Is Universalsim in Opposition to the Bible?
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Disagreement does not mean conflict.. Conflict needs an emotion of hate and anger to a certain extent.. I feel no hate or anger towards you.. Frustration?? Yes indeed .. But hate and anger Nope..
You have already acknowledged that one must Believe Jesus and accept the Atonement He secured as the only Way in a earlier reply to me.. Are you now saying that your agreement was a lie ?? You said and i quote::
So now are you saying there are two or more ways ??
And please do not use the term ""With all due respect"" It has been my experience that people using that terminology in their posts have little if any respect to the person they are responding to..
You are extending a "conflict in viewpoint" into an emotional conflict. Specifically, "hate and anger".
Certainly not what I meant. Nor what the term means either.
Ironically, you now see the conflict in viewpoint. Even to the point of questioning my honesty.
Based on what? Based on a conflicting viewpoint. Right?
And it should be clear that "Someone ending up in heaven that had no prior knowledge of Christ..." is not a way.
There is nothing self-initiated about it. This is a case of God reaching out to someone to have a relationship that has nothing to do with Christ. In the same way that he reached out to Abraham and to Moses. All the Patriarchs really. And all those un-named souls that had a relationship but did not end up in our Bible. Does a pre-Christ individual have to end up in the Bible to be saved?
Are you now comprehending what I am saying or are you still in a fog?
And, yes, I am being respectful, and no, I have no interest in compelled speech.
I will say things as I see fit. Accept me as I am. Jesus did. You can too. With all due respect.
Certainly not what I meant. Nor what the term means either.
Ironically, you now see the conflict in viewpoint. Even to the point of questioning my honesty.
Based on what? Based on a conflicting viewpoint. Right?
And it should be clear that "Someone ending up in heaven that had no prior knowledge of Christ..." is not a way.
There is nothing self-initiated about it. This is a case of God reaching out to someone to have a relationship that has nothing to do with Christ. In the same way that he reached out to Abraham and to Moses. All the Patriarchs really. And all those un-named souls that had a relationship but did not end up in our Bible. Does a pre-Christ individual have to end up in the Bible to be saved?
Are you now comprehending what I am saying or are you still in a fog?
And, yes, I am being respectful, and no, I have no interest in compelled speech.
I will say things as I see fit. Accept me as I am. Jesus did. You can too. With all due respect.
In a text based discussion i can only go on what you have posted.. Now of you have posted that there is only one way to eternal salvation and i replied with a happy reply that we are now in agreement on something and then later you re-post the position that someone could enter into heaven without even knowing Jesus then my questioning you why you have changed your tune is justifiable.. The way to rspond to me is to either aknowledge i am correct or reveal why i am wrong in my response to your seemingly contradictory stances... So now i will ask you again..
Do you believe that the only Way to eternal life with God in his perfect existence is my believing Jesus and trusting in the Atonement He secured for the forgiveness of ones sin??? YES or NO....
But then why did you say the following::
If they have not accepted the Word of God and His Atonement then they have not been adopted and lifted up to the status of Children of God.. And how can they have eternity secured with God if they have not ever been offered the good news of the Gospel.. They have not yes accepted the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ..
There would have to be billions and billions of people mentioned in the Bible if being mentioned in the Bible was a necessary prerequisite for salvation.. Why on earth do you even bring up such a point? When no one has ever put that point forward in this discussion.. Are you in a discussion we me or are you debating yourself?
Well please state clearly what you believe and maybe this conversation will reach a conclusion in an efficient manor..
Compelled speech ? Is this another issue that i have not mentioned that you are bringing up for some unknown reason? Are you in a discussion we me or a strawman ?
Then say what you believe clearly and be consistent and stop bringing up issues that have not been issues in this discussion..
Do you believe that the only Way to eternal life with God in his perfect existence is my believing Jesus and trusting in the Atonement He secured for the forgiveness of ones sin??? YES or NO....
But then why did you say the following::
If they have not accepted the Word of God and His Atonement then they have not been adopted and lifted up to the status of Children of God.. And how can they have eternity secured with God if they have not ever been offered the good news of the Gospel.. They have not yes accepted the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ..
There would have to be billions and billions of people mentioned in the Bible if being mentioned in the Bible was a necessary prerequisite for salvation.. Why on earth do you even bring up such a point? When no one has ever put that point forward in this discussion.. Are you in a discussion we me or are you debating yourself?
Well please state clearly what you believe and maybe this conversation will reach a conclusion in an efficient manor..
Compelled speech ? Is this another issue that i have not mentioned that you are bringing up for some unknown reason? Are you in a discussion we me or a strawman ?
Then say what you believe clearly and be consistent and stop bringing up issues that have not been issues in this discussion..
Galatians 3:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
John 8:56-58 King James Version (KJV)
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
I think Abraham had some knowledge.
As for Moses, let us see what scripture says.
John 5:46 King James Version (KJV)
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
John 1:45 King James Version (KJV)
45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Moses too had some knowledge.
I think you must keep in mind that righteousness has always been by faith, and not works. Salvation by grace through faith. All fall short of God's glory, there is none righteous. This idea that God has some secluded monk, "holy and pure", is a falsehood. For Christ died for the world, every soul. Without Jesus are they not the Lord's children, because they have not been born-again by the Spirit of Adoption (the Holy Spirit).
We have to be careful with speculations, and extrabiblical concepts because they so easily contradict His word, the truth. We may ponder, but one day we will know. Your premise, fellow believer, is false. The people of old too were saved by the means of faith. This faith is in the coming Messiah, or for us, the one Who came and conquered and now sits on the Father's right hand. Jesus Christ. As scripture clearly teaches, those that are saved are saved through His redemptive work. There is no "child" within the Lamb's Book of Life who does not know Jesus.
The significance of evangelists and disciples is testament in and of itself, to the verity of preaching the Gospel in the here and now. For to become a child of God must one be born again, and this process is a result of saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
John 8:56-58 King James Version (KJV)
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
I think Abraham had some knowledge.
As for Moses, let us see what scripture says.
John 5:46 King James Version (KJV)
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
John 1:45 King James Version (KJV)
45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Moses too had some knowledge.
I think you must keep in mind that righteousness has always been by faith, and not works. Salvation by grace through faith. All fall short of God's glory, there is none righteous. This idea that God has some secluded monk, "holy and pure", is a falsehood. For Christ died for the world, every soul. Without Jesus are they not the Lord's children, because they have not been born-again by the Spirit of Adoption (the Holy Spirit).
We have to be careful with speculations, and extrabiblical concepts because they so easily contradict His word, the truth. We may ponder, but one day we will know. Your premise, fellow believer, is false. The people of old too were saved by the means of faith. This faith is in the coming Messiah, or for us, the one Who came and conquered and now sits on the Father's right hand. Jesus Christ. As scripture clearly teaches, those that are saved are saved through His redemptive work. There is no "child" within the Lamb's Book of Life who does not know Jesus.
The significance of evangelists and disciples is testament in and of itself, to the verity of preaching the Gospel in the here and now. For to become a child of God must one be born again, and this process is a result of saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Galatians 3:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
John 8:56-58 King James Version (KJV)
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
I think Abraham had some knowledge.
As for Moses, let us see what scripture says.
John 5:46 King James Version (KJV)
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
John 1:45 King James Version (KJV)
45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Moses too had some knowledge.
I think you must keep in mind that righteousness has always been by faith, and not works. Salvation by grace through faith. All fall short of God's glory, there is none righteous. This idea that God has some secluded monk, "holy and pure", is a falsehood. For Christ died for the world, every soul. Without Jesus are they not the Lord's children, because they have not been born-again by the Spirit of Adoption (the Holy Spirit).
We have to be careful with speculations, and extrabiblical concepts because they so easily contradict His word, the truth. We may ponder, but one day we will know. Your premise, fellow believer, is false. The people of old too were saved by the means of faith. This faith is in the coming Messiah, or for us, the one Who came and conquered and now sits on the Father's right hand. Jesus Christ. As scripture clearly teaches, those that are saved are saved through His redemptive work. There is no "child" within the Lamb's Book of Life who does not know Jesus.
The significance of evangelists and disciples is testament in and of itself, to the verity of preaching the Gospel in the here and now. For to become a child of God must one be born again, and this process is a result of saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
John 8:56-58 King James Version (KJV)
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
I think Abraham had some knowledge.
As for Moses, let us see what scripture says.
John 5:46 King James Version (KJV)
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
John 1:45 King James Version (KJV)
45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Moses too had some knowledge.
I think you must keep in mind that righteousness has always been by faith, and not works. Salvation by grace through faith. All fall short of God's glory, there is none righteous. This idea that God has some secluded monk, "holy and pure", is a falsehood. For Christ died for the world, every soul. Without Jesus are they not the Lord's children, because they have not been born-again by the Spirit of Adoption (the Holy Spirit).
We have to be careful with speculations, and extrabiblical concepts because they so easily contradict His word, the truth. We may ponder, but one day we will know. Your premise, fellow believer, is false. The people of old too were saved by the means of faith. This faith is in the coming Messiah, or for us, the one Who came and conquered and now sits on the Father's right hand. Jesus Christ. As scripture clearly teaches, those that are saved are saved through His redemptive work. There is no "child" within the Lamb's Book of Life who does not know Jesus.
The significance of evangelists and disciples is testament in and of itself, to the verity of preaching the Gospel in the here and now. For to become a child of God must one be born again, and this process is a result of saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
The OT saints were justified by grace through faith. You would not call them *Christians*, but they were redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, just like every person who is a saint. The Lamb of God was slain from BEFORE the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:18-20), so as far as God was concerned their sins were paid for even before the Cross became a reality.
As to Universalism, it is contrary to the Gospel.
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:15,16)
As to Universalism, it is contrary to the Gospel.
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:15,16)
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I think Nehemiah's response is ample. Redeemed through the blood of the Lamb. These people looked forward to the coming Messiah.
My response was at the concept you put forward, which scripture shows is not the case. Its an interesting concept, but doesn't pan out in reality, or in truth held up to scrutiny. We have scripture as our measuring stick for truth, if you will, just as we have God's objective moral standards in comparison to the subjective morals of the world. Truth is absolute, and if what we may ponder or wonder about contradicts clear revelations within His word, back to the drawing board must we go.
My response was at the concept you put forward, which scripture shows is not the case. Its an interesting concept, but doesn't pan out in reality, or in truth held up to scrutiny. We have scripture as our measuring stick for truth, if you will, just as we have God's objective moral standards in comparison to the subjective morals of the world. Truth is absolute, and if what we may ponder or wonder about contradicts clear revelations within His word, back to the drawing board must we go.
You have shown that the Messiah was revealed through prophecy. But the outworkings of all this was a mystery to them, "kept hidden for ages and generations..." They did not know the specifics as you propose. Earlier we had shared that this was a mystery revealed in these last days.
Colossians 1:25-27
I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Ephesians 3:2-5
Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.
Romans 16:25-27
Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith— 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
Ephesians 1:7-10
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
Colossians 1:25-27
I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Ephesians 3:2-5
Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.
Romans 16:25-27
Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith— 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
Ephesians 1:7-10
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
One more to add to my post above.
Ephesians 3:8-11
Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Ephesians 3:8-11
Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.