="BillG, post: 3787184, member: 252071"]Ok let's see if I can bring some clarity here.
I responded to the following question
To which I answered "Jesus would" and I posted
Matthew 7:21-23
I Never Knew You
(Luke 6:46; 13:26, 27)
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
So here we see people calling Jesus Lord and saying we have done this and done that.
They claim great things but he says "Depart from me I never knew you"
To not know is to not have a relationship.
Does Jesus want our works or relationship?
Does he want relationship that leads to works out of love?
Jesus himself said "If you love me you will obey my commands"
What is the will of the Father?
To believe in Jesus.
So what I was trying to convey is that Jesus saw through the reasons of those who claimed obedience and will say "I never knew you, depart from me"
I don't think Jesus rejected these folks because they helped people in Christ's name Billy. It doesn't say He rejected them because they taught folks in His Name.
He said He rejected them "BECAUSE" they were practicing Lawlessness. Then He went on to discuss the important difference between a man who hears His Word's and "DOETH" them as opposed to those who hear His Word's and "doeth them NOT".
I understand how "obedience" to God is characterized in modern religions so I understand how this seems to contradict what we have both grown up hearing. But in this parable; Those who had just been resurrected, they saw the lake of fire, and they realized their fate, were defending their religion. Not once did they say "We have kept thy commandments" or "We have followed thy precepts".
I think you are injecting your own words and thoughts here. No offence, but these were not claiming obedience, rather, they were defending their religious traditions, the works they did in Christ's Name.
7:23: I never knew you: These people were never converted, even though they did great things in God’s name. They break God’s laws through rejection of the Father’s will as taught by Jesus. Having never known Christ, they never learned to do what he commanded. (Bible study notes)
I agree, they believed they were saved, they were convinced they were saved, but they were not. Jesus indicated it was because they rejected God's Laws (iniquity) . I have no reason to question Him.
Listen, I have no issues that obedience follows genuine faith.
It's my prayer for myself every day, and I'm sure it's the same for everyone on this thread. Some bear more fruit than others, so grow quicker than others. Let's not forget that.
After all that's what wants us to be.
But based on love and not be saved.
Love God, love your neighbours, love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you.
I'm sure those in Matt. 7 followed some of God's instructions. The ones you quote are a few. But Jesus didn't teach these were His only Commandments, only that the entire Law and Prophets "hang on" a couple of those you mentioned. How does a person Love God? Can we create our own "relationship" with Him. Or are we to study and "learn" what His Will is? How do we love others? Can we create our own Love? Or do we "live by" Every Word of God which defines how a man loves God and loves their neighbor.
Those who Jesus spoke about in Matt. 7, surely claimed to love the Christ. They surely claimed to love those they were ridding of devils. They gave Him the credit for everything they did "in His Name", But it seems they didn't follow the guidelines God "Before ordained that we should walk in them." Choosing instead to follow "Another" path which transgressed God's Commandments. I think the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time did the same thing.
For God so loved the world.
Did Jesus saves us because he had to or out of love?
So yes obedience, works, will follow but not to saved but because we love Jesus.
I know the teaching Billy. But the religions of the land do not "live by" the Word of God which became Flesh. They do many things in His Name as did those in Matt. 7, but they also "Practice lawlessness" as they did as well.
Do they "believe" they are the same as those in Matt. 7? Of course not. This is why Jesus said to "Come out of her" MY people. The "HER" are those who call Him Lord, Lord, but practice "lawlessness".
James 1:22-27
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.
Our works we do were set for us before we came to faith.
And in faith on Jesus and in Jesus we will walk the walk.
Not talk the talk but be doers.
I hope this clarifies what I was trying to convey.
And yet, as I have pointed out, "many" who claim to be converted, who claim to be saved, walk in blatant disregard for His Laws. They don't think so, they don't "Believe" so, but they do. How can we know if we are one who is deceived or not?
1 John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
John 14:
23 Jesus answered and said unto him,
If a man love me,
he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
The Bible says Jesus was the Word of God which became Flesh. That He was the one who created all things. that He was the one who commanded Abraham to leave his religion, and family and follow Him.
If this is true, then these are HIS Words as well.
Ex. 20:
2 I
am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
And again:
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Now those in Matt. 7 were not shown Mercy and the Christ said it was because they practiced "Lawlessness". Also, the Mainstream Preachers of His time were not shown His Mercy, and He said it was because.
Matt. 15:
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with
their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me,
teaching for doctrines the
commandments of men.
But Zechariahs, which God said:
Luke 1:
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Was not only shown Mercy, but also knew the Christ when He came. Something those Mainstream preachers of Christ's Time didn't know. This not only confirms the Promise of the Christ in Ex. 20, but also confirms His same promise in:
John 14:
21 He that hath my commandments,
and keepeth them,
he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him,
and will manifest myself to him.
It seems both Abraham and Zechariahs are living proof that the Word of God which became Flesh can be trusted to fulfill His Promises.
Also that those who don't "Live by" HIS Commandments, that God before ordained that we should walk in them, are not saved even though they have been convinced they have.
Since I have surrendered my life, not to a "church" or religion, but to the Christ of the Bible, it is easy for me to discern these things. But I remember when I partook of the religions of the land how difficult it was for me to really "Believe" in Him over the religious traditions of the land.
I appreciate the discussion and I hope I have explained the difference between how you see Matt. 7, as opposed to how I see Matt. 7.
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