My post was slightly abbrasive, there, I guess, but it was a lot milder than what I was falsely being accused of saying.
The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation
- Thread starter mobius8curve
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Is this post directed to another post by the same poster, calledoutone777, in another post which claims to be a prophecy?
Recall, I did mention in an earlier post, that 2 Thessalonians 2 [where Paul giving a corrective covering the issue of] is "when/how ONE EVENT happens IN RELATION [TIME-WISE] TO other events" (and that the passage is covering a SEVEN-YR time period, rather than just a singular moment/time-frame/24-hr "day"... and showed [briefly] how so).
The problem enters when we don't define the phrases found within the passage biblically, and/or at their base/basic meaning, and also some grammatically-incongruencing problems [I made that word up]. For example, often mis-defined is: "the Day of the Lord" to be [wrongly] meaning "a 24-hr day" (it isn't). The Thessalonians [wrongly] believed [were being convinced] that it [the time period] "IS PRESENT" (it wasn't).
Etc...
My response was partly to that relation/time-wise comment. Pre-tribbers reinterpret passages like II Thessalonians 2 through the pre-trib lenses they wear.
My question is why do that? The passage is less complicated and fits better with the idea of one pariousia. Where is the actual passage of scripture that shows the rapture occurring before the tribulation? Without that, why interpret passages like this one through the pre-trib theory? What is the justification for interpreting passages that do not actually teach pre-trib to be consistent with pre-trib. Why not stick with a simpler, more feasible interpretation?
The Bible does not use terms like 'post trib' and 'pre trib.' It does show that the rapture occurs at the parousia. Would a verse showing the gathering occuring after the tribulation and the rapture occurring at the parousia satisfy your curiousity?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
So I have to prove mine but you do not?
This is called beng a hypocrite. Or being arrogant. Do as I say, Not as I do.
Another proud comment, You did not present a problem. You presented an interpretation. I refuted that interpretation, You were also given 3 issues with this theory (there are many more) and you did not even refute those problems. You just pushed them aside as if they are meaningless.
You do not want to discuss. If you did you would answer my questions.
It is so I can find my own posts.. it is for my benefit.
I been here for years. And sadly, Have had these same one way discussions far to many times.
I have not made up ,y mind yet. I am still open.
And once again, it is not my theory it is yours. If the rapture happens at christs return to earth, there is no one left period. . Thats the One major problem with your theory. Which you have failed to propery explain. (You say some unsaved peole may stay alive. So God is goingn to start his kingdom with only peole who rejected him and took the mark of the beast?? Sorry I am not buyng it. I can’t it makes no sense.
It is directed to people living in the time of tribulation. See. You still can not even understand what I am saying, how can you say I am wrong if you refuse to even try to understand
I wish I'd mentioned this before, but five minutes goes by quickly. I want you to think back over my previous posts. Have I ever posted anything this judgmental toward you? Have I characterized you has someone who can 'never have any kind of normal conversation'? Have I said that you have 'no capacity to discuss things'? Have I labeled or insulted you in such a way? Have I made such character attacks toward you? Maybe I mistook you for a pre-tribber, but I apologized for that. Is that such a horrific insult?
In our brief conversation, there have been several comments about my not accepting your point of view because my mind wasn't opened, and other arguments along those lines. I just ask you read those comments you directed toward me in the quote above, and prayerfully consider if any of them apply to yourself, and if they are appropriate comments to make towards someone you just had a brief interaction with on the Internet.
It seems to me that whatever comments I made toward you that offended you were much milder than the comments you have made yourself.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
No, I ask you to provide evidence for what I believe. You were talking about me providing proof for eschatological positions I do not believe in.
No, I am not asking you to prove post-trib or some non-premil position.
It is possible they did seem like minor issues to me or I did not see a problem in what you posted and did not know what to respond to. Or maybe that was when I had to run and drive my kid somehwere. You'll have to quote specifics if you want me to know what you are talking about. I don't remember all the details as well as I did when I was younger.
What questions?
Prove that no one will be left. That is a position you hold to that I do not accept. Is something you posted in the past supposed to support that?
Again, my approach is to take didactic passages and interpret apocalyptic passages through them. If Revelation is a lot more allegorical than I have been taught, it still makes sense to me to 'anchor' my beliefs in the didactic passages. I am talking about passages like those found in the letters of Paul and the Gospels. As a pretribber, I was taught there would be some oases where the beast had not solidified his rule. Besides, 'start his kingdom with only people who rejected him' isn't accurate under any premil eschatology I know of. What about the raptured and resurrected saints? What are they? Chopped liver?
I wouldn't rule out some damned people--people destined for damnation-- being allowed to stick around for a thousand years and have some kids as a possibility. It's not my call, though. Revelation shows some people being deceived by the Devil at the end of the thousand years.
I do not see how your comment here furthers the conversation either. You assert that the Bible teaches that 'all saved people will be left on earth.' (which has to be misworded. I'm guessing you mean that all the people on the earth at the return of Christ will have been saved.) Where does the Bible teach that? I recalled in our conversation, you made a comment about he that believes to the end being saved, and if i remember right, you did not believe in eternal salvation. So I am trying to figure out where you get that everyone left on earth at Christ's return will be saved.
Here you contradict scripture.
Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
II Thessalonians 1
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you
(NKJV, emphasis mine)
The rapture is right here:
I Thessalonians 4
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
(NKJV)
I am sure you could find many passages about Christ in the Old Testament that do not refer to His death on the cross, or many passages that refer to Christ in the Old Testament that do not mention the resurrection, or many passages in the Old Testament that do not refer to Christ being betrayed by Judas.
That is not evidence against Christ dying on the cross, Christ rising from the dead, or Christ being betrayed by Judas.
I Thessalonians 4 does teach the rapture. Matthew 24:31 and II Thessalonians 2:1 do mention a gathering. You accept these as inspired scriptures, too, don't you?
I wrote, "No, I ask you to provide evidence for what I believe. " in a previous post. That should have been, "No, I do not ask you to provide evidence for what I believe" or "No, I ask you to provide evidence for what you believe." I don't remember which I meant to say, and either makes sense.eternally-gratefull said:
I am not sure which one it was. I was responding to a comment about your asking me to provide evidence for other eschatological views that I do not believe in. That was different from me asking you for evidence for what you believe in.
I posted the link so the burden of proof is on you to disprove each one of my contextual proofs! Here is the first one from my link that I want you to disprove:
First lets examine some scripture to determine who the “church saints” are:
1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that call upon the name of Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours:
From 1 Corinthians 1:2 we can conclude that all those sanctified in Christ Jesus are called saints and are the church of God:
Romans 10:12-13 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek(Gentile): for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: (13) for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Galatians 3:28-29 There can be neither Jew nor Greek(Gentile), there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye are Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, heirs according to promise.
Colossians 3:11-12 where there cannot be Greek(Gentile) and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. (12) Put on therefore, as God’s elect, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, longsuffering;
From those 3 passages we can conclude that all distinction between the Jew and Greek(Gentile) is erased as believers for we are one body in Christ Jesus, are Abraham’s seed, and called the “elect” of God:
1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (2) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
1 Peter 2:9-10 But ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (10) who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
So now that we have established that those saved in Christ are the people of God called the elect, lets see when the elect are resurrected/raptured(taken up):
Matthew 24:29-31 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
So “immediately after the tribulation” the “elect” who are “the church” who are “the saints” are gathered together with Christ in the clouds with the sound of the last trumpet
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
See. Here is how we discuss. And how things have to be taken if we are to get anywhere. Let take a look at your arguments here
1. You take that the “gathering” of Matt 24, and 1 thess 1 is equal. Or occure at the same time as the “catching up” or rapture of the church. So this is what you see. And you have every right to see it that way
And you are just using these “texts” as proof without explaining the context or anythingn of these passages. Ie. You think they say this, and it is your interpretation. Which is fine again, But there are other views.
2. I see them as two different events. And as two different things (one is a gathering, the other is a catching up. Or ressurection)
Here is why I think this
1. Context of matt 24. Jesus said he would return to earth. Because if he did not, no flesh would survive. When he returns and defeats the beast and the lost, He sends his angels to gather the elect from the 4 corners, and they most likey meet him where he is. Either way, He did nt come to save their physical life. Only to rapture them and remove them from the earth, If that was the case. He may as well just let them all die. And after we killed each other. Then come back.
2. Jesus said God will raise us, not angels
john 6 39 - This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.)
2 cor 4: 14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you.
Even 1 thess 4 says Jesus comes, and he will raise the dead, and then the living will follow (no angels involved)
3. Matt says nothign about the dead being gathered, Only that for the sake of the elect. He will come and put and end to the war and gather them (the living) from the 4 corners.
So as you can see, I have 3 points, which lead to a different interpretation. But I did not just give my interpretation. I backed it up with what I believe, and other texts..
So please stop saying i have not given any responses or told you what those passages mean. Because this is the 3rd or 4th time i have said these things.
Our disagreement is based on interpretaion of those verses. Nothing more..
No. But they do talk about jesus coming to earth as king, they do speak of him returning to destroy the final beast of Daniel. And revelations shows us, this is exactly what happens. And matt 24 jesus himself references this time
All those things you just mentioned have nothing to do with our conversation. I gave you specific passages of scripture you could look to. All you just did is further show you are not listening to a thing I am saying. Why else would you mention things which have nothign to do with the passage I spoke of?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
1. The word cloud is not mentioned in Matt 24 as to he will gather us, When the world sees him in the clouds, He comes with his armies and destroys the beast. THEN he gathers the elect. (He is already on earth by that time)
2. Matt 24 says jesus will come because if he does all life on earth will die. He comes to save the elect, Why save the elect just to rapture them? Ths makes no sense.
3. When he comes, he saves the elect. And gathers them together. Nothing here about the rapture. Nor is there anything there about the dead being raised (the elect can be translated the elect who are living, which is the context of WHY jesus returned)
In thess It says we will meet jesus in the air. It does not say the earth will witness this, it does not say he will be on a horse. it does not say he is coming to end the tribulation, it does not say he sends his angels to gather people together, It says the dead will be raised (not gathered) and those who are alive will be caught up (raptured)
You have two events. So I am sorry, Although you MAY be correct, (I will not jude you) You have failed to prove your point. And you showed why it is better to post small snipets in here. So people can give a different view. For all to see. And you to contemplate. As I have had to do for many years in my studies of end times.
Well, I'm still going to be ready, always. Rev 3:10 '....I will keep you from the hour of trial that shall come upon the whole earth...'.
Job uses the Hebrew word H376 "ish" which simply means "man" or "mankind". I don't think it is a fair interpretation to apply it to the "lineage of Cain". Nothing in the context of Job 14 justifies that. In verse 13, just like the rest of Job, Job is lamenting that God has brought all this trouble (wrath) on him and would rather go to the grave and await the resurrection because he is pretty miserable in his present condition. That's the context of the chapter.
This is where I think you are running into a bit of trouble. The Hebrew word translated "forever" in both of those verses from the Psalms is H5769 "olam". It means "long duration" or "antiquity". It is not saying that the Earth will remain forever.
This is the problem with translations sometimes. The Hebrew word mean a really "long duration" that can spans ages. It seems like forever but is not.
The English word "forever" means "for a limitless time" or "continually with the idea of never ending".
The Hebrew word does not mean that but it is the closest we have in English so the translators used "forever". The Hebrew word means a very long time that can spans ages.
The reason I mentioned Rev 21: 1 in my previous post to you is because we are told specifically that the "first earth and heaven passed away". They don't endure forever.
At this point in my studies I believe(with a twist of conjecture) that the seven days of creation represent 7~1000 year periods in which we have just entered the 7th millenium as of 9/11 or are about to enter with the start of the tribulation where God finishes His work and rests for the rest of the 7th day/millennium:
Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
I noticed in the rest of your reply to me that you rely heavily on an assumption that 1 day = 1,000 years. Premillenialists do this often but there is no Scriptural warrant for doing that. I am guessing you get this from Psalm 90: 4 and 2 Peter 3: 8.
Psalm 90: 4 says, "For a thousand years in Your sight are like yesterday when it is past, and like a watch in the night. This verse cannot be interpreted literally because "yesterday" would be a 24 hour period but a "watch in the night" is only a 3 hour period. A "thousand years" is likened to both of those things and refutes any sort of literal interpretation. The obvious point of this verse is to say that time does not have much meaning to God who is eternal.
Once again, I really would like to recommend amillennialism to you. I think you are secretly an amillennialist, you just don't know it yet.
It would clear up the problems you have with your premillennial view. The Scripture does not support any sort of 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. In fact, it contradicts it in several places. If you have any questions about that I would be happy to discuss.
I see that you are working hard for the Lord and that is great to see.
Yer know this was written to the church at Philadelphia and not you right - maybe not - ever heard of audience relevance and context?
Yes it was written for everyone to read. God throughout the Bible, spares believers, His children, from His wrath. Him, being perfect, would not punish His faithful children along with the ungodly. There will be those who become believers after the trib, seeing the prophesy fulfilled who will be persecuted.
Yes indeed and ALL ripped out of context, for there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture!
Matt 24v29-31 states: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
And many other verses!
I don't think most Christians truly understand how Father matures His saints from the milk to the meat but He clearly conceals His deeper truths by spreading out His precepts here a little, there a little so that we as kings under the King of kings must search out the truth all over His Word:
Isaiah 28:9-10 Whom will he teach knowledge? and whom will he make to understand the message? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts? (10) For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, there a little.
Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing; But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.
The word "cloud(s)" is most certainly mentioned in Mathew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 with each passage adding more truth:
Matthew 24:29-31 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:24-27 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25) and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Luke 21:25-28 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows; (26) men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. (27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (28) But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.
Jesus was clearly including the "elect" who were dead and living in the book of Mark when He when He said "from the uttermost part of the earth"(the living) "to the uttermost part of heaven"(the dead).
He was also including the "dead" as part of the "elect" when in the book of Luke Jesus said "your redemption" to the disciples including the dead with the living will be brought together in the clouds at the beginning of the year of wrath which these passages of the rapture also add more truth to the "sum":
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; (17) then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Revelation 14:12-16 Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth: yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them. (14) And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. (15) And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. (16) And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Your assumption that every passage of the rapture/resurrection must be carbon copies of each other is not how Father conceals His truths!!!
I see absolutely no "clouds" mentioned in this passage where the heavens are opened and Jesus comes with His armies at the end of that year of wrath to destroy the beast and set up His kingdom on earth:
Revelation 19:11-16 And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (12) And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems; and he hath a name written which no one knoweth but he himself. (13) And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure. (15) And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty. (16) And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.