Calvinism Critiqued
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Yes I'm aware he made the OP quoting others after he scoured the web looking for vitriol. My point was to rebut his subjectivity by being objective. Of course he's fully responsible for the OP.
It amazes me professing believers hate God's truths such as predestination and election as witnessed there in the OP yet not one would be saved without his plan!
NayborBear
Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
DISREGARD THE MESSAGE!! KILL THE MESSENGER!! Man oh man oh man! Let me think for a moment here. Just where have I heard THAT before?
And, oh how so adamant they were in their being right also! To the point of bribing a disciple! Bringing their "political leverage" to bear, on poor old Pilate, who actually couldn't find ANY "wrong doing!" Could you imagine any Christian today, going into a "house of God", making righteously indignant claims? Or, has behavior in defending the faith, been turned so "tospy tervy", in "Lake PLACCID", that it upsets the sheep, to the point that they'll no longer "cha-ching" in your offering plates? GOD FORBID, such a thing happen! (hint) Sheep are only "beneficial", as LONG as they STAY sheeps! Churchianity has de-evolved to the point, that the sheeps, are no more then mushrooms. To which Pastors and Preachers, (for the most part), are only TOO HAPPY, in keeping them in the dark (cuz they themselves are in the dark), and feeding their mushrooms SHIT! In "love", of course! But, shit, no matter HOW it's delivered? Is STILL SHIT! Let's just concentrate keeping the FOCUS, on LOVE! The rest of the "fruit of the Spirit?" Aww! Who needs 'em! LOVE will cover ALL these "shortcomings!" BULL SHIT!!!
Unfortunately? For some? Here is where God starts holding back on His "faithfulness" towards His children! Please, DON'T be like that! This is why people become so disconcerted, wondering why "bad things", happen to seemingly "good" people! Calvin knew this! He also knew that what his inner man's soul, heart, mind, and spirit was in such desperate need of? Wasn't being taught in the Churches!
I cannot say, I condone burning people at the stake! On the other hand? I don't think Calvin "torched 'em" indiscriminately either! Of course, Catholics never torched people either, did they? Neither did the Puritans! DID THEY?
Calvin OBVIOUSLY believed in Christ! Yet, what Calvin was (for lack of a better word) postulating? Was the Journeying's UNTO the Father! SPIRITUALLY! While his (for lack of a better term, again) carcass was AT THE CROSS!
I have to tell ya? It frustrates me to NO END, that after 2,000 years? Many people STILL don't "get it!"
Doncha "hear" Him callin' ya, p_rehbein? I know yer a believer! Yet, I'm not talkin' about Jesus! I'm talkin' about our Heavenly Father! "Are ya ready yet?" Not talkin' about diein' either! Talkin' about enterin' the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light!
I beg to differ friend. God foreknows ALL. ALL means ALL, and that means everyone. He foreknew from the beginning who would and who would not choose to love Him and to give their lives to Him. Not because He forced them to, but because they came to believe in Him and chose to. Those that did this, He predestined, meaning He provided the Holy Spirit to them to assure that they would be equipped to deal with whatever tribulations would arise in their lives, and remain faithful to Him.
He gave them the gifts needed to accomplish the purpose He purposed them for from the beginning. Foreknowing is far more powerful than predestination in my opinion my friend.
You give yourself far too much credit my friend. I do not hate you or any other living being. There is no need to hate............disagree with you? Sure. Completely.
And, not because you believe in predestination, but because you choose to identify yourself as a disciple of John Calvin. John Calvin was surely one who hated.............
Scripture tells me we are to identify ourselves as disciples of Jesus Christ. So, why choose a man? You know, it's perfectly ok to be a disciple of Christ, a Christian who believes in predestination without identifying yourself as a disciple of Calvin, right?
As for Threads in the past few weeks, you either are ignoring what has been going on, or are simply denying what has been going on. Many here are well aware of the influx of Calvin's disciples we have had over those few weeks, and months, and the Threads, Comments they have been posting.
You give yourself far too much credit. I do not hate you, I feel sorry for you.
DISREGARD THE MESSAGE!! KILL THE MESSENGER!! Man oh man oh man! Let me think for a moment here. Just where have I heard THAT before?
(hint) Sheep are only "beneficial", as LONG as they STAY sheeps! Churchianity has de-evolved to the point, that the sheeps, are no more then mushrooms. To which Pastors and Preachers, (for the most part), are only TOO HAPPY, in keeping them in the dark (cuz they themselves are in the dark), and feeding their mushrooms SHIT! In "love", of course! But, shit, no matter HOW it's delivered? Is STILL SHIT! Let's just concentrate keeping the FOCUS, on LOVE! The rest of the "fruit of the Spirit?" Aww! Who needs 'em! LOVE will cover ALL these "shortcomings!" BULL SHIT!!!
Calvin knew this! He also knew that what his inner man's soul, heart, mind, and spirit was in such desperate need of? Wasn't being taught in the Churches!
I cannot say, I condone burning people at the stake! On the other hand? I don't think Calvin "torched 'em" indiscriminately either! Of course, Catholics never torched people either, did they? Neither did the Puritans! DID THEY?
Calvin OBVIOUSLY believed in Christ! Yet, what Calvin was (for lack of a better word) postulating? Was the Journeying's UNTO the Father! SPIRITUALLY! While his (for lack of a better term, again) carcass was AT THE CROSS!
I have to tell ya? It frustrates me to NO END, that after 2,000 years? Many people STILL don't "get it!"
Doncha "hear" Him callin' ya, p_rehbein? I know yer a believer! Yet, I'm not talkin' about Jesus! I'm talkin' about our Heavenly Father! "Are ya ready yet?" Not talkin' about diein' either! Talkin' about enterin' the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light!
Naylor, as much as it might pain you, and others here, one does NOT have to subscribe to the theological beliefs you have to be a Child of God. I have for many years had the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit to assure me, to guide me, to direct me, to comfort me and to witness that I am a Child of God. No creed required, nor following the teachings of some man required.
When the Gospel of Christ becomes NOT ENOUGH for folks, and they start searching for some man to be a disciple of, and identify with, well............it is they you should direct your concern towards Brother.
John Calvin may not have physically touched anyone, nor did I say he did. I said he ordered their deaths. Signed their Death Warrants. And, as you are speaking of spiritual things, did not Christ Himself tell us that if we thought such things in our hearts..........we were GUILTY of murder?
Seriously..............become a disciple of Jesus Christ..........and you can be a Christian who believes in predestination. Nothing wrong with that. It is your God given right to. It's called free will.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Nope. Because not everyone has done the will of God.
What is Gods will?
That whoever sees and believes has eternal life. (John 6)
God witnessed these events before time began. God is outside of time, sadly to many people think in human terms and miss the message.
That is predestination.That's not predestination, that is foreknowing.............funny how folks keep forgetting that part
You do not believe BECAUSE you are not my sheep.
You are not my sheep because you dont believe.
First one is bible
Easy believism means they dont believe in a changed life after salvation. No repentance. Just "believe" in your mind and you are saved eternally, even if you become an atheist the next day. Sanctification is not required in any sense, no turning from sin, you dont even need to feel bad about it.
Thats the easy-believism.
How did we get to this point? It started off with the doctrine of Perseverance of the saints. Meaning, people ARE saved eternally, and kept by God, BUT all those who believed in this ALSO believed that repentance and faith are fruits of being born again. Not just a mere profession of faith.
This is all good. But then came along the easy-believism split where its just a mental assent to a list of doctrines and facts. "Yup im now saved"
Sure sounds like what I hear from some of the disciples of Calvin............
Seems to me, could be wrong, but Calvin's teachings came before OSAS
Calvin's predestination teachings assure his disciples that they are chosen by God from the beginning to receive eternal life with Him. Where in that is there need for regret for living a sin-filled life in disobedience to God, conviction by the Holy Spirit leading to repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ (God the Son) as Lord and Savior, and having ones sins cleansed by His precious blood? IF, from the beginning, they have been predestined to eternal life, how could it possibly matter how they live their lives?
Still, no one has explained to me why they feel the need to identify themselves as the disciple of a man, rather than as a disciple of Christ. Why identify one's self as a Calvinist, rather than as a Christian? You know it's ok to call yourself a disciple of Christ and believe in predestination, right?
Now, I may disagree with your interpretation of Scripture, but you have the God given right to read Scripture and decide for yourselves. It's called Free Will.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
That is caalled licentiousness in Jude.
It is a term being used against all grace believers sadly, even those who are not licentious.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
This man knows nothing about calvinist teaching. And he just proved it with this paragraph.Sure sounds like what I hear from some of the disciples of Calvin............
Seems to me, could be wrong, but Calvin's teachings came before OSAS
Calvin's predestination teachings assure his disciples that they are chosen by God from the beginning to receive eternal life with Him. Where in that is there need for regret for living a sin-filled life in disobedience to God, conviction by the Holy Spirit leading to repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ (God the Son) as Lord and Savior, and having ones sins cleansed by His precious blood? IF, from the beginning, they have been predestined to eternal life, how could it possibly matter how they live their lives?
Still, no one has explained to me why they feel the need to identify themselves as the disciple of a man, rather than as a disciple of Christ. Why identify one's self as a Calvinist, rather than as a Christian? You know it's ok to call yourself a disciple of Christ and believe in predestination, right?
Now, I may disagree with your interpretation of Scripture, but you have the God given right to read Scripture and decide for yourselves. It's called Free Will.
Yet once again, He has either been taught things, Or made up in his mind certain things which are not true. And is unable to resolve these issues..
Foreknowing ALWAYS precedes predestination.........
And, as for the second sentence, I think the Apostle Paul would disagree with you.
THIS:
Romans 10
8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
And Christ Himself would disagree as well:
Matthew 28
18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
And, again the Apostle would disagree with you.........
1 Timothy 2
1) I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Not much about predestination there is there? Seems to me God wants all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth. Seems to me Christ shed His precious blood on Calvary's cross as a ransom for all!
Still, IF you choose to believe in predestination, that is your God given right through Free Will.
Gotta love those who ignorantly say that John Calvin's teaching came before OSAS.....
Of course when one throws Jesus under the bus, throws the power and promises of JESUS under the bus and in favor holds to a man made religion started by men in the 1800's......what can one expect, but I must remain obedient to keep my salvation because JESUS has no ability to keep me saved............
Brother Penn,
Glad to see you online........because I have a thought to tell you.........It's not Biblical Truth, or any such, it's just a thought........ (saying that will not deter others, but.....)
Remember when we were discussing free will? You made a comment that has stuck with me, and that was that you were glad you did not have free will because you would always choose the flesh........paraphrased by me. Do you remember that?
Well, me being me...........I got to thinking.......given all the discourse between predestination and free will, surely God had a plan to address both, after all, He is God.
What if? and I restate----just a thought, what if God predestined those He FOREKNEW would given in to the desires of the flesh, and gave free will to those He FOREKNEW would resist the desires of the flesh and choose to serve Him? I know. It may not makes sense...........but, then, this whole battle royal betwixt the two does not make sense either.........
Now, even though I had that thought..............and it was simply a thought in passing...........I STILL BELIEVE in the God given gift of free will, and that He has given it to all men...........
anyway...........just talking with you
Glad to see you online........because I have a thought to tell you.........It's not Biblical Truth, or any such, it's just a thought........ (saying that will not deter others, but.....)
Remember when we were discussing free will? You made a comment that has stuck with me, and that was that you were glad you did not have free will because you would always choose the flesh........paraphrased by me. Do you remember that?
Well, me being me...........I got to thinking.......given all the discourse between predestination and free will, surely God had a plan to address both, after all, He is God.
What if? and I restate----just a thought, what if God predestined those He FOREKNEW would given in to the desires of the flesh, and gave free will to those He FOREKNEW would resist the desires of the flesh and choose to serve Him? I know. It may not makes sense...........but, then, this whole battle royal betwixt the two does not make sense either.........
Now, even though I had that thought..............and it was simply a thought in passing...........I STILL BELIEVE in the God given gift of free will, and that He has given it to all men...........
anyway...........just talking with you
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Eternal life is a forign word.
Call it OSAS, or eternal security or any religious term you want. Eternal life is eternal life. And asJohn said, I have it. That is my hope. And what my Faith is based on.
If I have no hope. I have no faith
Hope in my ability to remain obedient is no hope at all. it is faith in self. And ones own ability.
God will allow them to boast all they wish, But sadly, there will come a day when their boasting will fail. And they will be brought to justice. Because they rejected the redemption which can only come through christ.
It is not a calvin vs arminius Issue, it is not a grace vs works issue, it is a issue of biblical truth..
I agree there is an element of hardcore calvinists, that seem to be more enamored with John Calvin than Jesus Christ. My son has encountered a group of these individuals at Messiah College. They have no interest in spreading the Gospel, and search out only those they think are the elect, and could a less about anybody else.
But aside from FGC, whom PFT rebuked, I haven't really seen anybody espousing that stuff. Maybe there are more and I just didn't notice.
However, I don't think it's instructful to degrade the ideas of someone based solely on their walk. Martin Luther is a good example. He did a masterful job striving for the doctrine of Salvation by Grace through faith. He literally changed the world, and brought the Word to the masses. Yet he was a virulent anti-semite.
So Calvin may have done some bad things, but that by itself shouldn't negate his thoughts on issues like Eternal Security, or Predestination, and some of his other tenets.
This is pretty darn close to what I think. I believe it is a semantical issue from our point of view. I wrote this in some other thread but I'll posit this again.Brother Penn,
Glad to see you online........because I have a thought to tell you.........It's not Biblical Truth, or any such, it's just a thought........ (saying that will not deter others, but.....)
Remember when we were discussing free will? You made a comment that has stuck with me, and that was that you were glad you did not have free will because you would always choose the flesh........paraphrased by me. Do you remember that?
Well, me being me...........I got to thinking.......given all the discourse between predestination and free will, surely God had a plan to address both, after all, He is God.
What if? and I restate----just a thought, what if God predestined those He FOREKNEW would given in to the desires of the flesh, and gave free will to those He FOREKNEW would resist the desires of the flesh and choose to serve Him? I know. It may not makes sense...........but, then, this whole battle royal betwixt the two does not make sense either.........
Now, even though I had that thought..............and it was simply a thought in passing...........I STILL BELIEVE in the God given gift of free will, and that He has given it to all men...........
anyway...........just talking with you
1. I think we'd all agree that God knitted the eventual saved and eventual unsaved alike in the womb.
2. And I further think we all believe God knows the end from the beginning. So He knows who will become His Child and who will not.
So with those 2 facts together, we can say that God was knitting in the womb those who were DESTINED to destruction, (AS He was creating them He knew they would be destroyed) and those who were DESTINED to inherit eternal life, all the while KNOWING which were which!
Unless you don't believe in #1 or #2, how could it be that we are ALL not predestined?
NONE of this absolves US from loving EVERYONE and spreading the Gospel to ALL.
Which is WHY I keep saying that people who believe in predestination should identify themselves as disciples of Christ, not Calvin. They then would be Christians who believe in predestination......like you!
In my opinion, when people seek to be a disciple of a man, they are elevating the man over the Lord. Some tried to do this with the Apostle Paul, and he would have none of it. Why celebrate the man when one can celebrate the Lord? And, on this or the other Thread, don't remember which, I said that God can use bad people to accomplish good things............ But, WHY be a disciple of Calvin when one can be a disciple of Jesus Christ? Makes no sense to me............
God bless you and yours