The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

[mobius8curve]

I apologize bro. I didnt mean you specifically, just SOME people i have seen. like Jim the tv preacher.

You are correct, you deal with other topics as well

No problem bro! We are all in this together so I hope we all fulfill our parts in the body well to the glory of our Father through His Son Jesus:

Romans 12:4-21 For even as we have many members in one body, and all the members have not the same office: (5) so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and severally members one of another. (6) And having gifts differing according to the grace that was given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of our faith; (7) or ministry, let us give ourselves to our ministry; or he that teacheth, to his teaching; (8) or he that exhorteth, to his exhorting: he that giveth, let him do it with liberality; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that showeth mercy, with cheerfulness. (9) Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. (10) In love of the brethren be tenderly affectioned one to another; in honor preferring one another; (11) in diligence not slothful; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; (12) rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing stedfastly in prayer; (13) communicating to the necessities of the saints; given to hospitality. (14) Bless them that persecute you; bless, and curse not. (15) Rejoice with them that rejoice; weep with them that weep. (16) Be of the same mind one toward another. Set not your mind on high things, but condescend to things that are lowly. Be not wise in your own conceits. (17) Render to no man evil for evil. Take thought for things honorable in the sight of all men. (18) If it be possible, as much as in you lieth, be at peace with all men. (19) Avenge not yourselves, beloved, but give place unto the wrath of God: for it is written, Vengeance belongeth unto me; I will recompense, saith the Lord. (20) But if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him to drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head. (21) Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[Absolutely]

A PROPHETIC WORD UNTO YOUR Statement... My NAME saith YAHOSHUA, is the ROAD that MANY WILL NOT FIND, saith YAHOSHUA. For they are ONLY MAKING YOU TO THINK that you know Me, but you truly do not. For I AM NOT JESUS/Yeshua, in whom they had REPLACED MY SAVING NAME WITH, throughout My FATHER'S Holy Scribes/Scriptures, when I LEFT YOUR WORLD AGE. I AM NOT HIM, and My FATHER is not A GOD. He is your CREATOR in whom we call ABBA, and not GOD, but ABBA, which means FATHER.

I AM YAHOSHUA, whose NAME is SHOWING YOU THE NAMES of My “FATHER” who is “YAH” as in YAHOVEH/YAHUVEH, the “WORD” who I AM, “YOSHUA” who is also the son, as well as the “HOLY SPIRIT” which is SIGNIFIED by the “AH” that is also in My FATHER’S NAME which is “YAH” as in YAHOVEH/YAHUVEH. Which is also carrying the “SACRED LETTERS” of My FATHER’S “SACRED NAME” which is “YHVH”, not YHWH. The “YHVH” which is pronounced “YAHVEH”. which is also showing you the “YHVH”, as in Y a H o V e H / Y a H u V e H/ Y a H V e H.

I have been coming unto you many times, now, for I chasten those I love, but not for long, saith YAHOSHUA. Do not ALLOW YOURSELF to AWAKEN IN A PLACE YOU HAVE NO IDEA, WHEN, WHERE, or HOW YOU GOT THERE, saith YAHOSHUA. For you have been WARNED MANY TIMES, and not you will be HELD ACCOUNTABLE. For this has been your VISITATION, saith YAHOSHUA, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures. Luke 19:40-44 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

For it would have been BETTER FOR YOU NOT TO HAVE HEARD THESE TRUTHS. Then to have HEARD THEM, then TURN from them as a DOG RETURNS TO THERE OWN VOMIT AGAIN, saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ unto YOU, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. 2 Peter 2:20-22 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour YAHOSHUA Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Shalom

You curse the brethren through your so called prophesy.
Very pathetic strategy you have.
I personally champion intimacy with my savior.
Your catholic methods ( you can only hear God through me) is ancient error.
Stop acting like your mess is God controlling people through you.

I am sensing a spirit of witchcraft operating through you.
No doubt you are hyper narcissism. That is WHY you try to controll and manipulate through false prophecy

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am not here to promote my website but it is so much easier to post a link to my website that already addresses a discussion than copy and paste the whole content of a link! in this comment section!

How about make a few points which we can all discuss. And start from there and work forward.

That is much better than trying to send people to a thread which is quite large, it is next to impossible to discuss large posts with alot of info. let alone things like that.

I am a firm believer that any discussion requires a lot of God's Word to fully understand a specific doctrine so why not post a "hopefully" comprehensive link rather than just a few precepts so we can examine much more proof that is "here a little there a little as my website attempts to do:

Thee problem wiht this is it is next to impossible to discuss each point adequitely.. You come across as pushy not willing to discuss. Again, would be much better to make it small. and go from there.

Also. It is dangerous to follow peoples links, Never know what is there, It is not recommended.

I committed to keeping my words to less than 20% of any given link so that the passages of the Word of God that Father led me to draw together contain at least 80% of the words of any given link so He conveys His truth and all I am "hopefully" doing is compiling the sum and pointing the reader to examine what His Word is saying

Again, You can not discuss anythign this way, You can do that in a blog. But in a discussion forum, you have destroyed any discussion before it even starts.

 

[garee]

First please remember that Father never contradicts Himself so when He says the foundation of the earth will abide forever that does not mean He won't change and rearrange the surface of the earth:

Psalms 78:69 And he built his sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which he hath established for ever.
Psalms 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, That it should not be moved for ever.

The word forever is used two ways.... in respect to two Genesis's or beginnings.

Forever can mean as long as the corrupted beginning has not gone up in smoke or annihilated . Or it can mean forever as in the new heavens and earth. Both where created in the twinkling of the eye. One in view, the other a new light as the glory of God coming on the last day .

Like for instance of a Moabite it is said they will not enter the congregation of the Lord for ever. But Ruth a Moabite did enter the new born again generation by faith after the commandment in Deuteronomy..... forever and ever.

Deuteronomy 23:3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the Lord for ever

It do not seem the new beginning or Genesis to be a refurnishing of the corrupted .We do not know Christ after the rudiments of this world. God cannot be discovered under a microscope as if he was a man as us.

But a new creation. No Sun and Moon needed any longer for temporal time keepers

So yes foundations, two beginnings I the twinkling of the eye.

These are the generations (two) of the heavens and of the earth when they(two) were created, in the day(one) that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

At this point in my studies I believe(with a twist of conjecture) that the seven days of creation represent 7~1000 year periods in which we have just entered the 7th millenium as of 9/11 or are about to enter with the start of the tribulation where God finishes His work and rests for the rest of the 7th day/millennium:

Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

I would agree but it seems you are trying to apply a literal number to the signified phrase "thousand years". The number metaphor "thousand" is used throughout the scriptures represents a un-know .He will come like as a thief in the night just as in the days of Noah on the last day .

 

[Absolutely]

Matthew 12:49-50 And he stretched forth his hand towards his disciples, and said, Behold, my mother and my brethren! (50) For whosoever shall do the will of my Father who is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Yes every error has amazing examples .
Every one of them.
You are saying certain women are "Gods anointed sisters" ?
The BIBLE (Inspired HS writings) use " brethren",referring to the church.

My point is she is adding That all by herself to enforce her narcessistic agenda.

 

[Absolutely]

Why would anyone be prohibited from sharing their own website if it pertains to the discussion???

No brainer.
You,engage questions robotically by referrals.
You direct members AWAY from the forum.

 

[Deade]

I would agree but it seems you are trying to apply a literal number to the signified phrase "thousand years". The number metaphor "thousand" is used throughout the scriptures represents a un-know .He will come like as a thief in the night just as in the days of Noah on the last day .

Here are the verses to your thief in the night:

1 Thess. 5:1-3 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

But this was only addressing worldly people. What do the next verses say about believers?

1 Thess. 5:4-7 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night."

The thousand years stated in Rev. 20 is literally 1000 years, not an unknown.

 

[Absolutely]

One of those posts is not a pretrib post, and I responded to the other one. As far as your objection goes, if pre-trib is true, one could count from the day the planes fell down and the buses crashed when the Christian pilots and bus drivers were taken up and know the day. One day, we will know the day anyway, when we see Jesus comes. It hadn't been revealed back in the first century when Jesus knew that.


I do not know what kind of footwear the Savior may or may not wear. But otherwise, that sounds like an argument for pre-trib. I Thessalonians 4 puts the rapture occuring as the Lord returns, at the parousia. See verse 15.

If a Roman ambassador or emperor came for a 'parousia' visit, does it make sense that he wouldn't come to town, just go outside the city, then run off with the people who come to greet him and escort him into the city? Why would that be called a 'parousia.' He has to go there for it to be parousia, right?


Honestly, I don't know what your argument is supposed to be here. I do not know your version of pre-trib. The one I was taught had some unbelieving survivors from Jerusalem who hadn't gone to battle against Christ. It allowed for previously Israelis to survive as mortals, too.

You are assuming the tough times that the saints will face during the tribulation is 'the wrath to come.' Paul says we are not appointed unto wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

So which is it for the tribulational saints who overcome the Devil by the blood of the Lamb and the word of His testimony. Are they appointed unto wrath, or to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus' Christ? Pretribbers take a phrase out of that verse, out of context.

Also, God was able to pour out wrath on Egypt without spilling it on the saints.



It is kind of frustrating talking with pre-tribbers like yourself, honestly, because you are like a broken record. You repeat really weak arguments-- like taking a verse about wrath out of it's clear context, and ignore the didactic passages of scripture.

I would like to see you actually deal with the issue of the parousia. Since the rapture happens at the parousia (I Thes. 4:15), and the man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of the parousia (II Thes. 2:8) how can pre-trib be true? Pretrib has Jesus coming back, then the man of sin coming into power, right? I've never heard of a pretribber not thinking the beast was the man of sin.

There are actual clear teachings of Paul on this. Not all the details are there, but enough to not fit with pre-trib. Then there is no scripture that puts the rapture before the tribulation. It's assumed, and pre-tribbers find little tiny clues that require assumptions-- like the not appointed unto wrath argument, or allegoricalizing 'come up hither'-- when there is direct teaching of scripture that disqualifies pre-trib as being reasonable. The only attempt I've seen at trying to show where the Bible actually places the rapture before the tribulation-- or a scenario consistent with that-- involves redefining the apostasia to be the rapture. Other than that, I've never seen anyone even show a verse or passage that sets the timing before the tribulation.

Then there is the gathering of the saints that is clearly after the tribulation in Matthew 24. Paul calls the rapture the gathering in II Thessalonians 2:1.



Hmmm. It's kind of irritating when someone has a theory that doesn't have support and insults or questions the motives of one who has some real evidence. It isn't very persuasive to do so, either. It's annoying at best.

What motivation does one have for wanting to go through a tough time like that, or to think of one's children or grandchildren enduring it? I could just as easily ask if you are pre-trib because you do not like the idea of suffering and dying for Jesus.

You can show actual verses, quoting them, and explaining the parts you think teach pre-trib. But my approach is to interpret apocalyptic passages as consistent with didactic passages (like Paul's writings), rather than reading a theory into the apocalytic passages and trying to work Paul's writings around an eschatology.

I also ask what you do with the parousia? Do you think there are two parousia?


Can you show an actual passage that puts the timing of the rapture before the tribulation? Matthew 24 is explicit that the gathering of the elect is after the tribulation. Why should I take that to refer to something other than the rapture when Paul calls the rapture the gathering in II Thessalonians 2:1? Where is the passage that sets the timing of the rapture as pre-trib? I've seen people redefine apostasia to arrive at that conclusion, or try to allegoricalize 'Come up hither.' Is there anything more reasonable than either of those alternatives?

No,mat 24 declares angels gather,not Jesus,and the gathering is in heaven,not earth.
A gathering in heaven by angels of saints to descend on horseback to the earth with Jesus
Rev 19 also has this .

 

[Absolutely]

I watched it you missed nothing.

Missler is one of the few that is bride centered.
The rapture being the gathering of the bride.
Postribs are not interested.
They are primarily trb centered and secondly anti pretrib centererd.
The rapture as depicted by postribs is an indirect event.
Kind of a inconvienent speed bump.

(That is why you guys disconnect)

 

[Absolutely]

Post trib is a doctrine, pre trib is a doctrine, mid trib is a doctrine. There is not a single verse there are many. You can start with matthew 24. Read revelations which talks of the tribe, rapture and then the wrath of God at the 7th seal. Jesus statements agree with that part. Taking one verse to make a doctrine is impossible. Let scripture interpret scripture. I did not say I am a bible student and well versed. Those words sound like boasting. I shared my experience in reading the bible as time has gone on and what I have come to believe as the Spirit reveals. I will never be well versed no matter how many times I read the bible for it shows me more and more every day. It is a living book. M has given scripture.
Long time ago I was here and left because of the foolish arguing that got heated over certain topic. It was a disgrace to the body of Christ when unbelievers would peek in. I'm back and all I can say is Jesus wants us to be ready at all times for when he comes. He gave signs of those times also in matthew 24.
Hey if the rapture happens before trib. not a problem for believers washed in the blood. It will be a pleasant surprise for us post tribers. If you are still here for the trib. before the wrath of God ( 7th seal ) and you believed pre trib not a problem if your washed in the blood. You will just have a not pleasant surprise.
Like I said this can be argued until the bulls come home for milking.
Just please try not to argue in a way that dishonors God. Out siders are watching and walking away from Christ because of the behavior of the church.

Lets see,i challenge you to provide a verse.
You chastize me for some off topic mess.
Got it.

 

[Absolutely]

I have walked in pre-trib shoes before. I grew up that way, and eventually just let it go because I couldn't find any support for it in the Bible. I have read Revelation 14, and I do not see support for pre-trib in there either.

Instead of boasting about how great pre-trib is and demeaning post-trib, it would be helpful if you would deal with the scriptures actually mentioned. I looked back at other pages of the thread and found a brief reference from you about Revelation 14, but not any detail as to why you think this proves pre-trib. Honestly, I was using control F for the number 14 when I did that.

Like I said in a previous post, the rapture happens at the parousia according to I Thessalonians 4:15. The man of sin is destroyed by the brightness of the Lord's parousia (coming) in II Thessalonians 2:8.

That is a problem for pre-trib. Pre-trib has the rapture happening 7 years before the second coming. Then pre-trib has the beast (presumably the man of sin) taking over and persecuting the saints AFTER the rapture. Well, the rapture occurs at the parousia, and the man of sin is destroyed at the parousia.

How can pre-trib deal with this? What do you have, two parousia? Isn't that just an outlandish interpretation of scripture which just speaks of one more parousia of Christ? Or does the parousia happen for seven years? If so, you either have to have Jesus up in the sky for seven years, or you turn 'parousia' into something nearly as allegorical as what the amils do with it.

The main thing that turned me off from pre-trib is just not finding any verses in the Bible that show the rapture happening before the tribulation, before Jesus' comes back. A straightforward plain sense reading puts both events at the same time, or the rapture immediately upon Christ's return as He's descending.

Then you look at pre-trib arguments for putting the rapture in Revelation. John being told 'come up hither' is supposed to signify the rapture of the church? Talk about an allegorical interpretation that goes against the plain sense! And pre-tribbers argue for their interpretations based on literal plain sense interpretations.

The other one is 'not appointed unto wrath', which in context says we are not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Why would the saints in Revelation be under God's wrath? It is pretty clear that they are saved. So that argument doesn't work either.

I just don't see any reason to even think of pre-trib unless you are taught it. It took a few people to cook it up a hundred or so years ago. Maybe there was one confused guy in the 300's who had some sort of pre-tribby type thinking. But there is no way to get it just from reading the Bible otherwise. You have to be taught the theory. Arguments from pre-trib preachers are usually just showing how they can somehow reinterpret passages through the pre-trib theory which they already hold to, and act like they prove pre-trib. Where is the onramp to the circular highway of pre-trib reasoning?

The one exception, I suppose, would be to redefine the apostasia to mean the rapture. That seems to be a fairly recent approach, but so is pre-trib.

See this is typical.
You provide several examples of your "knowledge" of my points/Doctrine.

Most of it wrong.

Then you make a case that you believe you are appointed to wrath.

Care to start over?
My challenge stands. Provide a single postrib rapture verse.

 

[Absolutely]

His NAME is his PURPOSE.. For we cannot be SAVED unless we go through his NAME, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. John 10:1-5
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. John 10:25-30 YAHOSHUA answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.

YAHOSHUA, is the ONLY NAME that is carrying the THREE NAMES of the THREE WITNESSES that are NEEDED to BEAR RECORD to My NAME, saith YAHOSHUA. I AM YAHOSHUA, whose name is carrying the NAMES of My 'FATHER" who is "YAH" as in YAHOVEH/YAHUVEH, the "WORD" who i AM, "YOSHUA" who is also the SON, as well as the "HOLY SPIRIT" which is SIGNIFIED by the "AH" that is also in My FATHER' NAME, which is "YAH" as in YAHOVEH/YAHUVEH. Which is also CARRYING the "SACRED LETTERS" of My FATHER'S "SACRED NAME" Which is "YHVH", which is pronouced "YAHVEH", which is also showing you the "YHVH", as in Y a H o V e H / Y a H u V e H / Y a H V e H..

Remembering My FATHER had MANY NAMES, and so does LUCIFER. This is WHY, it is ONLY THROUGH MY NAME, can you be SAVED. For My FATHER nor My MOTHER can help you with this. For I HAVE BEEN GIVEN the "KEY" to the KINGDOM, saith YAHOSHUA, who is the Christ meaning the ANOINTED ONE, unto YOU, and unto the JEWS, that did not RECEIVE ME, when I CAME UNTO THEM, I AM, MESSIAH, have you not READ? Fulfiling the FATHER Scriptures. John 10:1-5

Many have called this the "TRINITY" but I have called them the THREE WITNESSES that are NEEDED to BEAR RECORD in HEAVEN as well as in EARTH. For even the DEMONS that are WITHIN THIS EARTH, KNOWS MY NAME, saith YAHOSHUA, and they TREMBLE.

For I tell you this truth this day.. If My FATHER is BEARING RECORD to My NAME. His "WORD" is "GREATER" then MAN'S, and Yes, EVEN YOURS, saith YAHOSHUA, have you not READ? Ful;filling the FATHER Scriptures... 1 John 5:7-13 FOR THERE ARE “THREE" WITNESSES THAT BEAR RECORD IN HEAVEN, THE “FATHER", THE “WORD", and THE “HOLY SPIRIT": AND THESE THREE ARE ONE. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the “SPIRIT", and the “WATER" and the “BLOOD": and these THREE all AGREE in “ONE. If we receive the WITNESS of MEN, the “WITNESS" of the FATHER is GREATER: for this is the witness of the FATHER WHICH “HE” HATH “TESTIFIED” of His “SON”. He that believeth on the Son of the FATHER HATH THE “WITNESS” IN “HIMSELF”: he that believeth NOT THE FATHER HATH MADE “HIM”, [meaning the FATHER] A “LIAR"; because he believeth not the RECORD THAT THE FATHER GAVE HIS “SON". AND THIS IS THE “RECORD" THAT THE FATHER HATH GIVEN TO US “ETERNAL LIFE", AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS “SON”. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of the FATHER hath not life. These things have I written unto you that BELIEVE ON THE “NAME" OF THE “SON" of the FATHER; THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE “ETERNAL LIFE", and that ye may believe on the name of the “SON” of the FATHER.


Shalom

No,his mame is NOT His purpose. His name is WHO he is. Once you venture out from there you find out WHY he has many names.
That is a component of His purpose. One name is INADEQUATE to encompase his purpose and testimony.
Thus his MANY NAMES.
I knew sooner or later you YESHUA ONLY proponents would actually muddy up your own deal.

Amazingly ironic that you use a piece of the beauty and lovliness of The King,and smear his testimony.
He is BIGGER than your perception and doctrinal box

 

[garee]

You need to understand who "Israel" is bro:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/12/19/all-israel/

Thanks Good work.

 

[presidente]

I guess you forgot I asked you to respond to them, and explain why they can live with post trib, Guess this is your answer, Thank you.

I responded to the one post you referred me to. The other quotes the opening verses of I Corinthians 13 and capitalizes the word 'clanging.' I'm just guessing it is directed at your style, calling it clanging. The other comment there was "Also, Jesus told us no man knows the day, yet if I'm a post tribber than I KNOW the day, because it very clearly is going to be 3.5 yrs from the moment the anti-christ parks his keister in the temple, declaring himself to be god. " I don't know how you want me to respond to that. That's not point of view, and it isn't yours. So I responded to your post, but post 31 does not represent your viewpoint.

p
vs 17 says Jesus is coming to ressurect us, (The dead in christ, and those alive) We will meet him in the sky, Not here on earth. UNlike matt 24, Where he returns to SPARE THE LIFE OF THE LIVING.

You haven't shown a contradiction here. Jesus comes down. The angels said He would return the way He went up. When He went up from the earth, a cloud received him out of their sight. When He returns, He cometh with clouds. The saints meet Him in the air as He returns. This makes sense because when government officials came for a 'parousia', people would go out to meet the official.

It seems like pretrib arguments are built on pretribbers saying this like you did there. "We will meet him in the sky, Not here on earth." That's the kind of thing pretribbers do when they go through passages of scripture, to make them fit with pre-trib.

this should PROVE it is not during the return to earth to set up his kingdom.

No, because we meet him in the air at his parousia. You don't even having Jesus coming to be present on earth at the parousia, so how is that a parousia? Parousia means 'presence'.

But in I Thessalonians 4, the resurrection and rapture happen at the parousia. See parousia in verse 15.

How can you claim it proves the rapture is the same as his return to earth to set up his kingdom. When NOTHING in chapter 4 even remotely says it has ANYTHING to do with his return to earth (not the sky)

It says this happens at His parousia. I keep pointing this out.

Your stuck on a doctrine, Try reading the word and open your heart.

Have you opened your heart? My experience with many pre-tribbers is that they are stuck on a certain way of seeing things....like you are on this... and keep spinning a pre-trib argument while quoting verses without realizing that the verses they quote do not prove pre-trib-- they are just finding places to hang them on their pre-trib chart-- and without dealing with verses that contradict pre-trib.

If I get to be with Jesus sooner and miss out on a really nasty time, that sounds good. On the other hand, I know that if we suffer with Him we shall reign with Him, so the will of God be done.

You have not shown me where they both occur at the same time. And you have not even remotely disproven pre-trib. or mid trib (you do not even know what I believe, Why do you ASSUME??

Paul writes about an event called the parousia, when Jesus will be 'present' with us again. We are waiting for the parousia.

Certain things will happen at the parousia. Here are a few.
- At the parousia, the dead in Christ will rise first and they that are alive and remain will be caught up together with him to meet the Lord in the air. (I Thes. 4, parousia in verse 15.)
- The man of sin will be destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's parousia. (II Thes. 2:8)

Assuming that the man of sin is the beast of Revelation (and what pretribber does not), the beast meets his doom after or at the second coming, toward the very end of the book. So that puts the parousia at the end of the book of Revelation, right? But I Thessalonians 4 puts the rapture at or after the parousia.

So we are looking at a post-tribulational rapture-- assuming of course that Revelation is about 'the great tribulation'-- which is a phrase used in Matthew 24.

Another set of arguments about the gathering:
- In I Thessalonians 2:1, we read about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him. (Pretribbers take the gathering to be the rapture, right.)
- In Matthew 24, the gathering of the elect from the four winds happens 'after the tribulation of those days.'

Why should these not be referring to the same gathering? Is there any reasonable reason for not believing so?

Yes when he RETURNS TO THE EARTH and DESTROYS THE BEAST. Not when he returns to the SKY and ressurects his children.

So you are saying the parousia happens twice? You believe in a second coming and a third coming?

Why would you accept that. It is not like there is any real reason to believe in pre-trib. You keep quoting verses and saying this happens here, and this happens there, but the verses don't actually say that.

As far as everyone being wiped out who is not raptured or saved after the rapture in the pretrib scenario, I do not believe that God has to wipe out every single person who did not believe. Is he going to wipe out the children? He comes to execute vengence on them that know not God. But God can do that as He wills. He doesn't have to wipe every single person who had not professed faith in Christ out of existence. The pre-trib scenario also has suvivors, some of whom-- or their descendants, later rebell after 1000 years.

I never said it did, I do nto have to, All I have to do is raise a possibility that post trib may not be correct. and show there is evidence that pre or mid trib may be true. You asserting they are the same event does not prove post trib.

It is not reasonable to assume the parousia happens twice when Paul writes about it as if it is one thing. In II Thes. 2:1 he writes about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him in II Thes. 2:1. Then in the same chapter, in verse 8, the man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of His coming. How is it reasonable to assume that He is talking about two 'comings' there, when nothing in the Bible indicates that Jesus is coming back over and over again like that after His ascension?

Your asserting this idea does not prove pre-trib is Biblical.

....
Why is it when people are confronted they always have to resort to these strawmen which does not a thing to prove their belief?

I think you need to look strawman up in the dictionary. A strawman would be if I argued against some argument you did not make, but acted like you had made it.

It isn't very productive when we are talking about what scripture teaches if you just keep asserting the pre-trib timeline instead of addressing the problems with it.

The man of sin is going to be destroyed, The rapture does not have to happen for this to occur, Why would you think it did?

I laid out the argument before, and up above. I will reiterate. I Thessalonians 4 shows us that the rapture happens at the coming of Christ. II Thessalonians 2:8 says the man of sin will be destroyed at the brightness of Christ's coming.

How can a pretrib scenario happen if the man of sin gets destroyed at the rapture? It is not a problem for post-trib. The beast meets His doom after the passage about Jesus on a white horse toward the end of Revelation, which we both would probably agree is 'the Second Coming.'

That makes no sense. And you still have not answered my questions (well you tried to answer one by saying a few lost people will survive which makes no sense at all)

I don't know how many. I don't recall saying a few. Why does it not make sense that God may allow some lost people to survive? Where is it explicit that every single one who has not become a Christian dies?

as to how things which are supposed to occur AFTER the rapture. are seen BEFORE the last trump, and return of Jesus on a horse.

Please quote specific verses.

I'll remind you of my approach-- go with the teaching of clear didactic passages and interpret apocalyptic passages in light of that.

 

[presidente]

Jesus put the return at the end of tribulation Matt 24, please look it up.

1 thess 4 has A PARTICULAR PEROUSIA which has jesus COMING (PEROUSIA) where WE MEET HIM IN THE SKY, nt HE MEETS US ON EARTH.

So then, do you think the coming of Christ at the end of the tribulation in your pre-trib scenario is the third coming or does the second coming last for seven years?

The question is it reasonable to talk about Jesus coming back again and again. Where is this justified in the Bible?

Why would Paul refer to different things when he mentioned the parousia in II Thessalonians 2:1 and 2:8. How is that reasonable? Given the dearth of evidence for pre-trib, is there any evidence that could make a pretrib scenario more likely than the idea that Jesus' 'parousia' in scripture refers to one event?

Where is the onramp for the circular highway of pre-trib reasoning? Do you have a verse that teaches it? Where is the pre-trib rapture mentioned in Revelation? Can you point me to a verse that shows it happening in that book or elswhere that puts its place in the sequence of events before the tribulation? Why shouldn't I take the 'gathering' of II Thessalonians 1:1 to refer to the same gathering that happens after the tribulation in Matthew 24?

At the very least, can you see the reasons why pre-trib seems unreasonable to me? Can you really show scripture that directly places the timing before the tribulation?

The burden of proof is on the pre-tribbers, who want to make the parousia into more than one event or however else they deal with it. The default pre-mil position should be along the lines of post-trib rapture unless there is evidence that there is more than one return of Christ in the Bible.

Please look with open heart and eyes and see why I can not see it your way.

You look with an open heart and eyes, too. We can pray for each other about that.

I have been pre-trib before. I abandoned it because I could not find it in the Bible, and I began to see some major problems with it, including some scriptures that definitely seem to contradict it.

lol. Your doing everything you can to not ee what is in front of you. Wrath, look at the OT. God used gentile nations to pour out his wrath on Israel because of her sin. The great tribulation is Gods wrath on earth, why do you think it is called the greatest tribulation mankind has ever seen, or will ever see again?

Do you think God will be angry at the saints who overcome the Devil by the blood of the Lamb and the word of His testimony. If your answer is no, then you should not be using this argument about wrath. If it is yes, then why is God's wrath against them?

Do you believe these saints who overcome the Devil by the blood of the Lamb are appointed to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ? If the answer is 'yes', you should not be using the 'not appointed unto wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ' argument. I've gotta go, but that should be enough for now.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So then, do you think the coming of Christ at the end of the tribulation in your pre-trib scenario is the third coming or does the second coming last for seven years?

The question is it reasonable to talk about Jesus coming back again and again. Where is this justified in the Bible?

Jesus only "RETURNS" ONCE (that is, to the earth). At that time, His "Parousia/Presence" will be there, for ALL to see.

At the time of our Rapture (that is, "IN THE AIR"), His "Parousia/Presence" will be THERE, that is, ONLY in the presence of "the Church which is His body," to whom the Rapture SOLELY pertains.

Why would Paul refer to different things when he mentioned the parousia in II Thessalonians 2:1 and 2:8. How is that reasonable? Given the dearth of evidence for pre-trib, is there any evidence that could make a pretrib scenario more likely than the idea that Jesus' 'parousia' in scripture refers to one event?

Paul, in 2Th2, is covering events over the ENTIRE STRETCH of SEVEN YEARS (and the singular EVENT which immediately PRECEDES those years). That is, how the one RELATES [TIME-WISE] to the other.


The 7-yr period covered in 2Th2:

--its BEGINNING (2Th2:9a [Dan9:27a(26)])

--its MIDDLE (2Th2:4 [Dan9:27b])

--its END (2Th2:8 [Dan9:27c])

(all correlating with SAME "beg/mid/end" in Dan9:27[26])

It is a mistake (commonly espoused) to say that Paul was addressing a singular point in time (a singular 24-hr day, for example), in 2Th2.

 

[calledoutones777]

No,his mame is NOT His purpose. His name is WHO he is. Once you venture out from there you find out WHY he has many names.
That is a component of His purpose. One name is INADEQUATE to encompase his purpose and testimony.
Thus his MANY NAMES.
I knew sooner or later you YESHUA ONLY proponents would actually muddy up your own deal.

Amazingly ironic that you use a piece of the beauty and lovliness of The King,and smear his testimony.
He is BIGGER than your perception and doctrinal box

I HAVE ONLY COME TO AWAKEN, NOT EVERYONE, THOSE IN WHOM MY FATHER HAD GIVEN UNTO ME!!

A PROPHETIC WORD UNTO YOU, From MY BRIDE... READ THIS, for tomorrow is LITERALLY NOT PROMISED TO YOU, and this maybe your last time to HEAR THESE TRUTHS.... For I AM YAHOSHUA, but who I AM NOT is JESUS/YESHUA, in whom they had REPLACED MY SAVING NAME WITH, throughout My FATHER’S Holy Scribes/Scriptures, when I LEFT YOUR WORLD AGE, over two thousand years ago. These are the SECRETS and MYSTERIES that I had promised that I WOULD MAKE THEM KNOWN UNTO YOU, have you not READ? Saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ unto YOU, who are of the GENTILE NATIONS, and unto the ANCESTORS of the JEWS, that did not RECEIVE ME, when I CAME UNTO THEM, I AM, MESSIAH, but who I AM NOT is JESUS/YESHUA, and My FATHER is NOT A GOD. He is your CREATOR in whom we call ABBA, which means FATHER, have you not READ? Saith YAHOSHUA, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord 'thy Father’ will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints. Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the ‘MYSTERY’, which from the ‘BEGINNING’ of the world hath been hid in ‘the Father’, who “CREATED’ all things by Yahoshua Christ.


Did I not say unto you, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be open to you... When you KNOCKED BEFORE, you let in ANOTHER INSTEAD OF ME, which the very word “ANTI" means, “INSTEAD OF". For you have WORSHIPED another father through ANOTHER son, who is NOT ME...

I AM YAHOSHUA, and this is HOW YOU FIND ME... For you FREE WILL TEST is ABOUT TO COME TO A CLOSE, and I have sent My BRIDE in whom I AM PREPARING to bring forth unto you to tell you these SECRETS and MYSTERIES, that were kept from you.. Such as My NAME, saith YAHOSHUA, in whom they had REPLACED MY SAVING NAME WITH, their JESUS/YESHUA, in whom you have NO IDEA WHO HE TRUTHY IS, saith YAHOSHUA... He is the one in WHOM YOU HAVE BEEN GREEDILY RUNNING BEHIND, only THINKING that he was ME. This is your SPOTS THAT ARE IN YOUR “FEAST OF CHARITY”, saith YAHOSHUA, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures... Jude 1:11-12 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots.

I AM YAHOSHUA, whose NAME is the ONLY NAME, that is carrying the THREE NAMES of the THREE WITNESSES that are NEEDED to BEAR RECORD in HEAVEN as well as in EARTH, for even the DEMONS, that are WITHIN THIS EARTH’S Crust, knows My NAME, and they TREMBLE. Many of you have called this the “TRINITY", and even though I never called it this.. It is okay to do so, because they are the three POSITIONS that I TAKE in this EARTH AGE, saith YAHOSHUA.... THE “FATHER” the “WORD” who I AM, “YOSHUA” as well as the “HOLY SPIRIT” all three NAMES are WITHIN MY OWN NAME. Now where in the name of JESUS/YESHUA, MUHAMMAD, BUDDHA, or any other NAME SHOWING YOU THESE THREE NAMES within their names, I ASK, and ANSWER ME, if thou have any UNDERSTANDING.. For this is YOUR SALVATION WE ARE SPEAKING ABOUT, saith YAHOSHUA, and your FREE WILL TEST that you are PRESENTLY FAILING, is about to come to an END. The Test that this WORLD have been in, since the EVENING I LEFT YOUR WORLD AGE, saith YAHOSHUA, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. YOSHUA/OSHUA/Joshua 24:13-15 And I have given you a land for which ye did not labour, and cities which ye built not, and ye dwell in them; of the vineyards and oliveyards which ye planted not do ye eat. Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD. And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

For this is HOW YOU FIND ME, who is your TRUE SAVIOR.... For you have been TERRIBLY DECEIVED THROUGH YOUR FREE WILL TEST, that began the EVENING, I LEFT YOUR WORLD AGE... Listen to My WORDS, for they are SPIRIT and they are TRUTH, to those in whom My FATHER had given unto Me... For I AM YAHOSHUA, whose NAME is carrying the NAMES of My “FATHER" who is “YAH" as in YAHOVEH/YAHUVEH, the “WORD" who I AM, “YOSHUA" who is also the SON, and the “HOLY SPIRIT" which is SIGNIFIED by the “AH" that is also in My FATHER’S NAME, which “YAH" as in “YAHOVEH/YAHUVEH". Which is also carrying the “SACRED LETTERS" of My FATHER’S “SACRED NAME" which is “YHVH", which is pronounced “YAHVEH". Which is also showing you the “YHVH" which is also in My FATHER’S NAMES.. Y a H o V e H/ Y a H u V e H / Y a H V e H.

For remember I told you that My FATHER had MANY NAMES and so does LUCIFER. This is WHY, it is ONLY THROUGH MY NAME, can you be SAVED. For My FATHER, nor My MOTHER, can help you with this.. For I have been GIVEN THE “KEY” to the KINGDOM, saith YAHOSHUA. This is why, I AM that DOOR that you must come through, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. John 10:1-5 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

For I tell you this truth this day. If My FATHER is BEARING RECORD TO MY NAME.. His “WORD” is “GREATER” then MAN’S, and YES, EVEN YOURS, saith YAHOSHUA, who is the Christ meaning the ANOINTED ONE, unto the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the ANCESTORS of the JEWS, that did not RECEIVE ME, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures...1John 5:7-13 FOR THERE ARE “THREE" WITNESSES THAT BEAR RECORD IN HEAVEN, THE “FATHER", THE “WORD", and THE “HOLY SPIRIT": AND THESE THREE ARE ONE. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the “SPIRIT", and the “WATER" and the “BLOOD": and these THREE all AGREE in “ONE. If we receive the WITNESS of MEN, the “WITNESS" of the FATHER is GREATER: for this is the witness of the FATHER WHICH “HE” HATH “TESTIFIED” of His “SON”. He that believeth on the Son of the FATHER HATH THE “WITNESS” IN “HIMSELF”: he that believeth NOT THE FATHER HATH MADE “HIM”, [meaning the FATHER] A “LIAR"; because he believeth not the RECORD THAT THE FATHER GAVE HIS “SON". AND THIS IS THE “RECORD" THAT THE FATHER HATH GIVEN TO US “ETERNAL LIFE", AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS “SON”. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of the FATHER hath not life. These things have I written unto you that BELIEVE ON THE “NAME" OF THE “SON" of the FATHER; THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE “ETERNAL LIFE", and that ye may believe on the name of the “SON” of the FATHER.

Continue to Part 2...

 

[calledoutones777]

Part 2...
I AM YAHOSHUA, BUT WHO I AM NOT is JESUS/YESHUA, in whom they had REPLACED MY SAVING NAME WITH, throughout My FATHER’S Holy Scribes/Scriptures, when I LEFT YOUR WORLD AGE. Just as they had done unto YOU. When they “ADDED” The Title of GOD, then DECEIVE the WHOLE WORLD into calling your CREATOR, by the Title of GOD. He is NOT A GOD, BIG or little ‘g’. He is your CREATOR in whom we call ABBA, and not GOD, but ABBA, which means FATHER, have you not READ? Saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ, unto you, who are of the GENTILE
NATIONS/NATIONALITIES called MANKIND, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures...Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, the FATHER hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “ABBA", Father. Mark 14:36 And he said, “ABBA", Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. Roman 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, “ABBA", Father.

For there is only ONE “GOD” in this “WORLD”, and his name is SATAN. It is SATAN who have been STANDING BEHIND the Title of GOD, in whom they have DECEIVED you into CALLING UPON, through your DEVOTIONS, INSTEAD of your CREATOR in which we call ABBA, which means FATHER. It is SATAN who have BLINDED THE MINDS of My FATHER’S CHILDREN UNAWARES. For even PAUL was WARNING YOU OF THIS, when HE SAID that My FATHER DID NOT DWELL IN YOUR TEMPLES/CHURCHES, that you have built, have you not READ, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures...
2 Corinthians 4:4 IN WHOM THE “GOD" OF THIS “WORLD" HATH BLINDED THE MINDS OF THEM WHICH BELIEVE NOT, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of the FATHER, should shine unto them. Acts 17:22-24 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. The FATHER that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands.

Did I not say unto you, to BE NOT ASHAMED a WORKMEN NEEDS NOT BE ASHAMED THAT “RIGHTLY" DIVIDES the WORD OF TRUTH, have you not READ? Saith YAHOSHUA, who is the Christ, meaning the ANOINTED ONE unto the GENTILE NATIONS, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures... 2 Timothy 2:14-15 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto the FATHER, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more un fatherliness.

For you have been TERRIBLY DECEIVED. For this WORLD have RECEIVED CAIN, who is SATAN son, who have been HIDING FROM YOU SINCE THE BEGINNING. It is CAIN, Satan son, who have been STANDING BEHIND the NAME of JESUS/YESHUA in whom they had REPLACED MY SAVING NAME WITH, throughout My FATHER’S Holy Scribes/Scriptures, when I LEFT YOUR WORLD AGE. It is CAIN, who is Satan son, in whom you have been GREEDILY RUNNING BEHIND FOR “REWARD” UNAWARES... For these are the “SPOTS” that are in your “FEAST OF CHARITY” saith YAHOSHUA, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures..
Jude 1:11-13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are unfatherly among them of all their unfatherly deeds which they have unfatherly committed, and of all their hard speeches which unfatherly sinners have spoken against him.

And this is what I have sent not only a Prophetess unto you, who have come in the spirit of Deborah. She is Deborah in whom My FATHER had sent unto Israel to prepare and ARMY for HIM, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

Now I have sent her spirit back, but this she has come unto YOU, who are of the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, to TESTIFY unto the CHURCHES who I AM, saith YAHOSHUA. For she is many orders unto Me, she is Thy Sister Elect in whom I have said to GREET THEE, as well as My BRIDE, in whom I have promised to send unto you, have you not READ THE END OF MY FATHER’S WORDS, saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ unto YOU, who are of the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD called MANKIND, and unto the JEWS, that ANCESTORS, did not RECEIVE ME, when I CAME unto THEM, I AM, MESSIAH, have you not READ, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. Revelation 22:16-17 I YAHOSHUA HAVE SENT MINE “ANGEL", [which means a messenger] TO TESTIFY UNTO YOU THESE THINGS IN THE “CHURCHES”. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. AND THE “SPIRIT”, [who I AM, saith YAHOSHUA] and the “BRIDE” [who she is, who is speaking to you now] SAY COME. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

2 John 1:1-2 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth. For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
2 John 1:9-13 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not “the Father”. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Father’s speed: For he that biddeth him “GOD” speed is partaker of his evil deeds. Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, AND SPEAK FACE TO FACE, that our joy may be full. “THE CHILDREN OF THY ELECT SISTER GREET THEE. Amen.


Shalom.

 

[calledoutones777]

No brainer.
You,engage questions robotically by referrals.
You direct members AWAY from the forum.

A Prophetic word for CONFIRMATION.. I AM NOT TAKING YOU OUT OF THIS WORLD, for I have NEVER PROMISED you a RAPTURE, for I have never promised you that I would do that, why would I. For I AM COMING TO YOU, so where are you wanting to go, I ASK, and ANSWER ME, if thou have any understanding. For you are not coming to Me, for I AM coming unto YOU, with Heaven in My hands, saith YAHOSHUA, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. John 17:15-20
I PRAY "NOT" THAT THOU shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word.



I AM YAHOSHUA who is the Christ meaning the ANOINTED ONE, unto YOU, who are of the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH. But who I AM NOT is JESUS/Yeshua in whom they had "REPLACED" MY SAVING NAME WITH, throughout My FATHER'S Holy Scribes/Scriptures, WHEN I LEFT YOUR WORLD AGE, which was also when your FREE WILL TEST, had begun. I AM NOT JESUS/Yeshua who have taught you his lies and traditions that is NOT MY FATHER’S WORDS, have you not READ.. For My FATHER is AGAINST THOSE that teach his CHILDREN to "FLY" to "SAVE" their "SOULS". He is AGAINST THIS FOOLISHNESS, saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ, unto YOU, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the Father Scriptures...
Ezekiel 13:20- 23 Wherefore thus saith the Lord thy FATHER; Behold, I am against your pillows, WHEREWITH YE THERE "HUNT" THE SOULS TO MAKE THEM "FLY", and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

For I have PRAYED to My FATHER NOT TO TAKE YOU OUT OF THE WORLD, but rather to PROTECT YOU FROM THE EVIL that is about to come unto you soon. And this is ONLY DONE THROUGH MY NAME, saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ unto YOU, who are of the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, who are YOU, and unto the JEWS, that did not RECEIVED ME, when I came unto them, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. John 17:6-9 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. John 17:15:20 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

They have been lying to you in their JESUS/Yeshua name, in whom they had "REPLACED" MY SAVING NAME WITH, THROUGHOUT My FATHER'S Holy Scribes/Scriptures, the EVENING I LEFT YOUR WORLD AGE. Just as they had done unto YOU. When the "ADDED" the Title of GOD, then DECEIVED YOU, into WORSHIPING A "GOD", who BACKWARDS, which Satan loves to do, is the VERY "DOG", in which I told the GENTILE WOMAN, that Ancestors were worshiping a GOD, instead of their "CREATOR", in whom we call ABBA, and not GOD, but ABBA, which means FATHER, have you not read, or have they not taught you this? Saith YAHOSHUA, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures... Matthew 15:22-28 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then YAHOSHUA answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

For there is ONLY ONE GOD that is IN THIS WORLD, and his name is SATAN. For he is the GOD that has blinded the MINDS of My FATHER'S CHILDREN, saith YAHOSHUA, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures..
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of the FATHER, should shine unto them. Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our the FATHER into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord thy FATHER, and our Lord YAHOSHUA Christ.

For your "CREATOR" is not called GOD. His "TITLE is "ABBA", which means FATHER, have you not read, or have they not taught you this? Saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ unto YOU, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, the FATHER hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “ABBA", Father. Mark 14:36 And he said, “ABBA", Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. Roman 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, “ABBA", Father.

Shalom

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I responded to the one post you referred me to. The other quotes the opening verses of I Corinthians 13 and capitalizes the word 'clanging.' I'm just guessing it is directed at your style, calling it clanging.

Why do you even bother? Clanging has absolutely nothing to do with what I asked.

The other comment there was "Also, Jesus told us no man knows the day, yet if I'm a post tribber than I KNOW the day, because it very clearly is going to be 3.5 yrs from the moment the anti-christ parks his keister in the temple, declaring himself to be god. " I don't know how you want me to respond to that. That's not point of view, and it isn't yours. So I responded to your post, but post 31 does not represent your viewpoint.

If it was not my point of view I never would have asked. You assume way to much, then expect me to listen to you? It also proves you have barely read anythign I have posted. If you did, you would know otherwise.

You haven't shown a contradiction here. Jesus comes down. The angels said He would return the way He went up. When He went up from the earth, a cloud received him out of their sight. When He returns, He cometh with clouds. The saints meet Him in the air as He returns. This makes sense because when government officials came for a 'parousia', people would go out to meet the official.

It can not make sense, Because WAY to much has to occure from the time we are ressurected. Until we can even come down. Plus as already shown. You have NO ONE LEFT ON EARTH.

You ca spin it how you want, but two many unanswered problems with the thinking that the rapture and return at end of tribulation are the same

It seems like pretrib arguments are built on pretribbers saying this like you did there. "We will meet him in the sky, Not here on earth." That's the kind of thing pretribbers do when they go through passages of scripture, to make them fit with pre-trib.

Ok, I am done with your nonsense

1. You refuse to answer questions
2. You attack instead of actually trying to discuss
3. You assume things not in evidence (I have never claimed to be pre-trib)
4. Your arguing based on what you have been taught I believe, Not on what we actually do believe.

Good luck, As usual with people. You can never have any kind of normal converstaion because your to busy trying to prove yourself right, then trying to understand what the other person is saying, meaning you have no capacity to discuss things, because your main points are based on false truths.