The 144,000 named in Revelation

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dcontroversal said:
No thanks to a commentary.........the facts and characteristics are clear enough.....and the above is pure speculation....
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Actually it makes the most sense - even if the 144k were married they would still not be "defiled with women", scripture no where claims that marriage is to be "defiled with women"

So John's figurative description of them as not idolatrous (virgins) which is described as fornication and harlotry in the bible.

Hosea 4:15 Though thou, Israel, play the harlot, yet let not Judah offend; and come not ye unto Gilgal, neither go ye up to Bethaven, nor swear, The LORD liveth.

2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
 
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Locutus said:
Actually it makes the most sense - even if the 144k were married they would still not be "defiled with women", scripture no where claims that marriage is to be "defiled with women"

So John's figurative description of them as not idolatrous (virgins) which is described as fornication and harlotry in the bible.

Hosea 4:15 Though thou, Israel, play the harlot, yet let not Judah offend; and come not ye unto Gilgal, neither go ye up to Bethaven, nor swear, The LORD liveth.

2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
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Try again and go to the law......and then tell me what happens when a man lie with a woman and exactly how long they were considered UNCLEAN after.....again...if, and I believe I am right, these are the boys killed by Herod they would have been born, lived and died under the law......

There is not ONE iota of proof of what you are trying to apply unto them.....
 
Absolutely said:
The clue to understanding the 144k is "firstfruits"
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Actually there are 14 clues.....11 characteristics, 4 locations tied to where they are located, one offering of the O.T. and in my view a prophetic utterance fulfilled at the age of 2 and under.....

Although I will say....it is the same word applied unto Christ
 
dcontroversal said:
Try again and go to the law......and then tell me what happens when a man lie with a woman and exactly how long they were considered UNCLEAN after.....again...if, and I believe I am right, these are the boys killed by Herod they would have been born, lived and died under the law......

There is not ONE iota of proof of what you are trying to apply unto them.....
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rolleye0010.gif

So now you are trying to equate "unclean" with "defiled with women" - thou dost graspeth at the straws. BigSmile.gif
 
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I always try and consider the who, what, why and when of any Biblical issue, but usually consider the “why” to carry more weight.
 
dcontroversal said:
Try again and go to the law......and then tell me what happens when a man lie with a woman and exactly how long they were considered UNCLEAN after.....again...if, and I believe I am right, these are the boys killed by Herod they would have been born, lived and died under the law......

There is not ONE iota of proof of what you are trying to apply unto them.....
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If those are the boys then what and when was the hurting of the earth that happened just after the boys being sealed?

Rev 7:3 (KJV) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
 
KJV1611 said:
If those are the boys then what and when was the hurting of the earth that happened just after the boys being sealed?

Rev 7:3 (KJV) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
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I understand what you are saying but again I point to the verbiage used and believe it is symbolic......and note the seal is in their foreheads.......

I must go with the verbiage as the clue.....

The angel SEALING is ASCENDING from the east <--same word applied unto JESUS when he ascended
The angel ascending to SEAL is speaking to the angel DESCENDING to the EARTH to do the hurt

I must logically conclude that if the one DESCENDING to the EARTH to hurt is being spoken to by the one ASCENDING from the EAST to seal that he is ascending ABOVE the earth.....

This is also logical because of the LOCATIONS they are tied to

a. Before the THRONE, the 4 beasts and 24 elders <---these are in HEAVEN
b. Before the FATHER <--HE is in HEAVEN --> OUR FATHER who art in HEAVEN
c. THEY follow the lamb wherever he goes <---The LAMB is ALSO in HEAVEN

1 + 1 +1 + 1 = 4

I believe, based upon the verbiage that my conclusions are sound....and again I say that I have heard NO ONE ever deal with the 11 characteristics of this group and only flippantly answer with the same ole peddle belief......
 
GraceAndTruth said:
Revelation written BEFORE 70AD
1. John was not on Patmos after 68AD. As a prisoner on Patmost he would have been released on the death of Nero as was the custom of that time.
2. John mentions the temple as standing in REv 11
3. That John mentions the 7 kings with 5 dead and the 6th in power, which is Nero, (the 7th being Galba who reigned for 7 months)
4 John said he was ON Patmos when he wrote this.
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no, that date is off.

Postribs lean to that date,erroneously,to compensate for Ad 70 when Jerusalem got sacked.
 
KJV1611 said:
My opinion is that the sealing of the 144000 is hidden in the Old Testament and it’s my belief that we can’t understand the 144000 without it.
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A couple posts have touched on important clues.
Firstfruits speaks to purpose.
Most don't realize what their purpose is .(the 144k).

Firstfruits means they are " the first" ....and about a tenth of the main harvest

Harvest <> firstfruits.

They are part of harvest.

Seems most all here skip what is possibly the most important component. It is easy to do.
 
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garee said:
"Virginity" is more in the spiritual realm like the use of the word fatherless or widows. A widow would be as a virgin not married .Just as fatherless represents our father in heaven. Both in the special care people of the family of God are to have for one another.

James 1:27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

The bride of Christ is recognized as a chaste virgin as one that does not fornicate with the gods of this world. Mary could of been but again the flesh of Christ is shown as profiting for nothing as far as the actual of pouring out his Spirit (unseen work) as promised in Joel.

If its not after the corrupted flesh of the Son of man Jesus then for sure it cannot be after Mary. She was a good example of a believer.

Hand maiden I think simply means female slave.
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I stand by my original post and have NO idea where you are coming from with your post. The scripture you used is pointless to the issue of virginity and quite out of context.

I did not use the term HANDMAID, I used the term MAID, which would refer to woman who is unmarried and virgin.
 
marinerscatch said:
Roman Archives and historians have a different view.

John of Patmos - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Patmos
The early Christian writer Papias appeared in his writings to distinguish between John the Evangelist and John the Elder, and many biblical scholars now contend that the latter was the author of Revelation. Island of Patmos. John is considered to be exiled to Patmos, undergoing a time of persecution under the Roman rule of Domitian.

Emperor Domitian, brother of Titus who led the destruction of Jerusalem 70 A.D. under Nero, claims and is recorded to be responsible for placing John in Patmos around 95 A.D. Nero died and Titus took over. After Titus, his brother Domitian ruled. This is according to Roman Archives and historian views.
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well, you are just plain wrong
Domitian ruled from circa 81 to 96, the Jewish wars took place 66AD to 70AD.
John was exiled to Patmos by NERO, on Nero's death in 68AD, John was released from Patmos as was the custom of that time to release prisoners on death of an emporer. John returned to Ephseus where he pastored for many years.
For John to write Revelation after 90AD, he would have been at least 95 years old, and THEN to be released and pastor at Ephesus for several years??? Also John wrote in REvelation 11 that the temple was standing. It was detroyed in 70AD.

I don't get my information from WIKIPEDIA like you do
 
iamsoandso said:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0136.htm see chapter 11 Polycarp(Bishop of Smyrna) thought Smyrna didn't know the Lord then.
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I have newadvent in my save
iamsoandso said:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0136.htm see chapter 11 Polycarp(Bishop of Smyrna) thought Smyrna didn't know the Lord then.
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I don't use Roman Catholic web sites for information. newadvent is RCC sponsored.
Anyway, I didn't see what you were trying to say about Polycarp.
 
I stand by my original post and have NO idea where you are coming from with your post. The scripture you used is pointless to the issue of virginity and quite out of context.
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Where I am coming from is the word virgin in scripture is used mainly to represent the chaste virgin bride of Christ, the church . The theme of the bible. Christ and his chaste virgin bride. Mankind who do not fornicate with the gods of this world (were not defiled with women)

She is shown in that parable in Revelation 12 . And is included in the 144,000 a metaphor in that parable used to represent all the father gave to the Son as the eternal chaste virgin bride the church.

New creatures redeemed from mankind (men and woman make up one creation) . The first fruits is our new incorruptible bodies as a new creation. Neither male nor female, Jew nor gentile

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


I did not use the term HANDMAID, I used the term MAID, which would refer to woman who is unmarried and virgin.
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The word maid simply denotes young woman. She could be a un-married prostitute . The virginity is inspect to the unmarried or widows. Widows and fatherless (no heavenly father) is what we were before in Christ we heard the wedding proposal, the gospel of our salvation .
 
GraceAndTruth said:
well, you are just plain wrong
Domitian ruled from circa 81 to 96, the Jewish wars took place 66AD to 70AD.
John was exiled to Patmos by NERO, on Nero's death in 68AD, John was released from Patmos as was the custom of that time to release prisoners on death of an emporer. John returned to Ephseus where he pastored for many years.
For John to write Revelation after 90AD, he would have been at least 95 years old, and THEN to be released and pastor at Ephesus for several years??? Also John wrote in REvelation 11 that the temple was standing. It was detroyed in 70AD.

I don't get my information from WIKIPEDIA like you do
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OK, but this wiki page coincides with actual Roman Archive and the Ruler who handled John at Patmos was Domitian according to Roman Archive. I am able to use to wiki since it matches 100% to Roman Archive. And Roman Archive claims you are wrong. And I believe Roman Archive is definitely more accurate than your opinion in this matter.

And yes, the Temple will be standing during the Tribulation period because the antichrist will defile it.
But verse 2 of chapter 11 also claims the Temple is gone so God did not have them measure the court.
Looks like you are picking and choosing scripture but actually none of it is lining up, including your list of Roman leaders.
The majority of biblical scholars agree John was in Patmos around 95/96 A.D. and lived to be a very old man in Ephesus.
But the big key is verse 3 the 2 witnesses that get killed and come back to life. Nowhere in the 70 A.D. do historians claim this event took place. Clearly this is about the future as in our time and beyond, not the 70 A.D. destruction.
 
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… and this verse doesn't sound as though it is speaking prophetically of a future event:

"...even in the days of Antipas My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you..." Revelation 2:13
 
dcontroversal said:
Not hardly and what I said was factual.....but like usual, instead of accepting truth, you come back with some flippant remark......par for the course with you!
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hemad.jpg


TRUTH, there is no truth in yer theory,
 
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