhahah

 

[dcontroversal]

He does acknowledge Jesus is Salvation, even though over the course of some 13 months of him talking at me i have become quite certain he does not understand the gospel.

One thing people need to get over....there is but one correct message that = biblical salvation......to embellish the message beyond grace through faith for = a false gospel with no power to save......

Many (plenteous in number) will come before Jesus claiming and believing...

a. They know Jesus as Lord and call him Lord

b. They fully expect to enter based upon all the good things they have done in his name

Their gospel was false and they will not make the cut.....

MOST so called "Christian Religions" peddle the above false gospel...they calim Jesus as Lord and they believe GOOD WORKS in his name is part of the equation!

 

[BillG]

A person who commits their soul to the Lord Jesus Christ and accept Him as their savior, they are saved. As for all of God's Word, that is where I get my comfort from; knowing I'm saved. The Pharisees believed in their traditions, works, etc and perhaps they believed they would go to heaven. They believed in the wrong thing. One either has faith (believing) in Christ as their Lord and knows they are saved or one does not. Faith, believing is the point.

And what does such a person do or want to do as result?

BE LIKE JESUS, not because they have to but because they want to.
We love and do because he first loved us.
We can never earn his love for us because he has always loved us

 

[posthuman]

And what does such a person do or want to do as result?

BE LIKE JESUS, not because they have to but because they want to.
We love and do because he first loved us.
We can never earn his love for us because he has always loved us

Jesus says in John 3 ((just before the super famous verse)) that He must be lifted up just as the serpent in the wilderness, so that all who believe will be saved.

so imagine you're among the Jews in the exodus, and all around you people are dying by the hundreds every day by snakebite.
imagine you've been bit too - you're poisoned. you're in excruciating pain and you know 100% that you are going to die from this. everyone knows it; everyone knows someone who has bitten, and everyone poisoned dies in pain and agony.
God has told Moses that whoever looks to the brazen image of the very thing that your suffering has risen from, will live.

so imagine you believe that. imagine you're poisoned, and you're looking at the image on the piece of wood that's been lifted up.
what are you thinking?
are you thinking about how much you want to sin? you planning some wicked acts? your mind full of thoughts about how you're going to live in iniquity from here on out?

lol

nah, nah i don't think this is the sort of thing you are thinking about in that situation.

 

[lukeabers]

That is a misinterpretation of what JAMES meant.

He said AFTER YOU ARE GENUINELY SAVED [past tense] you will exhibit the kind of LOVE that is easily identified by the SPIRITUAL FRUIT, which is your works, {also see: 1 John 3:14-19}. If you really WERE NOT SAVED, that LOVING Example, will not be there.

You cannot have JAMES CONTRADICTING OTHER WRITERS of the NEW TESTAMENT. Let me show you what I MEAN:

James 2:20-24 (HCSB)
20 Foolish man! Are you willing to learn that faith without works is useless?
21 Wasn’t Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.
23 So the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness, and he was called God’s friend.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


And you would take those verses alone and say, "SEE THERE, we are too SAVED by our WORKS and Faith."

NOT SO FAST! First of all, I want to examine this portion of Scripture, and then I want to take you to some parallel portions of scripture.

WHEN DOES THOSE ABOVE VERSES SAY THAT ABRAHAM WAS SAVED ? ? ? IT SAYS that ABRAHAM was CREDITED to him for RIGHTEOUSNESS, WHEN HE BELIEVED GOD. HE BELIEVED GOD, WITHOUT DOUBTINGLY, LONG BEFORE HE EVER OFFERED ISAAC ON THAT ALTAR. So what was that verse 21 ALL ABOUT? It is the REAL EVIDENCE that ABRAHAM's SALVATION was Genuine LONG BEFORE he offered up Isaac. IN FACT, ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD COULD RAISE UP ISAAC IF HE DID OFFER HIM AS A SACRIFICE AS GOD HAD ASKED. AND HE BELIEVED GOD, LONG BEFORE ANYONE OF THIS STORY TOOK PLACE. IT IS NOTHING MORE THAN, "I AM WILLING TO SHOW YOU THAT MY FAITH WAS GENUINE FROM THE MOMENT THAT GOD PUT FAITH IN ME, WHICH IS THE MOMENT I WAS SAVED, by the works that I know do.

Now let's look at the Parallel verses:

First we need to go to a verse that shows Abraham's FAITH, long before this particular story:

Hebrews 11:8-11 (HCSB)
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed and went out to a place he was going to receive as an inheritance. He went out, not knowing where he was going.
9 By faith he stayed as a foreigner in the land of promise, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, coheirs of the same promise.
10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11 By faith even Sarah herself, when she was unable to have children, received power to conceive offspring, even though she was past the age, since she considered that the One who had promised was faithful.

So, LONG BEFORE ISAAC WAS BORN, ABRAHAM had that Faith that was Credited for Righteousness.

Hebrews 11:17-19 (HCSB)
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac. He received the promises and he was offering his unique son,
18 the one it had been said about, Your seed will be traced through Isaac.
19 He considered God to be able even to raise someone from the dead, and as an illustration, he received him back.

Romans 4:3-5 (HCSB)
3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
4 Now to the one who works {for his salvation or to add to it}, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous,
his faith is credited for righteousness.

Notice that FAITH is Credited for Righteousness, LONG BEFORE any works can be shown. Therefore WORKS are NOT part of SALVATION, but rather the FRUIT OF LOVE or OBVIOUS EVIDENCE, that YOUR SALVATION was REAL from the first moment that GOD placed FAITH in your Heart [human spirit] when you HEARD the WORD with understanding in your HEART, not with the brain you have between your ears.

Galatians 3:6-7 (ESV)
6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.

Notice, that DOES NOT MEAN WE BECOME SPIRITUAL ISRAELITES.

It simply means we become the offspring of Abraham's Faith.

False. James is very clear, faith without works is dead. Deal with it.

 

[dcontroversal]

Jesus says in John 3 ((just before the super famous verse)) that He must be lifted up just as the serpent in the wilderness, so that all who believe will be saved.

so imagine you're among the Jews in the exodus, and all around you people are dying by the hundreds every day by snakebite.
imagine you've been bit too - you're poisoned. you're in excruciating pain and you know 100% that you are going to die from this. everyone knows it; everyone knows someone who has bitten, and everyone poisoned dies in pain and agony.
God has told Moses that whoever looks to the brazen image of the very thing that your suffering has risen from, will live.

so imagine you believe that. imagine you're poisoned, and you're looking at the image on the piece of wood that's been lifted up.
what are you thinking?
are you thinking about how much you want to sin? you planning some wicked acts? your mind full of thoughts about how you're going to live in iniquity from here on out?

lol

nah, nah i don't think this is the sort of thing you are thinking about in that situation.

and just think...the SIMPLE TRUTH...ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS TURN AND LOOK UPON THE BRAZEN SERPENT.....no works, no law keeping, no religious hoop jumping.....SIMPLY LOOK UPON THE SERPENT BELIEIVING THEY WOULD BE HEALED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Argueless]

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)

...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13

...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.

The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.

Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?

 

[dcontroversal]

False. James is very clear, faith without works is dead. Deal with it.

James deals with the mere belief that there is a God contrasted against true saving faith, He addresses the Jewish tribes scattered and to this day they believe in God bit have no saving faith....James does not teach salvation by works, nor does he teach a man is justified before God by works.....and there is no contradiction...

Paul, Romans, before God a man is justified by FAITH without the deeds/works of the law

James, the above saving faith that justifies before God without the deeds/works of the law can be seen by men based upon works

How many works does it take?

He that BELIEVES on the Son has already done the work of the Heavenly Father.

 

[dcontroversal]

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)

...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13

...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.

The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.

Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?

Seoche posts the same drivel....the answer to your last question is God

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe!

What you peddle->>It pleased god by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe, are immersed, back flip pews, do many wonderful works, believe they obey and keep the law/commandments, religiously hoop jump, sing 57 verses of Just as I am, say 45 hail mary's, take sacrament, kiss the pope's ring and then they may be saved at the end....

blah blah blah....My bible equates faith to salvation....why not go look at the brazen serpent lifted and tell me whay they had to do....LOOK UPON IT IN BELIEF THEY WOULD BE HEALED....

Wake up falsie!!!

 

[star]

And what does such a person do or want to do as result?

BE LIKE JESUS, not because they have to but because they want to.
We love and do because he first loved us.
We can never earn his love for us because he has always loved us

Absolutely. Service, working for the Lord is what is in our hearts and on our minds after salvation. We work not for that free gift but we work because of it.

 

[VCO]

False. James is very clear, faith without works is dead. Deal with it.

Here are some Commentaries on JAMES 2:20, I suspect that YOU NEVER READ:

Dallas Theological Seminary's Commentary.

2:20. James did not launch into a lengthy refutation of the respondent. The apostle simply addressed him forcefully, You foolish man, and returned to his original argument that faith without deeds is useless (argē, "lazy, idle, negligent"). The adjective "foolish" (kene) is usually translated "vain," "empty," or "hollow" (cf. mataios, "worthless, fruitless, useless," in 1:26). Flimsy faith is dead; so are empty, faithless works. James' argument is not pro-works/anti-faith or pro-faith/anti-works. He has simply said that genuine faith is accompanied by good works. Spiritual works are the evidence, not the energizer, of sincere faith.


The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

Now Dr. J Vernon McGee, makes a POINT AFTER YOU ARE GENUINELY SAVED, you Born Again Human Spirit will PRODUCE FRUIT, and the Primary FRUIT of the SPIRIT IS LOVE.

Faith without the fruit of faith is empty and futile as far as the world is concerned.


Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

Now Dr. John MacArthur explains that Genuine Faith results in SALVATION before ANY GOOD WORKS CAN BE Produced, BUT after Salvation you will always have Good Works.

He was saying, in effect, to anyone opposing the truth he was declaring about true salvation, "You claim to have faith and that nothing else is necessary, that your faith can stand by itself before God and bring salvation. But the truth is, you cannot show me your faith without the works, without any practical evidence or outworking of it, because true faith always gives practical evidence. You cannot demonstrate your kind of faith because you have nothing to demonstrate it with." As just stated in the previous verse, "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself." Such faith is not really faith at all, certainly not saving faith. As noted above, living faith produces good fruit, for that is its nature and its purpose. Dead faith does not because it cannot.
MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – James.

After we HAVE BEEN SAVED, the proof that it was real is that we WILL REACH OUT TO OTHERS with our CHRISTIAN LOVE.

Dr. John Phillips Commentary:

James was not asking his readers to make a decision based on intellectual assent to known truth—to do good because it was the coldly logical thing to do. What he wanted was for them to respond because they had a natural, emotional, impulsive realization that faith without works was dead. In other words, the person who truly believes the gospel will instinctively reach out to others.
John Phillips Commentary Series, The - The John Phillips Commentary Series – Exploring the Epistle of James: An Expository Commentary.

That Instinct to Reach Out to others, is Product of the Spiritual Fruit the Holy Spirit produces in us, AFTER SALVATION.

HOWEVER, SALVATION Happens the MOMENT WE GENUINELY BELIEVE. The Holy Spirit COMES IN and gives our HUMAN SPIRIT ETERNAL LIFE. THEN AND ONLY THEN, will we be able to reach out in LOVE, that very same LOVE that GOD had the HOLY SPIRIT POUR INTO OUR HEARTS, Rom. 5:5. In other words, Obedience is a Product of Genuine LOVE, and NOT that which SAVES US.

 

[Argueless]

Seoche posts the same drivel....the answer to your last question is God

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe!

What you peddle->>It pleased god by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe, are immersed, back flip pews, do many wonderful works, believe they obey and keep the law/commandments, religiously hoop jump, sing 57 verses of Just as I am, say 45 hail mary's, take sacrament, kiss the pope's ring and then they may be saved at the end....

blah blah blah....My bible equates faith to salvation....why not go look at the brazen serpent lifted and tell me whay they had to do....LOOK UPON IT IN BELIEF THEY WOULD BE HEALED....

Wake up falsie!!!

My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speakand slow to become angry, 20 for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. James 1:19-21

Taming the Tongue
...Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check. When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell. All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man, but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

Two Kinds of Wisdom
...Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice. But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness. James 3:1-18

...Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. Luke 6:22

...If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 1 John 4:20

 

[lightbearer]

Absolutely. Service, working for the Lord is what is in our hearts and on our minds after salvation. We work not for that free gift but we work because of it.

Exactly. We our a new creation in Christ Jesus. Behold all things are new and of God. Reconciled; we have a new heart, mind and mouth which we received through HIS Spirit. Through Christ we both will and work HIS good pleasure. Our conscience also bearing witness we ARE sons of GOD.

 

[lightbearer]

its crazy !

lots of know it alls in here too ugggg

And worse yet labeling; judging.