Speaking in tongues
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I see that a little differently.
Flawed according to theory of logic (philosophy) or Logos God's perfect law ?
You use circular reasoning to try and prove your point. What goes around comes around .
Its not the opinion (logic) that became flesh.
The Logos or perfect law became flesh. Not philosophy came flesh. No law according to Logic .
The law of faith according to Logos, the person of faith .
Flawed according to theory of logic (philosophy) or Logos God's perfect law ?
You use circular reasoning to try and prove your point. What goes around comes around .
Its not the opinion (logic) that became flesh.
The Logos or perfect law became flesh. Not philosophy came flesh. No law according to Logic .
The law of faith according to Logos, the person of faith .
I would suggest no such thing as "sign gifts" as least to those who walk by faith (the unseen eternal) Sign curses that confirms men refuse to hear prophecy, yes.
Prophecy (God's word ) is of God (coming from) not towards or to God. In the end of the matter to God must mean of or coming from God to or towards the people. And the word tongue is always interpreted as language that used to give a person faith or clear direction.
No secret languages .Its why he has given us parables they hide the meaning and not hide the conversation. When we prophecy we utter his mysteries that he makes known . Hiding them from those who do not have ears hear.
Turning the sign of rebellion upside down makes prophecy without effect. (yet they would not hear)
It is as David under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit informs us in the Psalms . If they destroy the foundation of His doctrines like the tongues law . What will His children do...? How will they reconcile the law given to them in 1 Corinthians 14 ? Do we remove chapter 28 from the book of Isaiah. Or compare the foundation (Isiah 28) to the fulfillment (1 Corinthians 14)?
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Isaiah 28:11-15
Why did God mock Jews using stammering lips the in that way? Find that out an the sign become apparent.
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, "not to them that believe", but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corinthians 14:21-22
To me the real mystery is how did a sign that confirms un-belief (no faith) get turned around and made into a gift? Who is behind that kind of work?
What kind of gift confirms a person refuses to hear God?
Prophecy (God's word ) is of God (coming from) not towards or to God. In the end of the matter to God must mean of or coming from God to or towards the people. And the word tongue is always interpreted as language that used to give a person faith or clear direction.
No secret languages .Its why he has given us parables they hide the meaning and not hide the conversation. When we prophecy we utter his mysteries that he makes known . Hiding them from those who do not have ears hear.
Turning the sign of rebellion upside down makes prophecy without effect. (yet they would not hear)
It is as David under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit informs us in the Psalms . If they destroy the foundation of His doctrines like the tongues law . What will His children do...? How will they reconcile the law given to them in 1 Corinthians 14 ? Do we remove chapter 28 from the book of Isaiah. Or compare the foundation (Isiah 28) to the fulfillment (1 Corinthians 14)?
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Isaiah 28:11-15
Why did God mock Jews using stammering lips the in that way? Find that out an the sign become apparent.
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, "not to them that believe", but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corinthians 14:21-22
To me the real mystery is how did a sign that confirms un-belief (no faith) get turned around and made into a gift? Who is behind that kind of work?
What kind of gift confirms a person refuses to hear God?
How can prophecy that leads us to obeying it, as a prefect law (no laws missing) make us disobey it?
The commandment do not add or subtract from it is not for disobeying it as it seems you are saying..
Those who do disobey (no faith to obey) like those in Jerimiah 44 or Isiah 28. God mocks them that quench the Spirit by appointing a sign to their unbelief. You might want to read the law found in 1 Corinthian 14 . It reveals what the sign confirms .Some simply turn it upside down and quench the Spirit.
Do you have any new prophecy that we could add to His book of prophecy ? Is there a law missing by which we could know him more intimately?
As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.Jerimiiah 44:16-17
The commandment do not add or subtract from it is not for disobeying it as it seems you are saying..
Those who do disobey (no faith to obey) like those in Jerimiah 44 or Isiah 28. God mocks them that quench the Spirit by appointing a sign to their unbelief. You might want to read the law found in 1 Corinthian 14 . It reveals what the sign confirms .Some simply turn it upside down and quench the Spirit.
Do you have any new prophecy that we could add to His book of prophecy ? Is there a law missing by which we could know him more intimately?
As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.Jerimiiah 44:16-17
I can't find the post where you quote verses from I Corinthians 15. I would say that chapter disproves your point. The word used is resurrection. The dead stand up again. One of the verses you quoted that says it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body disproves your point.
1. The body that is sown is raised up. This is talking about the resurrection of the body.
2. It is a spiritual body, not just a spirit.
If I understand you right, you think because Christ left and sent the Spirit which is better for us, then whenever the apostles died, then must have distributed their spirits among the saints to make it better for them.
First of all, I wonder if you think the situation with the Spirit being sent after Christ ascended means that the same thing must happen after the apostles died, why wouldn't you believe in a bodily resurrection? Christ was resurrected bodily, so if the apostles have to follow Him, why wouldn't they be resurrected bodily? There is a lot more scripture, including I Corinthians 15, which argues for the resurrection of the saints based on Christ's resurrection.
But there is no scripture at all that indicates if apostles died, they have to send their spirits like Christ sent the Holy Spirit. The verses you quote are about Paul bearing the death of Christ in his body while he was alive and walking around on the earth.
And secondly, this causes me to guess that you may not be Trinitarian. Am I right about that? Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. At creation, we read of God, the Spirit, and the Word. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The Spirit of God hovered upon the face of the waters. And God spoke the Word of God. He said, "Let there be light." John tells us that everything that was made was made by the Word.
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. This is not the same situation as the apostles or you or me dying and what happens to our own spirit.
1. The body that is sown is raised up. This is talking about the resurrection of the body.
2. It is a spiritual body, not just a spirit.
If I understand you right, you think because Christ left and sent the Spirit which is better for us, then whenever the apostles died, then must have distributed their spirits among the saints to make it better for them.
First of all, I wonder if you think the situation with the Spirit being sent after Christ ascended means that the same thing must happen after the apostles died, why wouldn't you believe in a bodily resurrection? Christ was resurrected bodily, so if the apostles have to follow Him, why wouldn't they be resurrected bodily? There is a lot more scripture, including I Corinthians 15, which argues for the resurrection of the saints based on Christ's resurrection.
But there is no scripture at all that indicates if apostles died, they have to send their spirits like Christ sent the Holy Spirit. The verses you quote are about Paul bearing the death of Christ in his body while he was alive and walking around on the earth.
And secondly, this causes me to guess that you may not be Trinitarian. Am I right about that? Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. At creation, we read of God, the Spirit, and the Word. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The Spirit of God hovered upon the face of the waters. And God spoke the Word of God. He said, "Let there be light." John tells us that everything that was made was made by the Word.
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. This is not the same situation as the apostles or you or me dying and what happens to our own spirit.
You clearly don't know what a spirit is, therefore don't have a clue what is being said when Paul talks of a spiritual body.
A spirit or a spiritual body can not be flesh/blood/bones and has no connection whatsoever to any perishable or visible thing- it is just the consciousness. Flesh/blood will disintegrate back to the earth from where it came never to live again.
The bodily resurrection of Jesus was only for the sake of the gospel so that it can be preached that Jesus died and visibly resurrected. It was a sign so that people may believe, otherwise the bible clearly says Jesus resurrected spiritually in a twinkling of an eye.
Matt 27:50 When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.
2 Cor 4:13 It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14 because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.
What did Paul (Apostles) believe? the words of Jesus
What are the words of Jesus? Spirit
So what did they do after believing? They also spoke
John 6:
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit e and life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
Paul is not merely speaking of suffering for the sake of the gospel, he is talking of his resurrection for the benefit of his listeners.
Try again.
A spirit or a spiritual body can not be flesh/blood/bones and has no connection whatsoever to any perishable or visible thing- it is just the consciousness. Flesh/blood will disintegrate back to the earth from where it came never to live again.
The bodily resurrection of Jesus was only for the sake of the gospel so that it can be preached that Jesus died and visibly resurrected. It was a sign so that people may believe, otherwise the bible clearly says Jesus resurrected spiritually in a twinkling of an eye.
Matt 27:50 When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.
2 Cor 4:13 It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14 because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.
What did Paul (Apostles) believe? the words of Jesus
What are the words of Jesus? Spirit
So what did they do after believing? They also spoke
John 6:
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit e and life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
Paul is not merely speaking of suffering for the sake of the gospel, he is talking of his resurrection for the benefit of his listeners.
Try again.
The resurrected body, a spiritual body, is immortal, and does not disintegrate back into the earth.
You say I do not know what a spirit is. Why don't you tell me of your experiences with spirits, so you can explain why you think you know more about what a spirit is than I do? I am going off of what the Bible teaches? I am a human being with a spirit, too, as you are. And I disagree with your understanding of what a spirit is.
Do you have some specific experiences with spirits that leads you to these conclusions? Maybe some other religious ideas or texts that influence you?
I have read the Bible, and I am pretty sure it says nothing about Jesus being resurrected in 'spiritually in a twinkling of an eye.' Jesus was resurrected as the firstfruits of them that slept. He is still a Man. He could eat fish. He was not a ghost. John says we shall be like Him.
The Bible never says His resurection was only so it culd be preached that Jesus died and visibly resurrected. We also participate in his death and resurrection through baptism. That's another reason. He is the firstfruits of them that slept. We could label that as a reason, too. We can preach these things, but there is no reason to think Jesus ended up in some other state other than His resurrected state unless you have some kind of odd agenda that does not line up with New Testament teaching. It's like Mormonism. They say they believe the Bible, but they have this other belief system and work the Bible in as a part of that other belief system.
Okay. Great passage.
See, raise us, not create another duplicate body in heaven, or a duplicate spirit, or cause our spirit to be distributed among other people.
I think you have a very limited idea of what 'spirit' is. The Spirit of God hovered over the face of the deep in Genesis. The Spirit of the Lord came upon various people in the Old Testament. The Spirit of the Lord came upon Zecharias and He prophesied. We have to understand the concept of 'spirit' before reading the following verse.
Can you show me the verse that says that and we can discuss it.[/quote][/quote]
You say I do not know what a spirit is. Why don't you tell me of your experiences with spirits, so you can explain why you think you know more about what a spirit is than I do? I am going off of what the Bible teaches? I am a human being with a spirit, too, as you are. And I disagree with your understanding of what a spirit is.
Do you have some specific experiences with spirits that leads you to these conclusions? Maybe some other religious ideas or texts that influence you?
I have read the Bible, and I am pretty sure it says nothing about Jesus being resurrected in 'spiritually in a twinkling of an eye.' Jesus was resurrected as the firstfruits of them that slept. He is still a Man. He could eat fish. He was not a ghost. John says we shall be like Him.
The Bible never says His resurection was only so it culd be preached that Jesus died and visibly resurrected. We also participate in his death and resurrection through baptism. That's another reason. He is the firstfruits of them that slept. We could label that as a reason, too. We can preach these things, but there is no reason to think Jesus ended up in some other state other than His resurrected state unless you have some kind of odd agenda that does not line up with New Testament teaching. It's like Mormonism. They say they believe the Bible, but they have this other belief system and work the Bible in as a part of that other belief system.
Okay. Great passage.
See, raise us, not create another duplicate body in heaven, or a duplicate spirit, or cause our spirit to be distributed among other people.
I think you have a very limited idea of what 'spirit' is. The Spirit of God hovered over the face of the deep in Genesis. The Spirit of the Lord came upon various people in the Old Testament. The Spirit of the Lord came upon Zecharias and He prophesied. We have to understand the concept of 'spirit' before reading the following verse.
Can you show me the verse that says that and we can discuss it.[/quote][/quote]
Tongues are not meaningless words.
Romans 8:26-28
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Romans 8:26-28
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
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