Hardshell & Primitive Baptist "Conditional Time Salvation" Warning

[Hevosmies]

You are saved by grace, through (the faithfulness of Jesus going to the cross) and that not of yourself. lest any man should boast (eternal salvation) and in contrast, Save yourselves from this untoward generation (timely deliverance-salvation).

I thought you were a calvinist.

You could just say the "save yourselves from this untoward generation" is a call to repentance, which God grants people. Voilá.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Here is another issue of PB doctrine that makes their gospel false:

The person, being elect can live a life of godlessness, wickedness, sodomy, drunkenness, theft, murder, fornication, adultery, you name it. They will still inherit eternal life because the PB "can tell" the person is saved eternally because they believe in the after life.

The person in the PB scenario will get there but in this life just decided to live like hell and not believe the Gospel. They didn't choose option B.

Hyper-Antinomianism. Hyper-Calvinism.

So, live like the devil and die and inherit eternal life. This is one reason the PB's call their doctrine "attractive" a word they use in describing their teachings.

In the new birth we are (Eph 2:10) his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. We know, because of our depraved nature, that we do not walk in them 100% of the time, unless you believe as Lillywolf does, and I sometimes wonder if you don't lean in that direction with some of your comments. Yes, it is a much more comforting secure doctrine than yours.

 

[NayborBear]

It has become necessary to post this here since we have this false doctrine being peddled on CC of late. Believe it or not, I care about people and wish to help protect the flock from error! Please note and take time to read Acts 20:28-30 and other Scriptures provided.

Please do not be deceived by the "Conditional Time Salvation" heresy promoted and peddled by Primitive Baptists otherwise known as "Hardshells" or "Hardshell Baptists". They are merely seeking converts to their teaching while at the same time being anti-evangelistic. There has to be another outlet when one turns to such false teaching, and it extends itself in them trying to reach others with their false gospel and to make "converts."

Nearly every post will be about this heresy, they focus on this to poison the well and deceive others.

Understand who this is coming from, and realize that Hardshells or Primitive Baptists are against these things:

1) That preaching the Gospel is God's means to save his people with an eternal salvation in Christ; 1 Corinthian 1:18; Romans 1:16; Ephesians 1, 2 &c.

2) They are against missionary work.

3) They stand against contextual eternal salvation as revealed in the NT Scriptures.

These deny what they call "means salvation" (their terminology) and will ridicule others for their "Gospel means" preaching, in other words for believing Scripture that God uses this preaching to save his people, eternally. Note Romans 10:13-17 for example. So they would call others who believe this in Romans "Gospel means" preachers or "means preachers" and it is meant to be derogatory.

The logical conclusion of their teaching is hyper-Calvinism, and is totally anti-evangelistic, anti-missionary, anti-Gospel. The latter they will deny because they've truncated the Gospel into their meaning of "gospel," making it completely false; note Galatians 1:8-10. They will also deny they are in any fashion "Calvinistic" but only to avoid the fitting label of "hyper-Calvinism."

Please read these excerpts that explain this better than I can. I will provide a link at the end or further reading:

"Secrecy" of some sort is a characteristic of a cult. Christians have their "secrets" (Psa. 25:14; Prov. 3:32), but the distinctive secrets of the Hardshell cult are not the secrets of God or of His kingdom."

"Their primary "secret" revelation concerns the doctrine they call "Time Salvation." You have to be trained in Hardshell "dogma" to know all that the words convey. What the Hardshells believe the terminology, "Time Salvation," represents would never cross the average Bible reader's mind. You have to hear it from a Hardshell to be introduced to and informed in the meaning of its theological “jargon.”

"It is an integral part of the Hardshell DEFENSE and APOLOGETIC, for their "Spirit Alone" and "No-Means Regeneration" theories, to get their opponents or would be "converts" to inbibe <sic> all the teachings involved in this doctrine of "Time Salvation."

"It will become obvious to most who read this essay on Hardshellism, that these Hardshells, who have historically opposed any thing "new," i.e. "inventions," have themselves, ironically and hypocritically, introduced many new things under the Baptist and Christian name, at least in doctrine."

Read more here.

Hebrews 6
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go ON unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and Things that ACCOMPANY Salvation, though we thus speak.
12 That ye be NOT SLOTHFUL, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
19 Which HOPE we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, EVEN Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

This is a "common MISCONCEPTION", and teaching from, and by the spirit of anti-christ. That Jesus, being that "High Priest", somehow, mystically, yet ERRONIOUSLY, Is NOW GOD!! The GREAT 3 IN 1!

2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let no man deceive you by ANY means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin (with the "shit eatin grin") be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul seen it! Jesus seen it! We just read what Paul had to say about it. What did Jesus have to say about it?
Matthew 23
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

It isn't very funny at all. How much things "seem" to change? How much things, remain the same! The spirit of anit-christ was working during, and yea, before Jesus? and, it's still working NOW!

Really "chaffs my hide", these ones, "PREACHING" this "WORKS FOR SALVATION" message! When Paul made it ABUNDANTLY clear! "Things" that ACCOMPANY Salvation!" Well? Perhaps NOT so abundantly clear TO SOME! Or maybe? It's just skipped over? Or, DELIBERATELY/WILLFULLY Ignored?

Romans 10
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

2 Peter 3
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of OLD, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that THEN was, being overflowed with water, PREISHED:

The "premise", of this reply, is? If one "can't" COMPREHEND, Peter was speaking, concerning a former EVERLASTING?

Then one will not "comprehend" this CURRENT "everlasting!" Nor? The "Everlasting" that is to come, When Jesus is allowed to return. Though, the 1,000 years, is not referred to as an "everlasting." One "should" consider it as such! Albeit, a shorter everlasting, then this current one.

No? I'm not a disciple of the "JW's!" Not a disciple of John Calvin, either! Not, a disciple of hardshell baptist, nor, primitive baptist!

Just a man! Doing my DANGDEST, in the EXPOSING that "MAN OF SIN, with the shit eaten grin!"

Not an "easy" task, to say the least! But? It NEEDS doing! Elstwise? One may as well toss out God's "Plan of Salvation!"

This "conditional TIME salvation?" In the eyes of men? Are merely "attempts" used in pulling the wool over ones' eyes, towards legalism!

That being said? In the "eyes of God?" It is however? TRUE! (consider the parable of the talents for a reference.)

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I thought you were a calvinist.

You could just say the "save yourselves from this untoward generation" is a call to repentance, which God grants people. Voilá.

Are you not understanding that you are saved by grace, and that "not of yourselves" and "save yourselves" is contradicting to each other?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

If you are looking for the perfect church that does everything perfectly and agrees with YOUR perfect understanding of everything, then please don't enter it or it will never be perfect again!

These Hardshell or Particular Baptists are old baptist denominations who have had their own particular way of conducting their worship, none of it wrong. They hold 100% to the doctrines of grace. They do not adhere to this strange doctrine attributed to them called "conditional time salvation" That is a heresy they refute and are holding fast to the "absolute predestined salvation" of their Black Rock statements

To blame entire groups of people for a few bad apples is unfair and it shows a lack of scholarship on the subject.
It's like blaming Reformed Baptists for the errors of what most baptist churches have fallen prey to in the last 150 years.

This forum as degenerated into another spat between "sovereign grace" people and the "free willies" that will never be solved by debate but only by God's grace to understanding. Opinion is not edifying, SCRIPTURE is. (as long as it is in context)

There are many churches that call themselves baptist who are not preaching the doctrine that Jesus taught. All scripture must harmonize to be the true doctrine of Jesus.

 

[Hevosmies]

Are you not understanding that you are saved by grace, and that "not of yourselves" and "save yourselves" is contradicting to each other?

No its not.

Here we see it again:


Philippians 2:12-13 King James Version (KJV)
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[preacher4truth]

Hebrews 6
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go ON unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and Things that ACCOMPANY Salvation, though we thus speak.
12 That ye be NOT SLOTHFUL, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
19 Which HOPE we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, EVEN Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

This is a "common MISCONCEPTION", and teaching from, and by the spirit of anti-christ. That Jesus, being that "High Priest", somehow, mystically, yet ERRONIOUSLY, Is NOW GOD!! The GREAT 3 IN 1!

2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let no man deceive you by ANY means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin (with the "shit eatin grin") be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul seen it! Jesus seen it! We just read what Paul had to say about it. What did Jesus have to say about it?
Matthew 23
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

It isn't very funny at all. How much things "seem" to change? How much things, remain the same! The spirit of anit-christ was working during, and yea, before Jesus? and, it's still working NOW!

Really "chaffs my hide", these ones, "PREACHING" this "WORKS FOR SALVATION" message! When Paul made it ABUNDANTLY clear! "Things" that ACCOMPANY Salvation!" Well? Perhaps NOT so abundantly clear TO SOME! Or maybe? It's just skipped over? Or, DELIBERATELY/WILLFULLY Ignored?

Romans 10
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

2 Peter 3
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of OLD, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that THEN was, being overflowed with water, PREISHED:

The "premise", of this reply, is? If one "can't" COMPREHEND, Peter was speaking, concerning a former EVERLASTING?

Then one will not "comprehend" this CURRENT "everlasting!" Nor? The "Everlasting" that is to come, When Jesus is allowed to return. Though, the 1,000 years, is not referred to as an "everlasting." One "should" consider it as such! Albeit, a shorter everlasting, then this current one.

No? I'm not a disciple of the "JW's!" Not a disciple of John Calvin, either! Not, a disciple of hardshell baptist, nor, primitive baptist!

Just a man! Doing my DANGDEST, in the EXPOSING that "MAN OF SIN, with the shit eaten grin!"

Not an "easy" task, to say the least! But? It NEEDS doing! Elstwise? One may as well toss out God's "Plan of Salvation!"

This "conditional TIME salvation?" In the eyes of men? Are merely "attempts" used in pulling the wool over ones' eyes, towards legalism!

That being said? In the "eyes of God?" It is however? TRUE! (consider the parable of the talents for a reference.)

Man, I just don't get what you're saying up there bro. It is just incoherent, sorry! If anyone else wants to take a stab at it, well, here's your chance.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

There are many churches that call themselves baptist who are not preaching the doctrine that Jesus taught. All scripture must harmonize to be the true doctrine of Jesus.

That is what I said

 

[NayborBear]

Man, I just don't get what you're saying up there bro. It is just incoherent, sorry! If anyone else wants to take a stab at it, well, here's your chance.

Prolly, best you don't.

Nonetheless, it needs sayin'.

 

[preacher4truth]

There are many churches that call themselves baptist who are not preaching the doctrine that Jesus taught. All scripture must harmonize to be the true doctrine of Jesus.

Yet your doctrine doesn't harmonize, has grave errors, and you change or waver on your beliefs after you're refuted. Example? You've mitigated the importance of repentance being a work of man or work of God when the fact is that upon your belief of the former rests your entire position. It's been proven incorrect, it is not a work of man.

You can't just act like that's no big deal now as you did in post #452 where you stated: "Whether it is a gift of God is not the point." That's where you wavered on your all important teaching.

It is a big deal, and it is the point. It clearly shows you're incorrect from the start.

Once again here is some refutation of your argument with Scriptural context:

For instance 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

Context? Preaching the Gospel, verse 8.

Objective? That the elect will be saved, verse 9.

Extent? That this salvation is eternal life in Christ, verse 10.

Second instance:

You've stated repentance and works are of man, therefore Gospel salvation cannot be eternal. OK, fine, that is your argument and basis for rejecting that eternal salvation is given by means of the Gospel, 1 Corinthians 1:21 &c.

Yet, we've shown you repentance and faith concerning the Gospel are not works of man, but the work of God. You've just blown that off. But you cannot do this when proven incorrect. When proven incorrect you have to accept it, and all it entails. I will be more than glad to receive correction once you prove me incorrect, but you're not doing that.

Conclusion? Your theory that it cannot be eternal salvation because these are works of man falls flat on its face and is disproven. Therefore your theory that Gospel salvation cannot be eternal is incorrect.

Lastly? Repeating the same lines over and again are quite tiresome bro. Seriously that is what you do, not trying to be ugly. You repeat what we already know and things we've already agreed with you on.

We've also been addressing each argument you offer, refuting them line by line, yet you skip over main points of our arguments only to repeat "the natural man cannot receive the things of the spirit of God" and Ephesians 2:5. Come on sir, that is not a debate, it's a cop out.

We already know these texts and agree on this concerning natural man, yet God takes natural man and converts him.

You really ought to concede that you've been refuted at the very foundation of your doctrine as shown above.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

The apostles were sent to preach to the lost SHEEP (God's children) of the house of Israel (which is Jacob's name who is representative of God's elect). You might ask yourself, "why were HIS SHEEP lost" Obviously, they were not lost eternally because they are his sheep. The shepherd left the 99 of his sheep to go and save the one sheep that was lost. The event of "the prodigal son" - Luke 15:24 - For this MY SON was dead and is alive AGAIN; he was lost, and is found. The lost son was never not his son, but was lost from enjoying the benefits of his fathers fellowship.

The great commission given by Jesus 18 “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”(Matthew 28)

Nowhere does it say they are to preach to the lost sheep of Israel in the above. Pre-crucifixion they were told this, but after His resurrection the command was given to preach to everyone without exception. You are pouring your theology into the text here my friend.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Whether repentance is a work of man or not, the natural man will not, and even, cannot respond to breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern. The only person that responds to a spiritual law is the regenerated person who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that enables him to discern a spiritual law, and a person that can be pricked in his new heart by God. I understand your determination in enabling the natural man, void of the Spirit, to discern spiritual things, in order to keep your salaried job, but it will just not harmonize. You have not exposed a faulty doctrine, via, the purpose of your thread. Repentance is brought about by God pricking the new heart of the regenerated man.

These personal jabs need to stop my friend. There is no whether to this, repentance is not a work of man, but of God.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

In the new birth we are (Eph 2:10) his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. We know, because of our depraved nature, that we do not walk in them 100% of the time, unless you believe as Lillywolf does, and I sometimes wonder if you don't lean in that direction with some of your comments. Yes, it is a much more comforting secure doctrine than yours.

But all of this, from the new birth to conversion is via the word of God my friend.

 

[iamsoandso]

No its not.

Here we see it again:


Philippians 2:12-13 King James Version (KJV)
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Just something to consider,,,

Jesus died on the cross to save you(I have no idea when you were born,lol).
Do you believe you were saved at some point between the time you were born and now ?

 

[preacher4truth]

Whether repentance is a work of man or not, the natural man will not, and even, cannot respond to breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern. The only person that responds to a spiritual law is the regenerated person who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that enables him to discern a spiritual law, and a person that can be pricked in his new heart by God.

You're repeating yourself.

I understand your determination in enabling the natural man, void of the Spirit, to discern spiritual things

OK. In the past I let you slide by saying you're misrepresenting me. Now I'm going to just say the above is an outright lie. I've never taught nor have i ever asserted such a thing.

in order to keep your salaried job,

That's nice but it's just a false accusation. Feel better though? More humble, a poorer sinner?

I've always worked secular employment as well as pastoring.

but it will just not harmonize.

It harmonizes with Scripture, just not with PB error. But you can't see your error.

You have not exposed a faulty doctrine, via, the purpose of your thread. Repentance is brought about by God pricking the new heart of the regenerated man.

Oh, I've exposed you alright which is why you don't address the texts or contexts. See, you don't actually refute anything said, you just come out with some nonsense statements, not addressing the issues, texts &c then congratulate yourself as "The Big Winna!!!

 

[preacher4truth]

I have never claimed that I know who the elect are.

Oh please!!!

Um, the Native Americans? Happy hunting ground? Ring a bell? Please see yourself for once and be honest with things you state.

For the record all PB's do this, they can "tell" who the elect are. You've done it yourself. It's a practice of PB's and you know it.

Next!

 

[preacher4truth]

In the new birth we are (Eph 2:10) his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. We know, because of our depraved nature, that we do not walk in them 100% of the time, unless you believe as Lillywolf does, and I sometimes wonder if you don't lean in that direction with some of your comments. Yes, it is a much more comforting secure doctrine than yours.

Um, another veiled false accusation? I'm starting to see the picture you're coloring of yourself.

Do show us where I've ever even hinted at sinless perfection. You're not going to find it.

You really need to learn to tell the truth.

Of course your doctrine is more comforting, it appeals to the flesh. You can live like hell and still expect heaven. As long as you believe there's a happy hunting ground in the sky? It's all good!

Want a better life now? Work for your false gospel temporary circumstances deliverance by mustering up faith and repentance in the flesh. Don't want all that gospel deliverance stuff? Meh, just reject it, heaven is yours anyhow.

Not one thing I said above misrepresents or distorts your beliefs or your false gospel message. Unlike you I don't bare false witness.

Yep, that's a real comforting doctrine you're preaching there. It's "attractive" and comforting for sure, to the natural man.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

In the new birth we are (Eph 2:10) his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. We know, because of our depraved nature, that we do not walk in them 100% of the time, unless you believe as Lillywolf does, and I sometimes wonder if you don't lean in that direction with some of your comments. Yes, it is a much more comforting secure doctrine than yours.

Well, you say God’s elect can live like hellions and still be welcomed into heaven. I called you on this many pages ago. You are advocating free grace theology my friend.

 

[preacher4truth]

Well, you say God’s elect can live like hellions and still be welcomed into heaven. I called you on this many pages ago. You are advocating free grace theology my friend.

Antinomianism. Jesus rejects this in Matthew 7:23 showing those who practice lawlessness are lost in their sins and hell bound.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Antinomianism. Jesus rejects this in Matthew 7:23 showing those who practice lawlessness are lost in their sins and hell bound.

This was my post, # 89 on this thread...

You are close to adhering to free grace theology my friend. This erroneous doctrine claims people can live like the devil, yet go to heaven because of God saving them. CTS teaches one can make shipwreck their faith, live like the devil, yet be eternally saved. This is anti-Lordship Salvation in its truest form my friend.