Question...

[rlm68]

The TORAH is what Jesus read from, when He read Isaiah, "that no prophet has honor within His own country."..

So, let's see what the Torah (which is what God Himself in the flesh used) says about "Elohim said, let us make man in our own image and in our likeness?"



The Almighty said, “Let us make adam (man) in our image and our likeness.” (Bereshith 1:26) (our Genesis)


Why did God say, “Let us make man”? To whom did He make this statement, and why?

In His infinite humility, God consulted His Heavenly Court before creating man

Who is the the Heavenly Court according to the Torah which Jesus read from?

the Angels and created beings in heaven equal God's Heavenly Court


So, Jesus (Yeshua) read from scrolls of scriptures known as the TORAH that claims ELOHIM is singular, and that let us make man in our image IS NOT THE FALSE TRINITY, but the actual Heavenly Court."

Example: we LOOK just like angels do. So, Angels were made in God's image and we are made in BOTH God and the angel's image!!

Once again, this is from the TORAH, which our God Jesus read from!!

 

[CharliRenee]

Meaning of Elohim

In Biblical Hebrew, Elohim is often referred to in the singular despite the -im ending. ... Exodus 3:4, "Elohim called unto him out of the midst of the bush ..."), it behaves like a singular noun in Hebrew grammar, and is then generally understood to denote the ((single God of Israel)).

If you pay close attention to Exodus 3:4...it would not make sense if this verse meant ((the plural God)) called unto him in the midst of the bush. But as ONE PERSON representing God as ELOHIM, this verse makes absolute perfect sense!!

Ok but then what do you do with this...

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Genesis 1:26 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/gen.1.26.NASB

 

[CharliRenee]

The TORAH is what Jesus read from, when He read Isaiah, "that no prophet has honor within His own country."..

So, let's see what the Torah (which is what God Himself in the flesh used) says about "Elohim said, let us make man in our own image and in our likeness?"



The Almighty said, “Let us make adam (man) in our image and our likeness.” (Bereshith 1:26) (our Genesis)


Why did God say, “Let us make man”? To whom did He make this statement, and why?

In His infinite humility, God consulted His Heavenly Court before creating man

Who is the the Heavenly Court according to the Torah which Jesus read from?

the Angels and created beings in heaven equal God's Heavenly Court


So, Jesus (Yeshua) read from scrolls of scriptures known as the TORAH that claims ELOHIM is singular, and that let us make man in our image IS NOT THE FALSE TRINITY, but the actual Heavenly Court."

Example: we LOOK just like angels do. So, Angels were made in God's image and we are made in BOTH God and the angel's image!!

Once again, this is from the TORAH, which our God Jesus read from!!

ok you answered already, oops. Thank you.

 

[prove-all]

But, when Peter and Paul are in the Book of Acts (the actual FIRST CHURCH EXAMPLE we have),
they are baptizing in the NAME of JESUS, not in the trinity.

So, why would Peter not obey Jesus? Why would Paul not obey Jesus?

Why baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son,
and of the Holy Ghost ? That there is a way to salvation


-We are reconciled to God by the death of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:10).

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,
much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

-by his goodness the Father brings us to and grants us repentance (Romans 2:4).

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering;
not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

-After repentance, we are to be baptized. (Acts 2:38).

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name
of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

-It is the Spirit that actually begets us as sons of God (Romans 8:9, 14, 16-17).
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

-the begetting agent that comes from God, the Holy Spirit is the earnest or
down payment, of our salvation (Ephesians 1:14; Romans 8:16).

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of
the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

-We are baptized into the truth by God’s power (Matthew 3:11; John 1:33).

3I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than
I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me,
Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he
which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

-That Spirit, God’s power, actually dwells in us after baptism (Acts 2:38; 4:8, 31; Ezekiel 36:27).

8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

27And I will put (my spirit) within you, and (cause you to walk) in (my statutes),
and ye shall (keep my judgments, and do them).

- was given to witness to the world.

8 But ye shall (receive power), after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:
and ye shall be (witnesses) unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria,
and unto the (uttermost part) of the earth.

-the Holy Spirit is [The Power of God] plain and simple.
-will teach and bring things to our remembrance through the power of His Spirit
(John 14:26).

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall
teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

-God will give His Spirit to those who ask, and for the right reason.(Luke 11:13).

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children:
how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

-God reveals His secrets to us through the Holy Spirit (Luke 2:26)

26And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should
not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

-helps us speak his words boldly.

31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together;
and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

- and in truth his words about things to come.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come,
he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself;
but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will (shew you things to come).
-

2And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

 

[rlm68]

Why baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son,
and of the Holy Ghost ? That there is a way to salvation


-We are reconciled to God by the death of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:10).

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,
much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

-by his goodness the Father brings us to and grants us repentance (Romans 2:4).

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering;
not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

-After repentance, we are to be baptized. (Acts 2:38).

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name
of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

-It is the Spirit that actually begets us as sons of God (Romans 8:9, 14, 16-17).
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

-the begetting agent that comes from God, the Holy Spirit is the earnest or
down payment, of our salvation (Ephesians 1:14; Romans 8:16).

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of
the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

-We are baptized into the truth by God’s power (Matthew 3:11; John 1:33).

3I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than
I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me,
Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he
which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

-That Spirit, God’s power, actually dwells in us after baptism (Acts 2:38; 4:8, 31; Ezekiel 36:27).

8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

27And I will put (my spirit) within you, and (cause you to walk) in (my statutes),
and ye shall (keep my judgments, and do them).

- was given to witness to the world.

8 But ye shall (receive power), after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:
and ye shall be (witnesses) unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria,
and unto the (uttermost part) of the earth.

-the Holy Spirit is [The Power of God] plain and simple.
-will teach and bring things to our remembrance through the power of His Spirit
(John 14:26).

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall
teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

-God will give His Spirit to those who ask, and for the right reason.(Luke 11:13).

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children:
how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

-God reveals His secrets to us through the Holy Spirit (Luke 2:26)

26And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should
not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

-helps us speak his words boldly.

31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together;
and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

- and in truth his words about things to come.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come,
he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself;
but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will (shew you things to come).
-

2And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Here is a clear example of Paul baptizing in NAME of JESUS:

Acts 19:
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


Now, read these 3 verses. The men are saved and receive the Holy Ghost. But LOOK how they were baptized under what NAME?


JESUS!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Trinity in the OT

Is 48:
Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The Lord loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”
17 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“I am the Lord your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.

 

[Deade]

Part of the church fathers starting doctrines was framed in what could and could not be said.

Jesus is God's only begotten.
He is begotten of the father.

Ok,but also he is alpha and omega.

He ISN'T. firstborn OF. the dead.
Firstborn OF THE FATHER.
HE has no beginnig and no ending.

There never was a time when he was not firstborn. He wasn't "not firstborn" waiting to become firstborn.

He just is.
He just is.
You can't understand those components.

It is by faith we simply believe.
( what can,and cannot, be said)

Whatever do you mean? You sound a little confused. Will settle for: "You can't understand those components."

 

[Angela53510]

I always use the Hebrew. Did you know in Hebrew the word Elohim means ONE/SINGULAR?

But English and American preachers thought the Hebrews were morons and changed it to be plural!!

IDIOTS who got suckered by the Catholic dogma!!


To wrap it all up, we've discovered that the meaning of Elohim in Hebrew is "one who is strong and has authority," and that the word is sometimes used to refer to God, and other times it refers to humans.

STOP! STOP! STOP! I'm only on page 6 of this thread, and your heresy and ignorance has just overwhelmed me. Where did you learn all this utter and complete lies and garbage???

Elohim is plural in Hebrew. If you had ever studied Hebrew, instead of looking at interlinears, you would know that any time "im" is attached to a masculine noun, it turns it into a plural. not just El, but every single masculine noun.

Melech is king, melechim is kings, melecham is two kings (dual)
Sos is horse, Sosim is horses, Sosam is two horses

Feminine has a different ending "oth"
Malcah is queen, melachoth is queens, melcham is two queens.
Sosah is mare, sosoth is queens and sosam is two mares.

I can't begin to count the flights of imagination you have posted, that are utterly made up nonsense. Since the Catholic Church didn't exist in the 2nd century AD, not likely they went around and found every single early copy of Matt 28:19 and changed them from your United Pentecostal/Oneness doctrine of "baptised in the name of Jesus" to a Trinitarian baptism. The entire Bible, especially the NT is Trinitarian. More likely the Baptimal formula got changed in Acts! (I'm not saying it was changed, just how absurd his whole suggestion is!)

As far as your statement earlier, that God is "one person" that is the most wrong doctrine I have ever read. In fact, God is one ousia, or being, with three hypostasis or three persons, as it translates badly into English. You also included some heretical modalism in there, with God having 3 manifestations. NO! NO! NO!

God has three distinct person. The Father functions as the ground of the world and of the divine program for creation. The Son functions as the revealer of God, the exemplar and herald of the Father's will for creation, and the redeemer of humankind. And the Spirit functions as the personal divine power active in the world, the completer of the divine will; and program.

None of the 3 hypostasis or persons can take the place of the other. The Father and the Spirit are not the Logos. They were not incarnated, only the Son. The distinctions within the one God are ontological. There are three - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - who together comprise the one God. Were the threeness of God not ontological, the Son and the Spirit would ultimately be lacking in full deity. If that were true, we could not participate in salvation.

Because of the threeness of the one God is ontological it is also functional and economic. It belongs to the workings of the one God in the world. Just as there are three who comprise the one God throughout all eternity, so also there are three - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - who are at work in the world, bringing about the one divine program for creation.

I think you need to put down your simplistic Oneness dogma, and spend some time reading books about the Trinity, to hear the other side of this discussion. I just spent the semester reading over 30 books about the Trinity, written by people from every denomination. One Catholic writer, Karl Rahner, writes that modern Christianity is functionally monotheist, or tritheist. But only a Trinitarian theology maintains the oneness of God, in the immanent and economic Trinity, and three persons, each distinct and yet constituting one divine essence - the triune God.

 

[Angela53510]

Meaning of Elohim

In Biblical Hebrew, Elohim is often referred to in the singular despite the -im ending. ... Exodus 3:4, "Elohim called unto him out of the midst of the bush ..."), it behaves like a singular noun in Hebrew grammar, and is then generally understood to denote the ((single God of Israel)).

If you pay close attention to Exodus 3:4...it would not make sense if this verse meant ((the plural God)) called unto him in the midst of the bush. But as ONE PERSON representing God as ELOHIM, this verse makes absolute perfect sense!!

Challenge again -Source??

You post this utter definitive garbage and claim it PROVES your point. BUT, you have copied and pasted the spelling of Elohim in Hebrew and not said where you got it from. Then the paragraph the despite IM being the plural ending in Hebrew it is actually means "one" as is in singleness.

NO! You are dead wrong in this. In fact, if you go back to the Shema, in Deut. 6, it says "Hear oh Israel the Lord our God is ONE" the word one in Hebrew is echad - and it means one in a group. Elsewhere in the OT it is used to say "one bunch of grapes."

And regardless of how it is used today by Jews in modern Hebrew, or on Wikipedia, where you have illegally copied and pasted this without a reference, God is a triune God.

I looked at all the references in that Wikipedia article and there literally was a not a single source I recognized. A lot came from Mark Smith's book God in God in Translation: Deities in Cross Cultural Discourse in the Biblical world, which is about cross cultural recognition of Deities in the Biblical World, and being ecumenical towards local traditions. In other words, polytheists. Kind of the opposite of what you are trying to say. We won't even get into the fact that Wikipedia is NEVER a good source for any kind of research, since anyone can start a page, and put up whatever they want!

Sure, the OT is just so ecumenical to foreign gods in the OT. I mean, what Bible is this guy even reading??

 

[pottersclay]

First born in the o.t referred to the first born son. If one asked who is your first born you would point to your oldest son even though his sister may be older.😃😃.

 

[Angela53510]

Like I mentioned in my post to the thread OP...

We have Matthew 28:19 talking to PETER and the other disciples about baptizing in the trinity.

But, when Peter and Paul are in the Book of Acts (the actual FIRST CHURCH EXAMPLE we have), they are baptizing in the NAME of JESUS, not in the trinity.

So, why would Peter not obey Jesus? Why would Paul not obey Jesus?

Because we have information that proves in the second century the CATHOLICS changed Matthew 28:19 from Jesus commanding to baptize in HIS NAME to the bastardized trinity.

The Bible is flawed by Catholic dogma. No doubt those who've done such a thing as changed scripture will NEVER SEE heaven but will be in the Lake of Fire!!

You sure don't know much about textual criticism or church history, do you? There was NO Catholic Church in the 2nd century. There were bishops in 4 places - Antioch, Alexandria, Rome and Caesarea. They were all equal.The word pope wasn't even used till the 3rd century, and it was first used in Alexandria, not Rome. (Papas). The early form of the RCC was after Constantine in the 3rd century AD.

Now, I am NOT a Catholic. They have some doctrines I strongly disagree with, including soteriology. But, they have a high Christology. They have bequeathed that to the Church, along with the Eastern Orthodox, Reformed Churches and all other Protestant denominations who believe in the Trinity and that Jesus Christ is God.

You keep putting things up with no source, and you expect anyone to believe you, when you are trying to trash 2000 years of church history, for every church there is. It also strikes me as incredibly stupid, to think you can reinvent a foundational doctrine like the Trinity, and that every man, woman and child who has ever believed it is wrong. In fact, you are the one who is wrong!

I invite you to study some church history books, and some serious theological books about the Trinity, and come back and report how overwhelmed you are by the WEIGHT of people who can prove you wrong without even stopping to chat!

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

The TORAH is what Jesus read from, when He read Isaiah, "that no prophet has honor within His own country."..

So, let's see what the Torah (which is what God Himself in the flesh used) says about "Elohim said, let us make man in our own image and in our likeness?"



The Almighty said, “Let us make adam (man) in our image and our likeness.” (Bereshith 1:26) (our Genesis)


Why did God say, “Let us make man”? To whom did He make this statement, and why?

In His infinite humility, God consulted His Heavenly Court before creating man

Who is the the Heavenly Court according to the Torah which Jesus read from?

the Angels and created beings in heaven equal God's Heavenly Court


So, Jesus (Yeshua) read from scrolls of scriptures known as the TORAH that claims ELOHIM is singular, and that let us make man in our image IS NOT THE FALSE TRINITY, but the actual Heavenly Court."

Example: we LOOK just like angels do. So, Angels were made in God's image and we are made in BOTH God and the angel's image!!

Once again, this is from the TORAH, which our God Jesus read from!!

Let us(plural) make man...

Are you denying the Trinity?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

In the beginning of John, we understand that Christ is the WORD...

Now, before I go further, I probably see this differently than the majority do. For one, in the Book of Acts (which is our example of the actual first church) we find that both Peter and Paul were baptizing in Jesus (Yeshua's) NAME, not in the trinity. So, I asked myself, why would Peter and Paul not follow Matthew 28:19?

That ended up being easier than I thought...during the second century, the Catholics changed Matthew 28:19 (that originally states Christ commanded them to go and baptize IN HIS NAME) to the triune titles.

So, when we now see Peter and Paul baptizing in Jesus NAME, we understand because this is what Christ actually commanded them to do!!


Now back to the topic that ties in my point of how Peter/Paul and the FIRST CHURCH actually baptized.

We know Christ is the WORD.
Later in the Book of John, we know Christ is also I AM.
But to me, the most important verse are just after Jesus states: when you see ME you see the FATHER, when you see the FATHER you have seen ME...
Which is: Jesus claimed, the things you see me do, hear me speak, that IS NOT ME doing it, that is the FATHER that lives in me doing it.

So, that led to another question and conclusion: What possibly other than we already know, could the WORD (Jesus) be described as when Jesus claimed He was doing nothing...and all we read in the Gospels is what the FATHER living in Him was doing?

Since I know how in Genesis God speaks about how His SPIRIT lives in men (He is talking about the Holy Spirit being His personal SPIRIT like we have our own personal spirit), I asked myself: if the ONE GOD has a personal SPIRIT (capital S indicating the Holy Spirit), then could the WORD be God's actual spoken word (since we know Christ claimed He was doing nothing because it was the FATHER in Him doing it all)?

I clearly believe in the Oneness having 3 manifestations:
I then concluded this:
God speaks and His WORD does the action (this is the same as Jesus saying the miracles you see and things you hear are not me doing them)...Basically, Jesus said, God speaks...and He (Jesus does what is spoken).

This is all beautiful to me:

We have ONE GOD who has a personal Spirit (we know as the Holy Spirit), and when the ONE GOD spoke...His literal WORD made flesh did the action. This is clear there is not 3 separate beings acting as God.

And, this is why Jesus said to baptize in HIS NAME (like we see Peter/Paul in the FIRST CHURCH doing in the Book of Acts).




So, here is the question then:

Had the Catholics not messed with changing scripture (like the Rich man/Lazarus story since the Hebrew/Jews never believed in a burning hell...and this story is about a burning hell)(which is clearly an add on because Jesus would not speak on a burning hell when He did not believe in it)...so, had the Catholics not changed scripture to the trinity, we would not be teaching the trinity today, we would be teaching what they were actually doing in the FIRST CHURCH (baptizing in Jesus NAME).

It's like the Book of Isaiah: Clearly that Book is Hebrew and Aramaic. But there is ONE WORD in Isaiah that is LATIN. Why is this shocking? Latin DID NOT EXIST YET when Isaiah lived. And yet, we have the LATIN word "Lucifer" in the Aramaic/Hebrew Book of Isaiah.

So, had the Catholics not changed a bunch of scripture, we would actually be following the TRUTH, not the crap the Catholics made up and added to the Bible!!


And to answer your original question: Colossians basically states, if the invisible God looked into the mirror...He would see Himself as Jesus...and if Jesus looked into a mirror, He would see Himself as the invisible God...because they are ONE and the SAME PERSON!!

This reeks of Modalism.

 

[Angela53510]

Regarding the OP: Col 1:15

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation," NET

"ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως," Greek

A Linguistic and Exegetical Guide to the New Testament, by Rogers and Rogers, (pg 461) says the following about the word πρωτότοκος, or firstborn:

"The word emphasizes the pre-existence and uniqueness of Christ, as well as His superiority over creation. The term does NOT imply that Jesus was a created being, or a creation."

Douglas Moo, in the Pillar New Testament Commentary, The Letters to the Colossians and to Philemon (pgs 117-118) notes in this verse that the Son, who the Father loves, in whom we have redemption, who is the image, where Paul is probably quoting a hymn from the early church, has 2 important depictions.

The hymn opens with the two parallel depictions of the Son: The image of God, and the firstborn over creation. The image of God in humans and what that would look like (from Genesis 1:26-28) and what humans were created to be has long been debated.

However, the real question is "what does it mean for Christ to be the image of God?" In Col 1:15, and 2 Cor. 4:4, Paul asserts that the focus must be on Christ's revelation of God. He is the "image" in accordance with which human beings are formed. According to both the OT and Judaism, as John puts it "no one has ever seen God." (John 1:18a), he is, as Paul puts it in Col 1 "invisible (ἀοράτου).

The question that comes out of this is: Where can God be seen? in this respect, Col. 1:15 is similar to John 1:1-18, in John's depiction of the "Word" and the Word was "with God" and "was God." and also to Hebrews 1:3 "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being,"

The second depiction is "the firstborn over all creation." While some, including Arius in the 4th century, suggest this makes Christ a created being, in fact, the genitive construction of πάσης κτίσεως - (pases ktiseos) as "over all creation" hints at the answer. First born can be used to mean the first to come out of a womb. However, it takes on a metaphorical significance based on the ancient attribution of preeminence to the first to be born.

Thus, in Exodus 4:22, Israel is called God's firstborn; in Psalm 89:27, God says of David,
"And I will appoint him to be my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth."

This latter text is important for Col. 1:15, as Psalm 89 rings with messianic allusions, and Paul has just been describing Christ in kingly/messianic terms (Col. 1:12-14). Hebrews also uses prototokotos πρωτότοκος as as Christological title in a messianic context (Hebrews 1:6)

Against this background, then, and since the "hymn" goes on to affirm Christ's mediatorial role in all of creation, it is clear the word here is used in the sense of to be "supreme over." As the first predicate in v.15 presents Christ in unique relationship to God, so the second asserts his unique role to creation: he is the "acting subject who extends God's activity to the creatures that follow him."

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Something else people don't get, when the Bible was translated into the KJV English, it was common then to speak in the 3rd person view. So, many times when we think a scripture means more than ONE person, if you look at it from a 3rd person view, you can obviously see it only means ONE person!!

Just like describing Christ is now sitting on the RIGHT HAND of God, that literally does not mean TWO PEOPLE, it means that Christ has FULL POWER of God (the RIGHT HAND in the OLD ENGLISH means and affirms HIGHEST ABSOLUTE POWER).

But since the Catholics bastardized scripture with their own views (not the view of God), we have people clearly missing out from the TRUTH!!

You are a Modalist my friend. Please repent of this.

 

[rlm68]

STOP! STOP! STOP! I'm only on page 6 of this thread, and your heresy and ignorance has just overwhelmed me. Where did you learn all this utter and complete lies and garbage???

Elohim is plural in Hebrew. If you had ever studied Hebrew, instead of looking at interlinears, you would know that any time "im" is attached to a masculine noun, it turns it into a plural. not just El, but every single masculine noun.

Melech is king, melechim is kings, melecham is two kings (dual)
Sos is horse, Sosim is horses, Sosam is two horses

Feminine has a different ending "oth"
Malcah is queen, melachoth is queens, melcham is two queens.
Sosah is mare, sosoth is queens and sosam is two mares.

I can't begin to count the flights of imagination you have posted, that are utterly made up nonsense. Since the Catholic Church didn't exist in the 2nd century AD, not likely they went around and found every single early copy of Matt 28:19 and changed them from your United Pentecostal/Oneness doctrine of "baptised in the name of Jesus" to a Trinitarian baptism. The entire Bible, especially the NT is Trinitarian. More likely the Baptimal formula got changed in Acts! (I'm not saying it was changed, just how absurd his whole suggestion is!)

As far as your statement earlier, that God is "one person" that is the most wrong doctrine I have ever read. In fact, God is one ousia, or being, with three hypostasis or three persons, as it translates badly into English. You also included some heretical modalism in there, with God having 3 manifestations. NO! NO! NO!

God has three distinct person. The Father functions as the ground of the world and of the divine program for creation. The Son functions as the revealer of God, the exemplar and herald of the Father's will for creation, and the redeemer of humankind. And the Spirit functions as the personal divine power active in the world, the completer of the divine will; and program.

None of the 3 hypostasis or persons can take the place of the other. The Father and the Spirit are not the Logos. They were not incarnated, only the Son. The distinctions within the one God are ontological. There are three - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - who together comprise the one God. Were the threeness of God not ontological, the Son and the Spirit would ultimately be lacking in full deity. If that were true, we could not participate in salvation.

Because of the threeness of the one God is ontological it is also functional and economic. It belongs to the workings of the one God in the world. Just as there are three who comprise the one God throughout all eternity, so also there are three - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - who are at work in the world, bringing about the one divine program for creation.

I think you need to put down your simplistic Oneness dogma, and spend some time reading books about the Trinity, to hear the other side of this discussion. I just spent the semester reading over 30 books about the Trinity, written by people from every denomination. One Catholic writer, Karl Rahner, writes that modern Christianity is functionally monotheist, or tritheist. But only a Trinitarian theology maintains the oneness of God, in the immanent and economic Trinity, and three persons, each distinct and yet constituting one divine essence - the triune God.

HAHAHAHAHA, why would I want to be blind like YOU and your faith in a 3 person God?

I used the actual TORAH, you know, the same set of scrolls by which Christ Himself quoted from?

I find it interesting that Christ would use such a scroll tied to the Hebrew people believing that ELOHIM meant singular in meaning when referencing God.

So, why did the Hebrews become to believe there was only ONE PERSON of God, that you claim THREE?
After all, GOD HIMSELF personally dealt with the Hebrews and HAS NEVER MADE an appearance on your behalf!!

What is painfully obvious, is your complete IGNORANCE due to some English/American trying to define God rather than listen to what the Hebrew/Jews have known for the past SIX THOUSAND YEARS!!

There is NO TRINITY!!

 

[rlm68]

Challenge again -Source??

You post this utter definitive garbage and claim it PROVES your point. BUT, you have copied and pasted the spelling of Elohim in Hebrew and not said where you got it from. Then the paragraph the despite IM being the plural ending in Hebrew it is actually means "one" as is in singleness.

NO! You are dead wrong in this. In fact, if you go back to the Shema, in Deut. 6, it says "Hear oh Israel the Lord our God is ONE" the word one in Hebrew is echad - and it means one in a group. Elsewhere in the OT it is used to say "one bunch of grapes."

And regardless of how it is used today by Jews in modern Hebrew, or on Wikipedia, where you have illegally copied and pasted this without a reference, God is a triune God.

I looked at all the references in that Wikipedia article and there literally was a not a single source I recognized. A lot came from Mark Smith's book God in God in Translation: Deities in Cross Cultural Discourse in the Biblical world, which is about cross cultural recognition of Deities in the Biblical World, and being ecumenical towards local traditions. In other words, polytheists. Kind of the opposite of what you are trying to say. We won't even get into the fact that Wikipedia is NEVER a good source for any kind of research, since anyone can start a page, and put up whatever they want!

Sure, the OT is just so ecumenical to foreign gods in the OT. I mean, what Bible is this guy even reading??

You sound BUTTHURT in your responses!!

Try exlax, it will help you get past your denial that the Hebrews know who God is, and you obviously don't have a clue!!

 

[rlm68]

You sure don't know much about textual criticism or church history, do you? There was NO Catholic Church in the 2nd century. There were bishops in 4 places - Antioch, Alexandria, Rome and Caesarea. They were all equal.The word pope wasn't even used till the 3rd century, and it was first used in Alexandria, not Rome. (Papas). The early form of the RCC was after Constantine in the 3rd century AD.

Now, I am NOT a Catholic. They have some doctrines I strongly disagree with, including soteriology. But, they have a high Christology. They have bequeathed that to the Church, along with the Eastern Orthodox, Reformed Churches and all other Protestant denominations who believe in the Trinity and that Jesus Christ is God.

You keep putting things up with no source, and you expect anyone to believe you, when you are trying to trash 2000 years of church history, for every church there is. It also strikes me as incredibly stupid, to think you can reinvent a foundational doctrine like the Trinity, and that every man, woman and child who has ever believed it is wrong. In fact, you are the one who is wrong!

I invite you to study some church history books, and some serious theological books about the Trinity, and come back and report how overwhelmed you are by the WEIGHT of people who can prove you wrong without even stopping to chat!

It's their OWN SOURCE (Catholics) that claim to have changed Matthew 28:19!!

Tell me oh dim lit one, IF Christ actually commanded us to baptize in the trinity, WHY in the Book of Acts we find BOTH Paul and Peter baptizing in the NAME of JESUS?

Why would they not follow the orders by Christ?

Because, it is OBVIOUS that when they baptized in Jesus NAME, they were obeying Christ!!

 

[rlm68]

Let us(plural) make man...

Are you denying the Trinity?

Yes I am 100%

 

[rlm68]

This reeks of Modalism.

Nah, it reeks of butthurt people who are comfortable in mommy and daddy's tradition, and everyone else must be wrong!!