The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

[mobius8curve]

Some people are almost obsessed with post-trib rapture. Its their main doctrine, the most important doctrine in the Bible.
Usually these people are into "prepping", some go so far as to sell you survival goods and make a good buck.

Sorry but I am not a prepper nor do I sell stuff and my website proves I deal with more topics than the truth about the timing of the rapture:

https://sumofthyword.com/

 

[mobius8curve]

Hello Hevosmies,

And I would also add that, only those great tribulation saints and the woman/Israel who will be cared for out in the wilderness during that last 3 1/2 years, are those who will enter in and repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom. None of the wicked who survives God's wrath and remains alive when Jesus returns will enter into the millennial kingdom, but will be killed by that double-edged sword - Rev.19:17-18, 21.

You need to understand who "Israel" is bro:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/12/19/all-israel/

 

[mobius8curve]

^ Agreed, that ONLY "the righteous" (the "BLESSED") will enter the MK time period. [those born to them later are not "BORN automatically righteous"]

_____

In Scripture, where the phrase "the Day of the Lord" is used in the same context with the phrase "IN THAT DAY," it is referring to the SAME TIME PERIOD.

Such is the case in 2 Thessalonians 2, chpts 1 and 2 (2Th1:10 and 2Th2:2-3).

In that YET FUTURE "time period" ("the Day of the Lord"/"IN THAT DAY") people will either come to believe what is TRUE (2Th1:10b) or they will believe and embrace the "pseudei / the false" (2Th2:10-12). These will be the two choices.

There will still be religious people (those who "come in His name," but who do not possess HIS LIFE [thus were not raptured]) existing on the earth AFTER our Rapture... and these will "put-Scripture-together" but in such a way [being not "understood"] as Satan uses/will use it TO DECEIVE...

Here is a good link to help you understand 2 Thessalonians chapter 2:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/01/18/the-mystery-of-lawlessness/

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The rapture/resurrection takes place "after the tribulation" at the beginning of the year of wrath and the return of Christ onto the earth takes place at the end of the year of wrath! No where in this link did I confuse the two different events as you try to surmise:

My post there was not addressing the OP. It was covering more the thoughts expressed by another who stated they believe "Parousia" ONLY pertains to a singular point in the chronology. (I believe it was presidente.)


EDIT: I do not believe Noah/ark represents or pertains to the Church and its Rapture [compare Dan2:35 and Gen9:1 "[actively] FILL/FILLED the [whole] earth"; in the Matt24:37-51 and Luke 17:26 passages and context; ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/etc" speaks to His Second Coming to the earth (NOT our Rapture)]

 

[Ahwatukee]

You need to understand who "Israel" is bro:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/12/19/all-israel/

I understand who Israel is and what her role is and the prophecies yet to be fulfilled in her, bro.

Apparently you don't or you wouldn't have provided someone else's teaching link.

 

[p_rehbein]

Given that we are currently in the tribulations, can the rapture be far behind?

ARE YOU READY?

 

[mobius8curve]

I understand who Israel is and what her role is and the prophecies yet to be fulfilled in her, bro.

I suggest you study this link bro as it is not entirely as you have been led to believe:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/12/19/all-israel/

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One of those posts is not a pretrib post, and I responded to the other one. As far as your objection goes, if pre-trib is true, one could count from the day the planes fell down and the buses crashed when the Christian pilots and bus drivers were taken up and know the day. One day, we will know the day anyway, when we see Jesus comes. It hadn't been revealed back in the first century when Jesus knew that.

One was my post and you just responded to it. And the other was also a pretrib post.

Please try again.

I do not know what kind of footwear the Savior may or may not wear. But otherwise, that sounds like an argument for pre-trib. I Thessalonians 4 puts the rapture occuring as the Lord returns, at the parousia. See verse 15.

Boots on the ground is a military term, It means an army has made landfall

Rapture is God ressurecting the dead and living who are saved, abd meeting them in the sky.

2 different events.

Your trying to make them one event, You can;t

If a Roman ambassador or emperor came for a 'parousia' visit, does it make sense that he wouldn't come to town, just go outside the city, then run off with the people who come to greet him and escort him into the city? Why would that be called a 'parousia.' He has to go there for it to be parousia, right?

Lol.. No one will see Jesus at the rapture but the people he ressurects. We meet him in the clouds, The clouds hide his view from the people left behind.

Everyone will see him when he returns to earth.

Your making two events one. They are NOT one event, It would help if you learned the difference between the 2.

The rapture is not Gods presence on earth, thats the first thing you have to stop thinking. Gods presence will be when he comes riding a horse with his robe dipped in blood. And defeats the beasts armies and all non believers are wiped out. Gods wrath is completed. And his kingdom age is starts.

Thats NOT the rapture..The rapture (which comes from the word to catch up) is when the ressurection takes place. We meet him in the sky, not here on earth. Then we are taken to the bema seat judgment and rewarded for all we have done. THEN after God does this, when he returns, we return with him when he returns to EARTH. (Or what you call the perousia)

Honestly, I don't know what your argument is supposed to be here. I do not know your version of pre-trib. The one I was taught had some unbelieving survivors from Jerusalem who hadn't gone to battle against Christ. It allowed for previously Israelis to survive as mortals, too.

You are assuming the tough times that the saints will face during the tribulation is 'the wrath to come.' Paul says we are not appointed unto wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

So which is it for the tribulational saints who overcome the Devil by the blood of the Lamb and the word of His testimony. Are they appointed unto wrath, or to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus' Christ? Pretribbers take a phrase out of that verse, out of context.

Jesus said there will be great tribulation as has not seen since the begining of time. Thats Gods wrath. Anyone living at that time will suffer Gods wrath 1/3 of the world will be destroyed. Christion or non christian.

144000 jewish missionaries will be sent out to spread the gospel. Why have them if the church is stil here.

And a few people may live? Again, Jesus said whoever endured to the end (of those who have been saved) will enter in..

Take jesus at his words.. he tells you plain and simple. He was nto talking about eternal life here, but physical salvation.

Also, God was able to pour out wrath on Egypt without spilling it on the saints.

Trying to compair a wrath at a river crossing, after the jews had already left, and whole earth tribulation is liek trying to comapir apples and oranges, You will have to do better than that

Had to cut post in 2 parts was too long.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I understand who Israel is and what her role is and the prophecies yet to be fulfilled in her, bro.

Apparently you don't or you wouldn't have provided someone else's teaching link.

Just FYI, the church did not take Israel's place. The church is made up of both Jew and Gentiles, but there are also unfinished prophesies decreed upon the nation Israel, which will be fulfilled during that last seven years of the seventy sevens that were decreed upon them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Continued

It is kind of frustrating talking with pre-tribbers like yourself, honestly, because you are like a broken record. You repeat really weak arguments-- like taking a verse about wrath out of it's clear context, and ignore the didactic passages of scripture.

The same could be said about you. DO you have any actual information which may change my mind, or are you just going to sit there and belittle me, and prove nothing but you have no desire to discuss at all.

would like to see you actually deal with the issue of the parousia. Since the rapture happens at the parousia (I Thes. 4:15), and the man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of the parousia (II Thes. 2:8) how can pre-trib be true? Pretrib has Jesus coming back, then the man of sin coming into power, right? I've never heard of a pretribber not thinking the beast was the man of sin.

I have dealt with it, Your the one not dealing with it, You have two events happening at exactly the same time, and refuse to acknowledge the things which would prebvent these things from being able to happen at the same time.

Now if you disagree with me, thats one thing, but to say I am not dealing with it. Well you just let your prie show again. And are not sticking to the issue. Is it because you can’t?

There are actual clear teachings of Paul on this. Not all the details are there, but enough to not fit with pre-trib. Then there is no scripture that puts the rapture before the tribulation. It's assumed, and pre-tribbers find little tiny clues that require assumptions-- like the not appointed unto wrath argument, or allegoricalizing 'come up hither'-- when there is direct teaching of scripture that disqualifies pre-trib as being reasonable. The only attempt I've seen at trying to show where the Bible actually places the rapture before the tribulation-- or a scenario consistent with that-- involves redefining the apostasia to be the rapture. Other than that, I've never seen anyone even show a verse or passage that sets the timing before the tribulation.

Then there is the gathering of the saints that is clearly after the tribulation in Matthew 24. Paul calls the rapture the gathering in II Thessalonians 2:1.

You seem to be stuck on one passage, which I have already showed a much different view and why.

Pre tribbers like to take the whole councel of God and not make a doctrin out of one passage.

Matt 24 is Jesus returning to save the life of the living elect who would have been killed if he did not return. And has notihng to do with any rapture. It has to do with the living, not the dead.

2 thess. Already been answered

Hmmm. It's kind of irritating when someone has a theory that doesn't have support and insults or questions the motives of one who has some real evidence. It isn't very persuasive to do so, either. It's annoying at best.

What motivation does one have for wanting to go through a tough time like that, or to think of one's children or grandchildren enduring it? I could just as easily ask if you are pre-trib because you do not like the idea of suffering and dying for Jesus.

You can show actual verses, quoting them, and explaining the parts you think teach pre-trib. But my approach is to interpret apocalyptic passages as consistent with didactic passages (like Paul's writings), rather than reading a theory into the apocalytic passages and trying to work Paul's writings around an eschatology.

I also ask what you do with the parousia? Do you think there are two parousia?

So its ok for you to attack and do this. But not for others to return the favor? Sorry I do not play that game, What comes around goes around. As I said, Your the only person I ever met who never saw one verse which possibly supports one view. There is only one reason in my mind why that is.

Parousia I am assuming means presence.

I told you once I told you over and over. There IS NO PRESENCE in the RAPTURE. God meets us in the couds. NOT HERE ON EARTH. If post trib were true, God would meet us ON EARTH not in the clouds.

Either way, If I am here during the tribulation or not does not bother me, I will be prepaired either way. Because satan can not hurt me, he can just take my life..but he can;t have my soul. So pre tribbers do not think like your strawman says.. True believers do not worry about those types of things..

If I am here during tribulation I will be trying to bring people to christ. Nothing will change, But I see to much evidence which refutes a post trib or post mill interpretations. So I must follow Gods word.

Can you show an actual passage that puts the timing of the rapture before the tribulation? Matthew 24 is explicit that the gathering of the elect is after the tribulation. Why should I take that to refer to something other than the rapture when Paul calls the rapture the gathering in II Thessalonians 2:1? Where is the passage that sets the timing of the rapture as pre-trib? I've seen people redefine apostasia to arrive at that conclusion, or try to allegoricalize 'Come up hither.' Is there anything more reasonable than either of those alternatives?

Once again, Matt 24 is jesus coming to save the living, not rapture the dead. Your adding to the word. 2 thess is not the same time as matt 24. One is christ ressurecting the dead. The other is God comming to put an end to tribulation before all life ceases to exust because we killed each other off. And to set up his kingdom
if you want to make them the same, you have to answer the question we have asked. Youhave failed to adequately do this task.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you would actually study this link you would see there is a 7 year tribulation of the saints on earth. Then "immediately after the tribulation" the year of wrath commences in which God and His Son pour out their wrath on the vessels of dishonor. 40 days into that wrath is when the saints that are left are raptured up along with the resurrected:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

Nowhere does the scripture teach that every living soul is going to be killed when Jesus comes back at the end of that year of wrath but it does say "he shall rule them with a rod of iron":

Revelation 19:13-16 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (16) And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Ok.

1 there is no tribulation of the saints. It is tribulation of the earth, Also called the time of Jacobs trouble. (As God uses this mass tribuation to bring Israel to repentance)
2. The 7 years ends the time of the gentiles. As Christ, the rock Comes and wipes out the final gentile beast and set up his kingdom

Not sure what bible you are reading, but I would find another one.

 

[PennEd]

I think there's something about promoting your own website in tos that prohibits it.

 

[mobius8curve]

I understand who Israel is and what her role is and the prophecies yet to be fulfilled in her, bro.

Apparently you don't or you wouldn't have provided someone else's teaching link.

This is my link from my website:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/12/19/all-israel/

 

[mobius8curve]

I think there's something about promoting your own website in tos that prohibits it.

Why would anyone be prohibited from sharing their own website if it pertains to the discussion???

 

[Ahwatukee]

You need to understand who "Israel" is bro:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/12/19/all-israel/

What you're insinuating with this link is replacement theology, which is a false teaching. God is not finished with His people Israel as some erroneously believe and teach. In Daniel 9:24 we are told that "Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city." Those seventy sevens are divided up into 3 parts:

1). seven 7 year periods to restore and rebuild Jerusalem

2). Sixty two 7 year periods, at the end of which the Messiah would be cut off/crucified

3). He (the antichrist) will make a seven year covenant with many, initiating the last seven

Number (3) has yet to be fulfilled and it is specifically for Israel. During that last seven years, God will also be pouring out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world. In both Matt.24:15-22 and Rev.12:6, 14 the woman/Israel will flee out into the wilderness at the setting up of the abomination, which the ruler, that antichrist will set up in the middle of the seven years. It is at this time that God will care for the woman/Israel during that last 3 1/2 until Christ returns to the earth to end the age.

We know that the woman of Rev.12 is representing Israel from Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:9-10 because the same symbolic symbols of the sun, moon and stars are used in Revelation 12 stating that a woman was clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars. Paul also spoke about literal Israel (not the church), but Israel in the following manner:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved"

“The Deliverer will come from Zion;

He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

And this is My covenant with them

when I take away their sins.”

Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. For God has consigned all men to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Therefore, there is the church, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile and there is also the nation Israel, with whom God will fulfill those last seven years with, as well as other prophesies.

Replacement theology is just another lie perpetrated by Satan and carried into the world through so-called Christians who have become his foot soldiers.

Both Israel and the great tribulation saints who make it through God's wrath alive until Christ returns to end the age, will be those who will enter in and repopulate the millennial period. The dead in Christ who will have been resurrected and the living who will have been changed and previously caught up, will be in their immortal and glorified bodies ruling with Christ during His millennial
kingdom.

Make no mistake, God has not abandoned the nation Israel.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I suggest you study this link bro as it is not entirely as you have been led to believe:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/12/19/all-israel/

That's the point, I haven't been led to believe anything, as I have done my own studies for 45 years. So I am quite aware that Israel and the church are two separate entities, each with separate programs.

However, the fact that you provided someone else's link demonstrates that you are trusting in someone else's teaching and not from your own studies.

 

[Sipsey]

I’m kinda new here but not to grace. It is sadly predictable that bouncy types want everyone to know what “they” believe. They inundate with their “proof texts” and are belligerent. They don’t debate but dictate and belittle anyone who calls their hand. It’s called immaturity. That’s the problem with the church today, allowing orthodoxy to be pushed to the corner by “enlightened” children.

 

[mobius8curve]

What you're insinuating with this link is replacement theology, which is a false teaching. God is not finished with His people Israel as some erroneously believe and teach. In Daniel 9:24 we are told that "Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city." Those seventy sevens are divided up into 3 parts:

1). seven 7 year periods to restore and rebuild Jerusalem

2). Sixty two 7 year periods, at the end of which the Messiah would be cut off/crucified

3). He (the antichrist) will make a seven year covenant with many, initiating the last seven

Number (3) has yet to be fulfilled and it is specifically for Israel. During that last seven years, God will also be pouring out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world. In both Matt.24:15-22 and Rev.12:6, 14 the woman/Israel will flee out into the wilderness at the setting up of the abomination, which the ruler, that antichrist will set up in the middle of the seven years. It is at this time that God will care for the woman/Israel during that last 3 1/2 until Christ returns to the earth to end the age.

We know that the woman of Rev.12 is representing Israel from Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:9-10 because the same symbolic symbols of the sun, moon and stars are used in Revelation 12 stating that a woman was clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars. Paul also spoke about literal Israel (not the church), but Israel in the following manner:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved"

“The Deliverer will come from Zion;

He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

And this is My covenant with them

when I take away their sins.”

Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. For God has consigned all men to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Therefore, there is the church, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile and there is also the nation Israel, with whom God will fulfill those last seven years with, as well as other prophesies.

Replacement theology is just another lie perpetrated by Satan and carried into the world through so-called Christians who have become his foot soldiers.

Both Israel and the great tribulation saints who make it through God's wrath alive until Christ returns to end the age, will be those who will enter in and repopulate the millennial period. The dead in Christ who will have been resurrected and the living who will have been changed and previously caught up, will be in their immortal and glorified bodies ruling with Christ during His millennial
kingdom.

Make no mistake, God has not abandoned the nation Israel.

No where in that link did I say Israel is replaced for a remnant of physical Israel will be grafted back into the ONE olive tree near the end of the tribulation but you had better study Ephesians 2:11-22 a little better for the commonwealth of Israel is made up of Gentiles too which I covered here:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/12/19/all-israel/

 

[presidente]

One was my post and you just responded to it. And the other was also a pretrib post.

If you had the right post, I do not know why you directed me to it.

Rapture is God ressurecting the dead and living who are saved, abd meeting them in the sky.

2 different events.

Your trying to make them one event, You can;t

A passage in I Thessalonians 4 is about the rapture. Verse 15 proves that this occurs during the parousia. Pre-trib disproven.

Do you have some explanation as to how the rapture can occur at the second coming, but happen 7 years before the second coming?

Lol.. No one will see Jesus at the rapture but the people he ressurects. We meet him in the clouds, The clouds hide his view from the people left behind.

The Bible says every eye shall see Him. What is your Biblical justification for more than one second coming. I Corinthians 15 says that they that are His will be made alive at His coming. You have this happening seven years before his coming.

Everyone will see him when he returns to earth.

Your making two events one. They are NOT one event, It would help if you learned the difference between the 2.

Your asserting this idea does not prove pre-trib is Biblical.

The rapture is not Gods presence on earth, thats the first thing you have to stop thinking.

You telling me what to think or what not to think does not prove anything. Show me pre-trib in the Bible. Try to explain the scriptures that contradict pre-trib. How is the man of sin going to be destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's coming if the rapture occurs at the coming of the Lord, I Thes. 4:15 and II Thes. 2:8. Why don't you go ahead and try to explain these scriptures.

Thats NOT the rapture..The rapture (which comes from the word to catch up) is when the ressurection takes place. We meet him in the sky, not here on earth. Then we are taken to the bema seat judgment and rewarded for all we have done. THEN after God does this, when he returns, we return with him when he returns to EARTH. (Or what you call the perousia)

Why is it pre-tribbers just assert stuff over and over again to try to spin the Biblical accounts to fit with pretrib instead of proving pretrib from scripture?

And you just put the parousia at the end of tribulation, when I Thessalonians 4:15 puts it at or immediately before the rapture/resurrection. Please look up I Thessalonians 4:!5 in a Greek interlinear.

Jesus said there will be great tribulation as has not seen since the begining of time. Thats Gods wrath. Anyone living at that time will suffer Gods wrath 1/3 of the world will be destroyed. Christion or non christian.

144000 jewish missionaries will be sent out to spread the gospel. Why have them if the church is stil here.

Sorry, that last question makes me think of the middle school kids saying 'duh.' Jews who believe in Jesus are part of the church.

Tribulation is not wrath. Wrath means anger. Do you think God will be angry at the saints during the tribulation? Do you think they are appointed unto wrath and not to obtain salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ. Look up that 'not appointed unto wrath' verse and read the whole thing.

And a few people may live? Again, Jesus said whoever endured to the end (of those who have been saved) will enter in..


Take jesus at his words.. he tells you plain and simple. He was nto talking about eternal life here, but physical salvation.

If that's how you take it, I don't see how you use that as some kind of pre-trib argument. The gathering takes place after the tribulation in this passage.

 

[Ahwatukee]

This is my link from my website:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/12/19/all-israel/

Well then, you are in error in your assumption, as God still has unfulfilled prophesies for His people, the nation Israel. You didn't come to the conclusion of replacement theology on your own, as it is a well known false teaching.