Calvinism Critiqued

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Yes, Not everyone are sheep

Who are his sheep?

Those wh enter through him only. (Also called entering by the narrow gate, and not the wide)

God is not going to force people to enter in, He wants them to decide

Those who say yes. Amen

Those who say no, good bye.

I have no idea where this concept of coercion, force, dragging someone against their will, etc., came from, as we do not teach that. The lost don't need forced, coerced, drug against their will my friend. They need divine quickening, being born again.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”(John 3:3) Unless God divinely quickens them, the lost can not even see the kingdom of God, let alone find it.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."(John 3:5) Unless the lost are divinely quickened, born again, they can not 1) see the kingdom of God and 2) enter into the kingdom of God.

"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes."(John 5:21) Jesus divinely quickens those who He wishes to quicken and that does not include all mankind my friend. He came to die a covenant death for those whose sins He bore on a cross and atoned for.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Well you can spin it all you want (thats the way I see it anyway)

God chose you

He did not chose someone else

That makes you special since both of you deserved hell.

Imagine if a father had 2 kids. Both whom rebelled against him, both who wanted nothing to do with him, And both who rejected him.

The father had the ability to save them both because he loved them both. But he chose one over the other just because. So he pays the ones debt so he can get out of prison, but leave the other there with no hope of ever getting out. Everyone who hears this story is going to look at the father and say he respected the one child over the other. Because he chose one, and not the other. And not only this, he did not even give the one child a chance to get out He left him their to rot. His excuse, He deserved it anyway.

On the other hand, The father has the ability to save both, He pays the price for both. Yet only one child recieves his grace gift. The other rejects it. The father is vindicated. And no one ever again will doubt that fathers true love, Because he paid the penalty for both. The one ended up never getting out of prison, But that was his fault, not the fathers.

This is my issue with calvanism, or as some call it fatalism. It does not show the true love of God. And will not put to death the claims against him for eternity. It leaves the door wide open for another rebellion. Because he became a respector of persons.

Nowhere have I said I was special my friend. Why make such an outlandish and foolish claim such as this? God does not need to be vindicated my friend. Are you trying to get Him off the hook? Why? What did He do that he needs to be vindicated?

You say that Calvinism(not Calvanism my friend) does not show the true love of God? How so? Choosing to save a multitude of fallen peoples who hate Him to their very core is not love? If that is not love then what is?

Remember, not everybody is God's children my friend. We are either born of child of God or a child of the wicked one. Now, this is not the serpent seed doctrine, but we are either an elect child of God or a non-elect child of Satan. Jesus told the Pharisees they were of their father the devil(John 8:44). This deals with relationship, not the Kennite doctrine that is espoused by Shepherd's Chapel, that the late Arnold Murray pastored and taught the serpent had intercourse with Eve and Cain was their offspring and all the Kennites are born doomed by their relations. They never had relations, and Cain was not the devil's literal son, either.

And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”(Genesis 3:15)

The elect come from the seed of the woman, the non-elect from the seed of the serpent. God chose His peoples from all of fallen mankind, gave them to the Son, who lived the perfect life the Law demanded in their place, died the death that should have been theirs, was buried and rose again for their justification(Romans 4:25), went back to the Father and intercedes for them.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

The wicked go astray from the womb. <--Lost

Before I brought thee forth from your mother's womb I knew thee <--Jeremiah

Thank you for those two wonderful scriptures my friend. Now, may I ask you why you posted them? What are your thoughts concerning them? Thank you in advance my friend.

 

[preacher4truth]

Nowhere have I said I was special my friend. Why make such an outlandish and foolish claim such as this? God does not need to be vindicated my friend. Are you trying to get Him off the hook? Why? What did He do that he needs to be vindicated?

You say that Calvinism(not Calvanism my friend) does not show the true love of God? How so? Choosing to save a multitude of fallen peoples who hate Him to their very core is not love? If that is not love then what is?

Remember, not everybody is God's children my friend. We are either born of child of God or a child of the wicked one. Now, this is not the serpent seed doctrine, but we are either an elect child of God or a non-elect child of Satan. Jesus told the Pharisees they were of their father the devil(John 8:44). This deals with relationship, not the Kennite doctrine that is espoused by Shepherd's Chapel, that the late Arnold Murray pastored and taught the serpent had intercourse with Eve and Cain was their offspring and all the Kennites are born doomed by their relations. They never had relations, and Cain was not the devil's literal son, either.

And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”(Genesis 3:15)

The elect come from the seed of the woman, the non-elect from the seed of the serpent. God chose His peoples from all of fallen mankind, gave them to the Son, who lived the perfect life the Law demanded in their place, died the death that should have been theirs, was buried and rose again for their justification(Romans 4:25), went back to the Father and intercedes for them.

They're all bent on why hellions and God haters can't get into heaven too. "It's not fair! God has to be fair according to my logic!"

Seems the same ideology of leftism.

But the elephant in the room? The Gospel has been mitigated down to casting a vote, then you're in. "Easy as pie." I mean, that is what they preach, let's face it. Man does something via voting and is rewarded eternal life.

All they have to do is choose. It's like the note from the girl in Kindergarten "Do you like me? YES or NO (circle one)."

 

[Endoscopy]

When an Article is posted it is posted as FYI...........go see the News Forum and see the Articles posted there, just as here, they are FYI. Not my fault your reading comprehension skills are so weak.

This is not a news forum but a Bible forum. Therefore posting an article needs to be in conformance with the Bible unless specifically pointing out errors non Christians believe.

 

[Endoscopy]

Endoscopy: Examination of the inside of the body by using a lighted, flexible instrument called an endoscope. In general, an endoscope is introduced into the body through a natural opening such as the mouth or anus. Although endoscopy can include examination of other organs, the most common endoscopic procedures evaluate the esophagus, stomach, and portions of the intestine.

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I get this attack on the political forum I post on. I expected better on a Christian site. The reason I chose that name is because I try to view what is underneath the stated views of especially atheists. Then I supply scientific facts to them about the impossibility of old earth and big bang evolution violating 5 scientific laws. Also things found like a hammer embedded in coal. I get these from Christian Ministries International at creation.com and OOPARTS, Out of Place Artifacts at s8int.com, providing these details.

 

[Endoscopy]

Let's hold that thought.

According to what you have posted (which is biblical) every Israelite and every Jew should have been saved, based upon Calvinistic *election*. Instead the majority rejected (and still reject) Christ. WHICH IS PROOF POSITIVE THAT CALVINISM IS A FALSE GOSPEL.

This is in error. I have posted this before. The difference of opinion between Calvinism and Arminianism is known as the Quinquarticular Controversy. Both sides have sites backing up their view with lengthy discussions siting lots of scripture references, here is a canned response I keep backing my point. Calvinism Biblical Defense is known as the Canons of Dort. Here is the Biblical Defense of both plus more information about them. Refute the Biblical Defense of either one. Put up or shut up.

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Arminian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Arminianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Arminianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The sheep are the only ones who will enter in through that gate into the sheep pen my friend. No force necessary, just divine quickening is necessary.

Thats not what the bible says, It says to enter through Jesus, It also says enter the narrow Gate, not the wide gate. Thus proving a CHOICE is demanded. People must chose. To enter through Jesus (the narrow Gate) or try to enter through anything other than Jesus, the wide gate. No quickening is necessary.

Once a person enters, they are justified as the penalty of sin is removed

Once the penalty of sin is removed, the barrier between God and the person is removed

Once the barrier is removed, He or she who was dead in tresspasses and sins, are MADE ALIVE (quickened) in christ.

Once this is done, They are given the Holy Spirit as a seal of their eternal life

Its basic gospel 101 stuff.

 

[pottersclay]

Every one of us on this Earth was born for a purpose, that purpose is of God's design. Show me scripture that has purposed any one to be Kindle for a fire.
There is scripture that says they have become unfit but no scripture that says they were created just for Kindle.
Paul warns us all not to be high minded about our gift of salvation remembering we were just grafted in.
I cannot argue that God knows the end from the beginning. He does know the number of the redeemed and with this knowledge of knowing I humble myself to be counted as one of the numbered Lord have mercy.
The word of God has been tested and proven to Pierce the hardest of hearts. Nothing can separate us from his love. There is nothing to hard for him. This is the God that I serve and know.
The unjust will fall because they do not except. Not because they were not choosen.

In the book of Jonah who received the blessing? Was it the prophet sent or Nineveh?
You read John 3:16 seven times then call God a liar and continue with your doctrine of lies.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Mark 7:21-23 - “For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” (c.f. Matthew 15:19)

Looks like total depravity to me.
Total depravity is about how God sees us, not how we see ourselves

Total depravity means we can not do good.

It DOES NOT mean, we can not know we are evil and realise in humility we need saved, allowing God to show us the way and chosewhat needs to happen to save us...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nowhere have I said I was special my friend. Why make such an outlandish and foolish claim such as this? God does not need to be vindicated my friend. Are you trying to get Him off the hook? Why? What did He do that he needs to be vindicated?

You may not say it, That does not make it true

Satan made a lie about God. The whole message of the gospel of the cross is to prove satan a liar and a theif.

And God DOES care what people and the angels think, all we have to do is read the word and we can see that.

God can not demand we love as he loved, and not love himself.

The first example I gave does not prove that fathers love, because he for no reason whatsoever allowed a child of his to rot in jail.. without even giving them a chance. Which if one looks at it, Buys into satans lie.

You say that Calvinism(not Calvanism my friend) does not show the true love of God? How so? Choosing to save a multitude of fallen peoples who hate Him to their very core is not love? If that is not love then what is?

Love would chose to try to save ALL OF THEM, not just SOME OF THEM, Love would set aside your own needs and rights to make sure everyone has a chance, Love sacrifices all, for the sake of all. And then leave the decision to the people you love. And if they say no, Its on them You did all you could. Like aby father would do for ANY of their children (if they did not. What kind of father are they?)

Love does not allow only a selct group of people. While rejecting everyone else without giving them a chance.

So yes, It does not show true love .

Remember, not everybody is God's children my friend. We are either born of child of God or a child of the wicked one. Now, this is not the serpent seed doctrine, but we are either an elect child of God or a non-elect child of Satan. Jesus told the Pharisees they were of their father the devil(John 8:44). This deals with relationship, not the Kennite doctrine that is espoused by Shepherd's Chapel, that the late Arnold Murray pastored and taught the serpent had intercourse with Eve and Cain was their offspring and all the Kennites are born doomed by their relations. They never had relations, and Cain was not the devil's literal son, either.

And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”(Genesis 3:15)

The elect come from the seed of the woman, the non-elect from the seed of the serpent. God chose His peoples from all of fallen mankind, gave them to the Son, who lived the perfect life the Law demanded in their place, died the death that should have been theirs, was buried and rose again for their justification(Romans 4:25), went back to the Father and intercedes for them.

God created us all, thus in reality we are all his offspring,, But we rebelled and because of our rebellion we are cut off and a barrier is placed between us.

True love pays the price to remove this barrier, and then offers that offering of love to each and every one of those he created. Allowing them to make a choice (without choice, there can be no love)

And this is what God did

He paid the price’’then told his offrpring (all of them) Believe in me, EEnter through me and me only, Enter through the narrow gate, and I will remove the barrier and give you life (eternal life)

Chose not to do these things, then suffer the fate you deserved in the first place. But my love stands for all eternity, Because I offered you the same gift I offered everyone else.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am not spinning it any way I want. From Ephesians 1:4...

ἐκλέγομαι (eklegomai)

to pick out; in NT to choose, select, Lk. 6:13; 10:42; in NT to choose out as the recipients of special favor and privilege, Acts 13:17; 1 Cor. 1:27

God chose us from before the creation of the world...

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.

Look at all the personal pronouns. Everyone who has been predestined has been predestined in accordance to His will.

The problem with your view, my friend, is you think the lost are looking for a way in to God’s kingdom, and all they need is a chance. That is not true at all. Lost man hates God, wants nothing to do with Him in His fallen state. They are at enmity...have an ill will towards God in their fallen state.

5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.(Romans 8)

The lost are in the flesh and can not please God.

Yes lets look at it

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

First, what Is Gods will?

That all who SEE and BELIEVE will have ETERNAL LIFE, be MADE ALIVE, Given Gods PROMISE he woudl RAISE ThEM, and assurance they will NEVER DIE

We see this in this passage, You did not go far enough.

You forgot vs 13 - 14

After hearing the word (seeing) you believed (choice) and after this you were saved (born again) and as a pledge, God gives you the Holy Spirit as a seal.

In this way, All of eph 1 was fullfilled.. This is WHY God chose us.. and this is why we recieve ALL that God has given to us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not every is a child of God my friend. The Philistines, Egyptians, Jebusites, Hittites, Hivites, Syrians, Assyrians, et al, we’re not God’s children.

Yet many egyptans left with Moses, All through the OT, God chose many people from gentile nations to be his people. king davids grandmother was a gentile.

The people of canaan WERE gods people. God told abraham, Your family will not enter for 400 years. Because their SIN has not yet been completed.

What sin was he talking about? THE SIN OF UNBELIEF! (They arived toa state when nothing God did would cause them to repent. They were lost in pride and unbelief.)

God sent Jonah to a gentile city, HATED by the jews because of what they did, why? BECAUSE THEY WERE GODS PEOPLE And what happened? THEY CHOSE TO REPENT and were saved)

Sorry my friend. This does not support you case.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

there is a plethora of Historical Records to show that Calvin signed the Death Warrants of at least 58 people..........you don't even know the definition of your Screen Name, and you want to instruct others in Historical Truths? Seriously?

How many people did David kill? How about Saul of Tarsus? How about many other people who were led to Christ and done many great and wonderful deads in Gods name.

I know you have me on ignore. I am saying this for other people. Praying that they see what you evidenlty do not fail to see. Attacking a man to prove your point does not work. Because you woudl have to attackMANY other chosen men of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"chose us in Him before the foundation of the world........Eph 1:4 and Eph 1:11.......we have OBTAINED (past tense) an inheritance, haveing been PREDESTINED according to His purpose, who works all things after HIS WILL. (salvation to His elect predestined from the beginning. The PRO ORIZO of time.

I assume you have a bible and are a little Berean.....check it out, it IS IN context.
In those verses Mark is saying these things come out of the hearts of men, it is their natural state. Indeed the full effect Mark gives is llisted in verses 20-23 of Mark 7.

And how were we chosen?

By the will of God

1. By foreknowledge (he knew us before the womb, from our first day until our loast day, he knoew us and ALL we woudl do intimately)
2. By his will (whoever sees and believed) how do we see? By the word)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He foreknew them by electing them, not by knowing solely their decision my friend. This is the foreseen faith teaching that has been rejected by most people.

Foreknew is a verb, meaning God was active in foreknowing them. You are conflating His omniscience with His divine foreknowledge. He knows everyone and everything via creation, but He foreknows those He elected from BEFORE the creation of the world.

Rejected by most people?

The gospel is rejected by most people. You need to do more than this my friend.

 

[John146]

And how were we chosen?

By the will of God

1. By foreknowledge (he knew us before the womb, from our first day until our loast day, he knoew us and ALL we woudl do intimately)
2. By his will (whoever sees and believed) how do we see? By the word)

Can you prove #1 using Scripture?

 

[PennEd]

Thats not what the bible says, It says to enter through Jesus, It also says enter the narrow Gate, not the wide gate. Thus proving a CHOICE is demanded. People must chose. To enter through Jesus (the narrow Gate) or try to enter through anything other than Jesus, the wide gate. No quickening is necessary.

Once a person enters, they are justified as the penalty of sin is removed

Once the penalty of sin is removed, the barrier between God and the person is removed

Once the barrier is removed, He or she who was dead in tresspasses and sins, are MADE ALIVE (quickened) in christ.

Once this is done, They are given the Holy Spirit as a seal of their eternal life

Its basic gospel 101 stuff.

Hi EG. I'm not sure how you arrived at the point that you don't think God is the one who makes the dead, which we were, alive. The KJV renders this performance by God as "quickening".

Romans 4
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be [d]sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed GOD, WHO GIVES LIFE TO THE DEAD and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

John 5:21
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Ephesians
Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


A dead person cannot DO anything but be dead. This is why it HAS to be God ALONE that "quickens" us, or gives us a life through a new birth.

We didn't have ANYTHING to do with our physical conception and birth, so why would we think we would have ANYTHING to do with our Spiritual conception and birth?

 

[Hevosmies]

Can you prove #1 using Scripture?

Wait... You DONT believe God knew us from the womb? He says this to Jeremiah, you know that right?

God is the Alpha and Omega. Knows the beginning and the end? Does whatsoever He pleases?

 

[John146]

Wait... You DONT believe God knew us from the womb? He says this to Jeremiah, you know that right?

God is the Alpha and Omega. Knows the beginning and the end? Does whatsoever He pleases?

From the womb, not before the womb. That is my point. Read it again.