Is God that cruel?
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That makes God sound like a pool player making shots as he pleases. And we are the balls.
Or/
Or/
Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points
Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints
Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace
For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,
https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html
Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages
There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.
Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate
Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm
Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/
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There is a TON of Scripture to support predestination. Several places flat out say the saved are predestined. So I don't know where you get your "obviously contradictory to Scripture" mantra.
I can pull out the Scripture if you like, but let me try another approach.
1. I think we'd all agree that God knitted the the eventual saved and eventual unsaved alike in the womb.
2. And I further think we all believe God knows the end from the beginning. So He knows who will become His Child and who will not.
So with those 2 facts together, we can say that God was knitting in the womb those who were DESTINED to destruction, (AS He was creating them He knew they would be destroyed) and those who were DESTINED to inherit eternal life, all the while KNOWING which were which!
Unless you don't believe in #1 or #2, how could it be that we are ALL not predestined?
NONE of this absolves US from loving EVERYONE and spreading the Gospel to ALL.
I can pull out the Scripture if you like, but let me try another approach.
1. I think we'd all agree that God knitted the the eventual saved and eventual unsaved alike in the womb.
2. And I further think we all believe God knows the end from the beginning. So He knows who will become His Child and who will not.
So with those 2 facts together, we can say that God was knitting in the womb those who were DESTINED to destruction, (AS He was creating them He knew they would be destroyed) and those who were DESTINED to inherit eternal life, all the while KNOWING which were which!
Unless you don't believe in #1 or #2, how could it be that we are ALL not predestined?
NONE of this absolves US from loving EVERYONE and spreading the Gospel to ALL.
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That makes God sound like a pool player making shots as he pleases. And we are the balls.
Or/
Or/
. Or another kind of parable as a analogy like below. (grasshoppers.)
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and stretcheth as a tent to dwell in:
We are God's design and not that of our own selves. He designed mankind to worship him as their free will.. which they lost by doing the good pleasure of the will of the god of this world .You could say as he, the father of lies worked in mankind to both will and do his good pleasure . We are simply bought back as he does work in us to both will and perform his good pleasure (a imputed righteousness)
Doing the will of the father is reckoned as our spiritual food .The kind of food the disciples at first knew not of at first.
The kind of food as the gospel that drives out demons. This is as he does work in us to both will and do His good pleasure (Philippians 2:12) and then reveals not to grumble seeing he calls the pool/billiard shots .
Those who do grumble do so in false pride.
After all he is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul pleases. No man can turn him .Seeing he performs the things appointed to us as he works in us to make our hearts soft .
But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.For he performeth the thing that is "appointed for me": and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him.
For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:Job 23:13-16
The problem you have is there are the creeds that define what a Christian must believe. Outside of them the early elders that created them looked at the many Biblical issues outside of them and stated it should be agree to disagree. The totally opposed views of Calvinism and Arminianism is a very good example.
Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points
Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints
Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace
For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,
https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html
Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages
There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.
Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate
Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm
Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/
Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points
Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints
Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace
For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,
https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html
Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages
There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.
Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate
Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm
Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/
Try again!! Here is God saying it. So now you know God stated he knew the end from the begining. Why do you try to detract from the awesome power and foreknowledge of God?
Isaiah 46 NIV
8. “Remember this, keep it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels.
9. Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
10. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’
11. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do.
Isaiah 46 NIV
8. “Remember this, keep it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels.
9. Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
10. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’
11. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do.
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God condemns nations in the past with eclipses crossing them. That nation diminishes greatly. Think about the foreknowledge and power of God causing the moon to have such a unique orbit to make those condemnations. The US had an eclipse cross straight across the continental US. In 2024 an eclipse will go from northeast to southwest crossing 7 cities named Salem. Think about the awesome power and foreknowledge of God to have set the moon in orbit for that one in 2024.
Addendum caused by the 5 minute rule.
Those 2 eclipses draw an X on the US. This country was founded from Christian colonies creating the US with Christian states. We now have turned our back on God. Gary North wrote "Crossed Fingers" documenting the secular takeover of Presbyterian USA in 1932. That's when the last Christian minister in control of a pot of money was defrocked to get access to the mission fund. He stated all of the other 6 major protestant protestant denominations were secular as well. Today only indendant churches and sub denominations still preach the gospel. The Presbyterian PCA has a built in prevention mechanism. The deacons control the money not the pastor.
Those 2 eclipses draw an X on the US. This country was founded from Christian colonies creating the US with Christian states. We now have turned our back on God. Gary North wrote "Crossed Fingers" documenting the secular takeover of Presbyterian USA in 1932. That's when the last Christian minister in control of a pot of money was defrocked to get access to the mission fund. He stated all of the other 6 major protestant protestant denominations were secular as well. Today only indendant churches and sub denominations still preach the gospel. The Presbyterian PCA has a built in prevention mechanism. The deacons control the money not the pastor.
The Heritage Foundation
Did America Have a Christian Founding?
.....Conclusions
So did America have a Christian Founding? History is complicated, and we should always be suspicious of simple answers to difficult questions. As we have seen, there is precious little evidence that the Founders were deists, wanted religion excluded from the public square, or desired the strict separation of church and state. On the other hand, they identified themselves as Christians, were influenced in important ways by Christian ideas, and generally thought it appropriate for civic authorities to encourage Christianity.
What do these facts mean for Americans who embrace non-Christian faiths or no faith at all? Although the Founders were profoundly influenced by Christianity, they did not design a constitutional order only for fellow believers. They explicitly prohibited religious tests for federal offices, and they were committed to the proposition that all men and women should be free to worship God (or not) as their consciences dictate.
As evidenced by George Washington’s 1790 letter to a “Hebrew Congregation” in Newport, Rhode Island, the new nation was to be open to a wide array of individuals who were willing to assume the responsibilities of citizenship:
Christian ideas underlie some key tenets of America’s constitutional order. For instance, the Founders believed that humans are created in the image of God, which led them to design institutions and laws meant to protect and promote human dignity. Because they were convinced that humans are sinful, they attempted to avoid the concentration of power by framing a national government with carefully enumerated powers. As well, the Founders were committed to liberty, but they never imagined that provisions of the Bill of Rights would be used to protect licentiousness. And they clearly thought moral considerations should inform legislation.
America has drifted from these first principles. We would do well to reconsider the wisdom of these changes.
The Founders believed it permissible for the national and state governments to encourage Christianity, but this may no longer be prudential in our increasingly pluralistic country. Yet the Constitution does not mandate a secular polity, and we should be wary of jurists, politicians, and academics who would strip religion from the public square. We should certainly reject arguments that America’s Founders intended the First Amendment to prohibit neutral programs that support faith-based social service agencies, religious schools, and the like.[42]
Finally, we ignore at our peril the Founders’ insight that democracy requires a moral people and that faith is an important, if not indispensable, support for morality. Such faith may well flourish best without government support, but it should not have to flourish in the face of government hostility.
—Mark David Hall, Ph.D., is Herbert Hoover Distinguished Professor of Politics at George Fox University.
Did America Have a Christian Founding?
.....Conclusions
So did America have a Christian Founding? History is complicated, and we should always be suspicious of simple answers to difficult questions. As we have seen, there is precious little evidence that the Founders were deists, wanted religion excluded from the public square, or desired the strict separation of church and state. On the other hand, they identified themselves as Christians, were influenced in important ways by Christian ideas, and generally thought it appropriate for civic authorities to encourage Christianity.
What do these facts mean for Americans who embrace non-Christian faiths or no faith at all? Although the Founders were profoundly influenced by Christianity, they did not design a constitutional order only for fellow believers. They explicitly prohibited religious tests for federal offices, and they were committed to the proposition that all men and women should be free to worship God (or not) as their consciences dictate.
As evidenced by George Washington’s 1790 letter to a “Hebrew Congregation” in Newport, Rhode Island, the new nation was to be open to a wide array of individuals who were willing to assume the responsibilities of citizenship:
All [citizens] possess alike liberty and conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.
…May the Children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other Inhabitants; while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and fig tree, and there shall be none to make him afraid. May the father of all mercies scatter light and not darkness in our paths, and make us all in our several vocations useful here, and in his own due time and way everlastingly happy.[41]
Yet it does not follow from this openness that Americans should simply forget about their country’s Christian roots. Anyone interested in an accurate account of the nation’s past cannot afford to ignore the important influence of faith on many Americans, from the Puritans to the present day.…May the Children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other Inhabitants; while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and fig tree, and there shall be none to make him afraid. May the father of all mercies scatter light and not darkness in our paths, and make us all in our several vocations useful here, and in his own due time and way everlastingly happy.[41]
Christian ideas underlie some key tenets of America’s constitutional order. For instance, the Founders believed that humans are created in the image of God, which led them to design institutions and laws meant to protect and promote human dignity. Because they were convinced that humans are sinful, they attempted to avoid the concentration of power by framing a national government with carefully enumerated powers. As well, the Founders were committed to liberty, but they never imagined that provisions of the Bill of Rights would be used to protect licentiousness. And they clearly thought moral considerations should inform legislation.
America has drifted from these first principles. We would do well to reconsider the wisdom of these changes.
The Founders believed it permissible for the national and state governments to encourage Christianity, but this may no longer be prudential in our increasingly pluralistic country. Yet the Constitution does not mandate a secular polity, and we should be wary of jurists, politicians, and academics who would strip religion from the public square. We should certainly reject arguments that America’s Founders intended the First Amendment to prohibit neutral programs that support faith-based social service agencies, religious schools, and the like.[42]
Finally, we ignore at our peril the Founders’ insight that democracy requires a moral people and that faith is an important, if not indispensable, support for morality. Such faith may well flourish best without government support, but it should not have to flourish in the face of government hostility.
—Mark David Hall, Ph.D., is Herbert Hoover Distinguished Professor of Politics at George Fox University.
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Oh, so everyone just has an opinion of the Scriptures? Cool. That means no one is right when consistently applied.
That makes Branch Davidian, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormon's, Black Hebrew Israelites, Satanists, New Age, Christian Scientist, Remnant Fellowship, all Christian that just have different opinions!
And for the record p_rehbein, (the great compromiser of truth and Scripture, which is why he is on the fence with truth) one who on here embraces some of the aforementioned as Christian. You and Harry Fosdick would get along wonderfully, he also held to apostate views!
And the above is an outright lie, but I'm not in the least surprised! Totally false. The matter of the fact is p_rehbein does not accept Calvinists as believers, nor any who embrace OSAS.
That makes Branch Davidian, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormon's, Black Hebrew Israelites, Satanists, New Age, Christian Scientist, Remnant Fellowship, all Christian that just have different opinions!
And for the record p_rehbein, (the great compromiser of truth and Scripture, which is why he is on the fence with truth) one who on here embraces some of the aforementioned as Christian. You and Harry Fosdick would get along wonderfully, he also held to apostate views!
And the above is an outright lie, but I'm not in the least surprised! Totally false. The matter of the fact is p_rehbein does not accept Calvinists as believers, nor any who embrace OSAS.
As I have asked time and time again tell where they are not Biblical! What church do you go to? I'm willing to bet they have a statement of what the church stand for. If not independent then there are the doctrinal statement of beliefs of the denomination. You can't get away from man made documents. I defy you to just use the Bible and look up all verses on any given topic. To do that you need one of the man made systematic theology books. You can look up a topic and find every verse in the Bible on that topic!
What about all of the books in a Bible book store written by Biblical scholars on a variety of topics with lots of scripture backing up the assertions the book makes on the issue.
Quit with the hogwash!! There are many man written books that help people with what the Bible states.
What about all of the books in a Bible book store written by Biblical scholars on a variety of topics with lots of scripture backing up the assertions the book makes on the issue.
Quit with the hogwash!! There are many man written books that help people with what the Bible states.