The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation
- Thread starter mobius8curve
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The saints in the tribulation overcome by the glood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. Will they be degenerate sinners? Is God angry at them?
Did God rapture Noah or Lot off the earth when he poured out His judgments? Did He rapture Israel out of the land? Aren't the plagues in Egypt the most similar thing in the Old Testament to the various calamities poured out in Revelation?
Did God rapture Noah or Lot off the earth when he poured out His judgments? Did He rapture Israel out of the land? Aren't the plagues in Egypt the most similar thing in the Old Testament to the various calamities poured out in Revelation?
It does seem like pre-trib does appeal to those who do not have suffering as a part of their paradigm of what Christianity involves. That alone doesn't prove it false, but does seem to have that appeal. I suspect some pre-tribbers cringe and face palm when they see other pre-tribbers arguing for pre-trib based on the idea that God doesn't want Christians to suffer. Peter wrote 'Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. " There were Christian slaves suffering for righteousness sake under the hands of their masters. There were also plenty of saints tortured and/or put to death for their faith.
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Show me where God 'punishes' the saints who are on the earth during the Tribulation. Can you show me that verse in the Bible?
As far as God 'punishing', I'm not sure if a translation uses that in regard to fornicators in I Thessalonians 4 or not. One translation says God is the avenger of all such, regarding he who defrauds his brother in such a matter.
Otherwise, I can't think of any verses about God 'punishing' saints in the New Testament. But there is a verse about suffering according to the will of God, verses about suffering with Jesus and reigning with Jesus, etc.
Have you read the part in the gospels about taking up and following Jesus?
As far as God 'punishing', I'm not sure if a translation uses that in regard to fornicators in I Thessalonians 4 or not. One translation says God is the avenger of all such, regarding he who defrauds his brother in such a matter.
Otherwise, I can't think of any verses about God 'punishing' saints in the New Testament. But there is a verse about suffering according to the will of God, verses about suffering with Jesus and reigning with Jesus, etc.
Have you read the part in the gospels about taking up and following Jesus?
So you're saying God killed them??? They chose to die for their belief. Are you out of your mind throwing around the b word? That's so wrong since you don't know a thing about my relationship with God. You sound angry which in itself is not a good thing. Why don't you study the 'fruit of the Spirit'?
Again I say yes believers can suffer persecution from the world but not suffering His wrath during the GT. You lost me with your Saint references. Finally, I said this before I think, those who believe they are going through the GT--go ahead and those who think we'll be rescued out of the GT --do so.
"The Church which is His body" has experienced "tribulations" and "persecutions" since its beginning (and all through its existence on the earth). The Thessalonians did. Paul acknowledged this (2Th1:4). We are not awaiting a [future] specific time period in order to experience it (otherwise, the majority of "the body of Christ" will have died [and has died] before it even commences). OUR tribulations and persecutions occur now (and have all through the Church's existence on the earth [i.e. "this present age [singular]"]). We're not avoiding that fact. That is not the reason we hold to pre-trib, to somehow [wish to] "escape" that future specific time period/or any tribulations/persecutions. 
"The Church which is His body" has experienced "tribulations" and "persecutions" since its beginning (and all through its existence on the earth). The Thessalonians did. Paul acknowledged this (2Th1:4). We are not awaiting a [future] specific time period in order to experience it (otherwise, the majority of "the body of Christ" will have died [and has died] before it even commences). OUR tribulations and persecutions occur now (and have all through the Church's existence on the earth [i.e. "this present age [singular]"]). We're not avoiding that fact. That is not the reason we hold to pre-trib, to somehow [wish to] "escape" that future specific time period/or any tribulations/persecutions.
Certainly I believe Jesus is our God and I believe His Father is the Most High God and His God just like Jesus says here four times:
Revelation 3:12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.
Revelation 3:12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.
“Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:10
"But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled" 1 Peter 3:14
"Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. " John 15:20
You can try to pretend that God will not allow His children to suffer, but that means you do not know God...and if you do not know who God is, how is it that you can claim to serve Him?
"But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled" 1 Peter 3:14
"Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. " John 15:20
You can try to pretend that God will not allow His children to suffer, but that means you do not know God...and if you do not know who God is, how is it that you can claim to serve Him?