Is Universalsim in Opposition to the Bible?
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I'm not defending Universalism.
Universalism is nothing for me to deal with.
I have more problems with you than with Universalism.
Universalism welcomes me with open arms.
You don't even think I am a Christian.
See the difference?
Your signature line says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus..."
I wish you believed that.
Universalism is nothing for me to deal with.
I have more problems with you than with Universalism.
Universalism welcomes me with open arms.
You don't even think I am a Christian.
See the difference?
Your signature line says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus..."
I wish you believed that.
I've lost count of how many times I have been falsely accused of that on this thread.
I would never counsel anyone to come to God any other way than through Jesus Christ.
That is the way to God. Currently there is no other way for us to reach God.
On the other hand, I believe God has the option to reach out to anyone that he wants to and have a
relationship with them as he did with the patriarchs and countless others in the past before Christ.
This is not Universalism. This is the faith of Abraham, who believed God and was counted righteous.
Abraham was not a Christian. Yet he is the father of faith. Not Moses.
I would never counsel anyone to come to God any other way than through Jesus Christ.
That is the way to God. Currently there is no other way for us to reach God.
On the other hand, I believe God has the option to reach out to anyone that he wants to and have a
relationship with them as he did with the patriarchs and countless others in the past before Christ.
This is not Universalism. This is the faith of Abraham, who believed God and was counted righteous.
Abraham was not a Christian. Yet he is the father of faith. Not Moses.
Yeah,, God blocked them After they attained the knowledge of good and evil so that they would then start to grow old and die.. God did not want them living forever after they had attained the knowledge of good and evil.. So He kicked them out of the Garden of Eden so they lost access to the tree of life.. Before they attained the knowledge of good and evil they had eternal life.. That's why God told them that after they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they would die... Before they did that they would never die... Because they had access to the tree of life...
Well to be saved you must be in a state of being unsaved or needing to be saved and there must be a reason why one needs saving... So the attaining of the knowledge of good and evil was the moment humans started to need saving..
If they accept Jesus as their Redeemer and they trust in the Atonement He secured for their salvation they will be saved..
So ?
If they accept Jesus as their Redeemer and they trust in the Atonement He secured for their salvation they will be saved..
So ?
Yes i was repeatedly praying for wisdom and understanding from God when i first read the Bible.. I was way out of my depth.. It is very hard to understand the style of the Bible especially the older KJV translation.. I could never have the knowledge i have now without the Holy Spirit causing me to understand things.
Yes God foreknew before the foundation of the world ( before creation ) who would be saved and who would not.. So no disagreement here on that point.. Actually i am not sure why you are even bringing this point up?? Except to say that this does away with the false doctrine of universalism.. If God foreknows who will be saved and who will be damned among us then obviously some are not going to be saved.. Therefore universalism is a false doctrine..
Yes God foreknew before the foundation of the world ( before creation ) who would be saved and who would not.. So no disagreement here on that point.. Actually i am not sure why you are even bringing this point up?? Except to say that this does away with the false doctrine of universalism.. If God foreknows who will be saved and who will be damned among us then obviously some are not going to be saved.. Therefore universalism is a false doctrine..
The phrase "take also" indicates to me that they had not yet eaten from the Tree of Life.
And my understanding is that the death they died that day was spiritual, not physical.
There are two kinds of life and two kinds of death.
- Physical life and death (we are mortal physically)
- Spiritual life and death (we are eternal spiritually)
Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
And my understanding is that the death they died that day was spiritual, not physical.
There are two kinds of life and two kinds of death.
- Physical life and death (we are mortal physically)
- Spiritual life and death (we are eternal spiritually)
Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
Sketch wrote:
"Do we expect to find Adam and Eve in heaven? On what basis?
Both Abel and Enoch appear in the Faith chapter (Heb.11)"
Abel and Enoch lived in the same time frame as Adam and Eve.
Neither were Christians, both had a relationship with God.
No indication that they knew anything about Christ.
Yet Enoch we are told was apparently taken directly from this life to be with God.
He walked with God and was no more. Elijah too was taken in a similar way.
"Do we expect to find Adam and Eve in heaven? On what basis?
Both Abel and Enoch appear in the Faith chapter (Heb.11)"
Abel and Enoch lived in the same time frame as Adam and Eve.
Neither were Christians, both had a relationship with God.
No indication that they knew anything about Christ.
Yet Enoch we are told was apparently taken directly from this life to be with God.
He walked with God and was no more. Elijah too was taken in a similar way.
Well you seem to interpret English differently to me.. I also use context of the other verses in genesis.. They only faced death After God forbade them access to the tree of life... If Adam and Eve where eternal before attaining the knowledge of good and evil and they did not need to eat of the tree of life to have this eternal life then whats the point of having a tree of life in the garden?
Focusing in on the wording of verses in isolation of other verses around it and the overall context of the story is not the way to handle scriptures..
I have only been talking about physical death up to this time.. But you can see that both physical death and spiritual death where both triggered by the fall in Adam and Eve..
Focusing in on the wording of verses in isolation of other verses around it and the overall context of the story is not the way to handle scriptures..
I have only been talking about physical death up to this time.. But you can see that both physical death and spiritual death where both triggered by the fall in Adam and Eve..
Well Enoch and Abel would have heard the preaching of Jesus when Jesus went to hell to preach to the spirits that where their since the times of Noah.. Remember i posted that scripture to you way back in this conversation.. So why do you bring up Abel and Enoch now when that scripture covers them..
And it does not matter if they died or where taken.. They still have to respond to the Message of Jesus and trust in the atonement He secured for their salvation..
And it does not matter if they died or where taken.. They still have to respond to the Message of Jesus and trust in the atonement He secured for their salvation..
This is a gray area. There is room for different understandings of this.
It is not a black and white salvation issue to believe either way.
God said that in the day they ate thereof they would surely die. And I believe they surely did die in that day.
Since that death was not physical, it had to be spiritual. That's my understanding. Which I don't blame God for.
It is not a black and white salvation issue to believe either way.
God said that in the day they ate thereof they would surely die. And I believe they surely did die in that day.
Since that death was not physical, it had to be spiritual. That's my understanding. Which I don't blame God for.
Yes, I am fully aware that Jesus preached to the spirits in Hades. (the realm of the dead)
That means that their decision to receive Christ was made after death.
And it seems that Enoch did not go to Hades, but directly to heaven. Same with Elijah. Or was that Elisha?
So, from your perspective, how many "ways" is that?
If any one of them happened once, who is to say it can't happen again?
Do you believe that a person needs to receive Christ before they die to secure their salvation? (the only way)
Was that always the case? (nope) Could it happen again? (seems so) God could make it so.
Romans 2:14-16
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
That means that their decision to receive Christ was made after death.
And it seems that Enoch did not go to Hades, but directly to heaven. Same with Elijah. Or was that Elisha?
So, from your perspective, how many "ways" is that?
If any one of them happened once, who is to say it can't happen again?
Do you believe that a person needs to receive Christ before they die to secure their salvation? (the only way)
Was that always the case? (nope) Could it happen again? (seems so) God could make it so.
Romans 2:14-16
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
They died within a day but it was not an earth 24 hours day.. Adam lived only 930 earth years..
Genesis 5: KJV
5 "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
What is a day to the LORD ?
2 Peter 3: KJV {8} But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."
So Adam did die physically on the same Day he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.. The same God Day..
Genesis 5: KJV
5 "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
What is a day to the LORD ?
2 Peter 3: KJV {8} But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."
So Adam did die physically on the same Day he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.. The same God Day..
"I love it when people credit God for their faulty doctrine. " - Sketch
That was sarcasm. Get a sense of humor.
What sort of judgment is it to say such a thing about my spirit?
As if not agreeing with you means I am what... possessed by a demon?
Get over yourself.
Shouldn't you be more concerned with your doctrine than with pointing fingers?
That was sarcasm. Get a sense of humor.
What sort of judgment is it to say such a thing about my spirit?
As if not agreeing with you means I am what... possessed by a demon?
Get over yourself.
Shouldn't you be more concerned with your doctrine than with pointing fingers?
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