Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

[NayborBear]

I agree with everything, But I am not sure about what I highlighted in red. I think I disagree with this.. God had to correct our wiring so to speak after we were saved so we can do this. Before we had no power to do this, because either the wires were cut, or miswired..

I can tell ya that it is as easy to disagree with, as it is hard in the explaining of.

It has less to do with one's soul, and more to do with how El-Shaddai (God) "hard-wired" the spirit of "the man". before he/she was born. It's like, I was already "born from above" spiritually, before I was born in flesh. (like I said, EG? It's hard to explain). Kind of, I reckon, like "instinct" for lack of a more accurate way in describing the motovation/s, as well, as lack of motovtion/s, in the doings, and goings, as well as the not doings and goings. It's like 'ol Solomon's exclaiming to Jehovah, that "I don't know when I'm going in?" "Nor, when I'm going out!" Concerning the house of God, or Bethel. It's like God, "has our ear", so to speak. Whether it be by a "son of Light", an Angel, or a "priest" after the order of Melchizedek,. Or? the Ancient of Days, Himself! All the above, or various combinations thereof (no disrespect meant, Lord). I only know, that when that "prescence" ISN'T there? I feel LOST! Because, I'm IMMEDIATELY? "Ate up with the dumb-ass!" To the point, that I'm even unsure which one came first! Which sets me INSTANTLY seeking, or back tracking, as to just what I did, or said, or in who's or what presence, physically, or spiritually, I was in.

It's like we are "in, or part" OF the "government", that is ON the shoulders of Jesus, BEFORE, we were born! Awaiting for these flesh bodies to catch up! So, to speak.

I know, this is not a very good explanation, and there's a lot more "to it?"

I also know, not everyone is born this way. I just know, I am.

All my postings, have been because he wants what I've gone through, and am going through out here in a "public" venue. It's like "put it out there!" They will come!

Whether that will be those nice young men in their pretty white coats, or not? Basket weavers, and chirping squirrels? I hear 'em calling! But, they can't get in!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It goes in this order; 1- Regeneration = given the ability to believe and receive spiritual things. 2-. Believing and receiving spiritual things. 3 - Coming unto a knowledge of the truth of the gospel, by increments, a precept upon precept, line upon line, a little here and a little there, increasing your faith.

Again, Scripturally speaking, regeneration equals born again.

The Greek word is paliggenesía (from 3825 /pálin, "again" and 1078 /génesis, "birth, beginning") – properly, the coming of new birth because "born again"; regeneration.


You can misinterpret Scripture in order to prop up your understanding, but I do not have to follow you in your folly.

The natural man cannot discern spiritual things until he has been given the Holy Spirit that enables him to discern spiritual things and that does not come until he is regenerated. So, put your horse (regeneration) in front of your cart (believing).

I will stick with what God tells us in Scripture hear the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, then believe, then sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (which equals regeneration which equals being born again of holy Spirit).




/

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I am hoping you see 1 Cor 3:7-15 as I do, but I doubt that you do. Paul is speaking unto the church of God (the church that Jesus set up) telling them that they are still babes in Christ (regenerated, quickened together with Christ) and are lacking in the knowledge (meat of the gospel) of the truth of the gospel. Paul is doing what all preachers ought to be doing, and that is telling God's regenerated children the fullness of the gospel (meat of the gospel) thereby instructing them how God wants them to live their lives here on earth. The "foundation of the gospel" is Jesus Christ, the chief corner stone. Paul is reassuring them in verse 15 that even if their works do not survive the trial of fire they will suffer lose (of living that good and abundant life here on earth) but they will still be saved eternally.

The reason the believers in the church at Corinth were "carnal" was because they had left off following the Lord Jesus Christ and they were following men, which resulted in envying, and strife, and divisions among the believers. They were no longer one body in the Lord Jesus Christ, with the Lord being the Head and each believer being a member in particular in the body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:3-4 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?


In vss 5-7 we see that we are ministers who plant and water the word of God, and it is God Who brings increase of the word planted / watered in the heart of the hearer (but only so long as the hearer does not reject through restraining the truth in unrighteousness).

1 Corinthians 3:5-7 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

It is vitally important that we plant and water God's Word, not man's word. God will not increase the word of man in the heart of the hearer. God will only bring increase to the heart when His Word is heard.


In vss 8-9 we see that those who plant and water shall receive reward according to his own labor, and that we labor together with God (what an awesome privilege ).

1 Corinthians 3:8-9 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.


In vss 10-11 we see that we are to be wise masterbuilders and that we must be careful because there is only one foundation – the Lord Jesus Christ – and we are to lay no other man's doctrine upon that foundation.

1 Corinthians 3:10-11 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


In vss 12-15 we see that our works will be revealed in due time and our works will be tried by fire and whatever works remain after the trial shall stand. Works that do not remain will result in loss to the believer, but the believer shall be saved.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You can not have it both ways

You said they were justified on the cross, now your saying not util after we have been living for some time

Which is it?

Both instances, same salvation. I said in a covenant relationship when Christ died on the cross, and receiving that covenant promise after they are born into this world and receive the actuality of the covenant salvation when God regenerates them.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Again, Scripturally speaking, regeneration equals born again.

The Greek word is paliggenesía (from 3825 /pálin, "again" and 1078 /génesis, "birth, beginning") – properly, the coming of new birth because "born again"; regeneration.


You can misinterpret Scripture in order to prop up your understanding, but I do not have to follow you in your folly.





I will stick with what God tells us in Scripture hear the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, then believe, then sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (which equals regeneration which equals being born again of holy Spirit).




/

You keep bringing it up, but I am in agreement with you that regeneration is being born again from a non-spiritual life to a spiritual life.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The reason the believers in the church at Corinth were "carnal" was because they had left off following the Lord Jesus Christ and they were following men, which resulted in envying, and strife, and divisions among the believers. They were no longer one body in the Lord Jesus Christ, with the Lord being the Head and each believer being a member in particular in the body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:3-4 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?


In vss 5-7 we see that we are ministers who plant and water the word of God, and it is God Who brings increase of the word planted / watered in the heart of the hearer (but only so long as the hearer does not reject through restraining the truth in unrighteousness).

1 Corinthians 3:5-7 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

It is vitally important that we plant and water God's Word, not man's word. God will not increase the word of man in the heart of the hearer. God will only bring increase to the heart when His Word is heard.


In vss 8-9 we see that those who plant and water shall receive reward according to his own labor, and that we labor together with God (what an awesome privilege ).

1 Corinthians 3:8-9 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.


In vss 10-11 we see that we are to be wise masterbuilders and that we must be careful because there is only one foundation – the Lord Jesus Christ – and we are to lay no other man's doctrine upon that foundation.

1 Corinthians 3:10-11 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


In vss 12-15 we see that our works will be revealed in due time and our works will be tried by fire and whatever works remain after the trial shall stand. Works that do not remain will result in loss to the believer, but the believer shall be saved.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Before we are born again we have but one identity and that is our sinful nature of Adam. After we are born again we have a dual identity, The sinful nature of Adam and the spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit. These men Paul was talking to were born again but had not progressed enough in their faith and were still babes in Christ. Paul was telling them although their works did not survive the trial by fire, and were displaying their carnal nature of Adam, that they did not lose their eternal salvation.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You keep bringing it up, but I am in agreement with you that regeneration is being born again from a non-spiritual life to a spiritual life.

I bring it up because it appears (to me) you use the word "regeneration" in an unScriptural manner.

In Post #751, you stated:

"First – regeneration Then; Believe Then; receive the earnest, down payment of our inheritance."​

What that statement means to me is:

First – born again​

Then – believe​

Then – receive the earnest (which is the same as regeneration, born again)​

And that is not what Scripture indicates. Scriptures gives us the sequence:

Hear the word of truth, the gospel of salvation
Then believe
Then sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (which is regeneration, which is born again).

Just stick with Scripture and don't go off on a tangent.

In Eph 1:13, the word "heard" is the Greek word akoúō – which means to get by hearing, learn (from the mouth of the teacher or narrator).

If the hearer does not restrain the truth in unrighteousness when the word of truth, the gospel of salvation is spoken to him / her, that word reaches the heart of the hearer, the hearer believes, then is sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (regeneration / born again).

 

[LPT]

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Before we are born again we have but one identity and that is our sinful nature of Adam. After we are born again we have a dual identity, The sinful nature of Adam and the spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit. These men Paul was talking to were born again but had not progressed enough in their faith and were still babes in Christ. Paul was telling them although their works did not survive the trial by fire, and were displaying their carnal nature of Adam, that they did not lose their eternal salvation.

Paul specifically states that some were babes in Christ because they followed men. It is only when we follow the Lord Jesus Christ that we grow up and mature in Him.

1 Corinthians 3:

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?


I understand when a person is newly born again and feeds on the milk of the word.

And there may have been some who were newly born again that Paul was teaching at the church in Corinth. But I also believe Paul was addressing believers who should have been past the milk stage.

There were believers in Corinth who should have been mature enough to understand the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory (1 Cor 2:7). But with some believers, Paul could not go beyond Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:2) --- believers who should have been able to comprehend but for the fact that they had left off following the Lord Jesus Christ and were following men and the doctrines of men. Another foundation was being laid and God could not bring increase because they were not being taught His Word. So believers who should have matured past the milk stage remained immature and carnal.

 

[1ofthem]

God is Love...Jesus saves anyone who accepts him when he calls, and he don't make any difference. He has no respect of persons. As far as I know, arrogance and pride is still as sin. So we'd all do well to let that sink in.

 

[Endoscopy]

This has reference to the grafting in of the Gentiles. No one lost their eternal salvation through this process. You do realize when the scriptures talk about Israel, it is talking about Jacob. God, in Geneses. changed Jacob's name to be called no more Jacob, but to be called Israel.

His descendants are called Israelites and ended up in Israel. A portion of them, the southern kingdom known as Judah, are in Israel today.

 

[Endoscopy]

What I bolded in your statement above is repetition. You say the same thing twice.

Scripturally "regeneration" equals "receiving the Holy Spirit".

Regeneration = Greek paliggenesía (from 3825 /pálin, "again" and 1078 /génesis, "birth, beginning") – properly, the coming of new birth because "born again"; regeneration.

So when you say "we are regenerated and receive the Holy Spirit", you are saying "we are born again and born again".




See? Here I bolded your statement to show that you do understand that we receive the Holy Spirit in regeneration.

So now the question is when you state a person must be "regenerated" in order to "hear" the gospel, do you understand you're saying a person must be born again in order to "hear" the gospel?

That makes no sense because according to Eph 1:13, first we hear, then we believe, then we are sealed (regenerated / born again). When we are born again, we are sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession (Eph 1:13-14).





Again, you read Eph 2:5 as a standalone verse. Recall what is written in Eph 1:13-14 as you read Eph 2:5 and you will comprehend the process by which we are quickened (made alive).

First hear, then believe, then sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise. No Holy Spirit, no life (quickening).

Eph 1:13-14 harmonizes perfectly with Eph 2:5 when we let go of preconceived ideas (dogma) and allow the Word of God to stand in its inerrant accuracy.

I get so tired of discussion of the theoretical sequence. At 74 I can't remember a time I wasn't a Christian. I grew up in a Christian home hearing the gospel message. I was baptized at 6. I understand from my parents telling me years later that the minister and deacons tried to argue with me testing my understanding and they gave up and I was baptized at 6. I have continued in my faith since then. To me I just heard and believed asking Jesus into my life. It seemed so simple and this back and forth about the sequence to me is a bit silly. As a deacon and elder in 3 churches (moved twice) I sat through classes where the pastors went over this and much more. Still think it is a bit over analyzed.

 

[Endoscopy]

God did choose an elect people before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4) Chosen "US" (plural).

There are 2 views on this depending on Calvinism vs Arminianism views. Either God chose an elect people or God foresaw who would respond to the Biblical message BC and AD. I lately have been researching Calvinism and Arminianism and found both have long documents with their beliefs documented with lots of scripture references. Both make reasonable arguments with lots of scripture references.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Paul specifically states that some were babes in Christ because they followed men. It is only when we follow the Lord Jesus Christ that we grow up and mature in Him.

1 Corinthians 3:

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?


I understand when a person is newly born again and feeds on the milk of the word.

And there may have been some who were newly born again that Paul was teaching at the church in Corinth. But I also believe Paul was addressing believers who should have been past the milk stage.

There were believers in Corinth who should have been mature enough to understand the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory (1 Cor 2:7). But with some believers, Paul could not go beyond Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:2) --- believers who should have been able to comprehend but for the fact that they had left off following the Lord Jesus Christ and were following men and the doctrines of men. Another foundation was being laid and God could not bring increase because they were not being taught His Word. So believers who should have matured past the milk stage remained immature and carnal.

Most everyone on this forum, I believe, are born again, if they are here for the right reason, but look at the many different doctrines represented. They are all God's sheep, born again, and destined for heaven. Jesus said that God has hidden the mystery of the truth of his gospel to many and revealed it to only a few (and that is a big question I have for God "WHY") nevertheless, just because you are following the doctrine as instructed by man, does not mean you have lost your eternal destination.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

There are 2 views on this depending on Calvinism vs Arminianism views. Either God chose an elect people or God foresaw who would respond to the Biblical message BC and AD. I lately have been researching Calvinism and Arminianism and found both have long documents with their beliefs documented with lots of scripture references. Both make reasonable arguments with lots of scripture references.

I think that Psalms 53:2-3 solves the theory of God by his foreknowledge seeing who would respond to the biblical message and that scripture explains that he saw that none would seek him. They were all filthy. None would do good, no, not one.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I get so tired of discussion of the theoretical sequence. At 74 I can't remember a time I wasn't a Christian. I grew up in a Christian home hearing the gospel message. I was baptized at 6. I understand from my parents telling me years later that the minister and deacons tried to argue with me testing my understanding and they gave up and I was baptized at 6. I have continued in my faith since then. To me I just heard and believed asking Jesus into my life. It seemed so simple and this back and forth about the sequence to me is a bit silly. As a deacon and elder in 3 churches (moved twice) I sat through classes where the pastors went over this and much more. Still think it is a bit over analyzed.

God regenerates some children at a very young age. I, likewise do not remember ever not believing in a spiritual God. John the baptist was even regenerated in his mothers womb when Mary, while she was pregnant with Jesus, visited John's mother. By indication that John leaped in her womb.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

His descendants are called Israelites and ended up in Israel. A portion of them, the southern kingdom known as Judah, are in Israel today.

God, in the old testament dropped the nation of Israel as his favored nation and focused his attention on the gentile nation, in which I believe the United States of America which was founded on "in God we trust" is God's favored nation now, but he can drop this nation as we turn farther away from him, if he so desires.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

God regenerates some children at a very young age. I, likewise do not remember ever not believing in a spiritual God. John the baptist was even regenerated in his mothers womb when Mary, while she was pregnant with Jesus, visited John's mother. By indication that John leaped in her womb.

Again, any children God saves(regenerates) are saved by the gospel my friend. And John the Baptist was a forerunner of Christ, so what happened to him is no grounds for proof of your claim(s).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Again, any children God saves(regenerates) are saved by the gospel my friend. And John the Baptist was a forerunner of Christ, so what happened to him is no grounds for proof of your claim(s).

What is your belief of those children who are too young to hear and understand the gospel when they die, are they going to hell?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Both instances, same salvation. I said in a covenant relationship when Christ died on the cross, and receiving that covenant promise after they are born into this world and receive the actuality of the covenant salvation when God regenerates them.

Same can be said about being chosen before the foundation.

The only issue is, God can not regenerate a person UNTIL that person is justified. Otherwise, God regenerates a person in sin. Which is impossible and would go against Gods perfect laws and justice system. God can not go against his own character, thats why his love alone could not save us. Because his justice demands punishment, and Gods love can not over rule that.

Love did find a way though, Through death.