Romans 9:11-13 - Jacob have I loved, that the purpose of God according to ELECTION might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.
Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot
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No question that Israel was elected to be God's people . . . a national election. PERIOD!
But you take your views to the judgment and see how you fare.
Oh no, you said "PERIOD!" That proves you're right. We're all done now. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you're going to quote it, then quote it in context.
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Salvation is not the context, but service.
What I bolded in your statement above is repetition. You say the same thing twice.
Scripturally "regeneration" equals "receiving the Holy Spirit".
Regeneration = Greek paliggenesía (from 3825 /pálin, "again" and 1078 /génesis, "birth, beginning") – properly, the coming of new birth because "born again"; regeneration.
So when you say "we are regenerated and receive the Holy Spirit", you are saying "we are born again and born again".
See? Here I bolded your statement to show that you do understand that we receive the Holy Spirit in regeneration.ForestGreenCook said:
So now the question is when you state a person must be "regenerated" in order to "hear" the gospel, do you understand you're saying a person must be born again in order to "hear" the gospel?
That makes no sense because according to Eph 1:13, first we hear, then we believe, then we are sealed (regenerated / born again). When we are born again, we are sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession (Eph 1:13-14).
Again, you read Eph 2:5 as a standalone verse. Recall what is written in Eph 1:13-14 as you read Eph 2:5 and you will comprehend the process by which we are quickened (made alive).ForestGreenCook said:
First hear, then believe, then sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise. No Holy Spirit, no life (quickening).
Eph 1:13-14 harmonizes perfectly with Eph 2:5 when we let go of preconceived ideas (dogma) and allow the Word of God to stand in its inerrant accuracy.
I, too, see that FGC is extracting Ephesians 2:5 out from [separated from] its overall context.
"quickened-together-with" Christ, [is a word that] does not somehow mean that Christ Himself had not the Spirit one day, and the next He did... or anything like that. [see verses 3-6, along with the broader context, esp the "us" and then the "you also" of 1:13]
This word is used also in Colossians 2:12-13 ([where also is said, "buried with Him in the baptism"] and to be viewed in the wider context of Colossians 2:6,9,10-17, where v.13 states, "being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh..."; and where verse 17 says of "the list of things," "Which are a shadow of the things coming [i.e. the future things, not in "this present age"]; but the body is of Christ").
This word is used also in Colossians 2:12-13 ([where also is said, "buried with Him in the baptism"] and to be viewed in the wider context of Colossians 2:6,9,10-17, where v.13 states, "being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh..."; and where verse 17 says of "the list of things," "Which are a shadow of the things coming [i.e. the future things, not in "this present age"]; but the body is of Christ").
Um. No.
Nothing and exactly zero commentators, context nor church history support your error.
Gen 33:28 - And he sa
Election is the context.If you're going to quote it, then quote it in context.
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Salvation is not the context, but service.
Gen 32;28 - And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; (not a nation, but God's elect.)
"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations" (Deuteronomy 7:6-9).
Not an individual . . . the nation . . . though it started with Abraham who is called their father. And God will deliver the remnant of His holy nation at the end of the tribulation.
Not an individual . . . the nation . . . though it started with Abraham who is called their father. And God will deliver the remnant of His holy nation at the end of the tribulation.
Election for what purpose? That the elder shall SERVE the younger. Election is always attached to service never salvation.
Another example, Jesus Christ, God's elect. First mention principle sets the context, the purpose.
Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Exodus 4:22-23 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me
Israel was firstborn son; the Lord Jesus Christ is the only begotten son (He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God — John 3:18).
God's elect are represented through Jacob, whose name is Israel. When scripture is talking about Israel it is talking about Jacob. Jacob and Esau to show that his elect might stand.
They are saved (in covenant relationship) on the cross) and receive the new birth through regeneration after they are born a natural birth.
So when God spoke to Moses Exodus 4:22-23 and told Moses to tell pharaoh Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me, God was not referring to the nation of Israel which was in slavery in Egypt?
God was referring to Jacob, the brother of Esau in Exodus 4:22?
That makes no sense, ForestGreenCook. Jacob was not in Egypt at the time. Jacob was long dead and buried by the time Moses was to stand before pharaoh and request release of Israel (the nation).
God's "purpose" in His "election" of Jacob was related to the Christ line. Mary was a lineal descendant of Jacob.
Jacob (Israel) was not a representative only to the elect in his lifetime, but for every elect person born a natural birth until Christ comes. It is true that Jesus was through the descendant of Jacob, but why was Esau mentioned, if not for the purpose of depicting all of his elect family?
The whole purpose of "election" was the Lord Jesus Christ. In order to truly understand and comprehend "election" we need to get our focus off of ourselves (or any other descendant of Adam). The whole point of "election" was preservation of the lineage of the promised seed (the Lord Jesus Christ).
Romans 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
The ultimate "purpose of God according to election" was the Lord Jesus Christ. In Eph 3:11, Paul writes about the eternal purpose which [God] purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You're getting distracted by the Jacob and Esau issue and missing the whole point of "election" (the Lord Jesus Christ).
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