The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

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lukeabers said:
I'm saying throw it all out, start again, with the beginning of sorrows. Tell me what it says, not what you've been told that it means.
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The beginning of sorrows is a sign the end is near.

Not that tribulation has begun,

That will occure after the abomination which causes desolation. (Jesus said when you see the abomination stanind in the holy place. THEN there will be great tribulation such as has never been seen) The temple has not even been rebuilt yet. So again, Your point is confusing, what does it prove?
 
lukeabers said:
To my eye, that is what you asked for. God is...morbidly hilarious in the sense that...He really does not care if we die...at all. For those with faith, that makes sense...

"And they cried out in a loud voice,“How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed." Revelation 6:10-11

Yea, God, not too concerned with physical death of immortal beings. Kind of hilarious, really.
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I my years of study many things seem strange.
But God sees things through a eternal prism.
We do not.
We have to get on track with him.
He does care,but everything seen must die at some point. It is us that should long to ne with him. Or die. Bit that in its proper place.
Paul said he was torn between the two
 
eternally-gratefull said:
The beginning of sorrows is a sign the end is near.

Not that tribulation has begun,

That will occure after the abomination which causes desolation. (Jesus said when you see the abomination stanind in the holy place. THEN there will be great tribulation such as has never been seen) The temple has not even been rebuilt yet. So again, Your point is confusing, what does it prove?
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"For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." Matthew 24:7-9

Beginning of Sorrows = The beginning of the end.

No two ways around it. The Scripture makes that statement, undeniably.
 
Absolutely said:
I my years of study many things seem strange.
But God sees things through a eternal prism.
We do not.
We have to get on track with him.
He does care,but everything seen must die at some point. It is us that should long to ne with him. Or die. Bit that in its proper place.
Paul said he was torn between the two
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God...cares, yes, but...considering He could put a stop to it, there is a very good reason why He is not...and in the final calculation, we are expendable on Earth. The Egyptian Coptic Christians know that full well...as they are currently under assault.

Martyrdom...Christ did it, you are not better than Him.
 
lukeabers said:
God...cares, yes, but...considering He could put a stop to it, there is a very good reason why He is not...and in the final calculation, we are expendable on Earth. The Egyptian Coptic Christians know that full well...as they are currently under assault.

Martyrdom...Christ did it, you are not better than Him.
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There is even more in Foxes Book Of Martyrs.

Actually martyrdom is an honor.
 
Absolutely said:
There is even more in Foxes Nook Of Martyrs.

Actually martyrdom is an honor.
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I hope, when my day comes, and the torturers are sharpening their knives for me that I can remember to shout some obscenity about your comment about honor ;)

Obviously it is the highest achievement, but to think any of us are strong enough to endure it...maybe you can, I don't know, but I fear the day.
 
lukeabers said:
"For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." Matthew 24:7-9

Beginning of Sorrows = The beginning of the end.

No two ways around it. The Scripture makes that statement, undeniably.
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Matt 24:
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the[c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The tribulation starts AFTER the abomination of desolation. No two ways about it.
 
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lukeabers said:
I hope, when my day comes, and the torturers are sharpening their knives for me that I can remember to shout some obscenity about your comment about honor ;)

Obviously it is the highest achievement, but to think any of us are strong enough to endure it...maybe you can, I don't know, but I fear the day.
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Lol
You are human
We accept martyrdom through the power of God. He meets us in martyrdom.
In Foxes B O M ,some of them sang while burning alive. Never felt a thing.
Glorious!
 
eternally-gratefull said:
Matt 24:
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the[c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The tribulation starts AFTER the abomination of desolation. No two ways about it.
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False, the abomination of desolation is late game. That occurs when the antichrist has made his pagan sacrifice in the temple and things are about to get real. The first seal has already been broken by the beginning of sorrows.
 
mobius8curve said:
In order for you to say something as ignorant as this proves you do not understand the difference between the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd heaven:

"And since Jesus sends his angels to gather them in heaven,not earth,we MUST be seeing rev 19"

I am not even going to attempt to teach you the difference but I will provide Mark's account with Matthew's so just maybe you will grasp some clues:

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25) And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
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Jesus himself said it.
Pretty devasting to see it.

Yes mark adds " earth"

So to go with your deal we will take the 2 heavens out and just go with what fits your doctrine

So your one verse is spinning furiously for traction.
 
Dan 9:
And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a [k]covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the [l]desolate.”

Nation shall rise and kingdoms shall be against kingdoms.

This was prophesied to occure from the destruction of jerusalem until the end. Daniel was told of it here in chapter 9

THEN, The 7 year treaty is confirmed, in the middle of that year. The abomination, then the great tribulation. Which will be so sever an extinction event is possible (most likely nulear) that christ will have to return to put an dend to it. To SPARE the lived of the ELECT
 
eternally-gratefull said:
Dan 9:
And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a [k]covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the [l]desolate.”

Nation shall rise and kingdoms shall be against kingdoms.

This was prophesied to occure from the destruction of jerusalem until the end. Daniel was told of it here in chapter 9

THEN, The 7 year treaty is confirmed, in the middle of that year. The abomination, then the great tribulation. Which will be so sever an extinction event is possible (most likely nulear) that christ will have to return to put an dend to it. To SPARE the lived of the ELECT
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It doesn't say 7 years, it says 1 week. For me, that is a prophecy for a later date. Right now, we are passed the beginning of sorrows, and I have heard not a soul speak of it...save for on this board...a woman with a dream. The only reason I am here...
 
Absolutely said:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Not a vivid picture of the rapture, it is a vivid picture of the end of time on Earth. There are those that will be cast into utter darkness while the rest of us feast and celebrate the beginning of the rest of our lives.
 
lukeabers said:
It doesn't say 7 years, it says 1 week. For me, that is a prophecy for a later date. Right now, we are passed the beginning of sorrows, and I have heard not a soul speak of it...save for on this board...a woman with a dream. The only reason I am here...
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Birthpangs.
The bad stuff is pressing in.
The stage is being set.
G20 in south america and pence attends the swearing in of a comunist in mexico
 
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