Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

[preacher4truth]

Pardon my intervening, but God has given all mankind a free choice to choose how he wants to live his/her life here on earth, but not in their choice to choose their eternal salvation, that is by God's sovereign grace. Man/woman makes his/her choices based upon their fleshly nature until God regenerates them and put his Spirit within them. So they become guilty by their own choices and God does not predestine their choices.

Correct, man doesn't choose his way into heaven no matter how badly Charles Finney and Robert Sandeman have infected the Gospel with error.

 

[Hevosmies]

Men have freedom in their choices, meaning that their choices are free from necessity (geometrická nutnost) as from coercion (nátlak).

There are not just two options - God leaving us to choose randomly without his direction vs God forcing us.

An example with a dog. I can guide a dog to go to a directon I want, using my grace given to him (bowl of meat), but I am NOT forcing him. Even though I am not forcing him, I can make it absolutely certain that his free will will lead him that way.

In this way, the certainity of predetermination and the freedom of the will (the freedom of choosing) can work together without any biblical or logical problem.

And thats why some old theologians taught that God does not force, but only inclines and permits. Our choices are caused but not forced.

You can read it expressed more formally there:
https://www.skidmore.edu/~ljorgens/teachres/Theodicy Packet.pdf

Causa Dei, page 65, articles 102 and next.

Thanks bro! This is great! Nice way to tie them together.

 

[Locutus]

Anything else you want to share??

Naw - your spoon's a lot bigger than mine.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

This is the accompanying account of the narrow path in Matthew:
Luke 13:
23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

So what is this narrow path and gate?

I think John tells us EXACTLY.

John 10:9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture.


I tried to see the wide path, that leads to DESTRUCTION, the way FGC sees it, that those that enter it will be saved, but it simply isn't there. And the attempt to use that Abraham will have SAVED descendants as numerous as the sand on the sea, as justification that the wide path people will be saved, frankly seems like a HUGE stretch.

Why can't there be numerous saved, yet a VASTLY MORE numerous amount that are not?

So if Jesus is the Narrow Path and Narrow Gate, what is the wide path that leads to destruction?

I believe it is EVERY attempt to enter that is NOT Jesus. Partial list:
Baha'i,Buddhism, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Shinto,Sikhism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, Mormonism. And the MOST deceived of all, WORKS BASED CHRISTIANITY.

Every one of these religions have ONE thing in common. MAN ATTEMPTING TO EITHER WORK HIS WAY TO HEAVEN OR BECOME LIKE GOD.

And you can include a whole lot of them on this forum that think that they have the power to alter his will in his desire to eternally save his people. Dan 4:35 - God will accomplish his will and none can STAY HIS HAND.

 

[trofimus]

People are born guilty.

This cannot be proved neither by Scriptures nor by the common sense. And such idea is not just.

 

[preacher4truth]

Thanks bro! This is great! Nice way to tie them together.

Yes, two unbiblical things have been tied together using walking a dog on a leash. LOL!!!

Let's note 1 Corinthians 2:5.

Calvinism doesn't teach God forces persons. That's a false assumption on the part of trofimus (and many others). It's a straw man.

Man's will is not free, that's another false assumption of trofimus.

God does cause us to do his will though; Philippians 2:13; Psalm 23:2; Ezekiel 36:27.

BUT, he does not do this for each and every person ever born. He chooses whom he wills to choose, he is totally free in his will, his election is Sovereign.

One other thing, no person is free in their will, or otherwise, John 8:36, and salvation isn't via man's decision, John 1:13, Romans 9:16 &c. We are only free in Christ, and in no way are free prior to conversion.

We should really be sticking to Scripture, not illustrations that deny biblical truth because they sound suave. I'll stick with Scripture.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

So, how is a "natural" man guilty? Can he change himself, can he do anything, can he will good or do good?

Nope! not until God regenerates him and gives him the Holy Spirit so he can discern spiritual things.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

This cannot be proved neither by Scriptures nor by the common sense. And such idea is not just.

Graceandtruth is right on this one.

 

[trofimus]

Nope! not until God regenerates him and gives him the Holy Spirit so he can discern spiritual things.

So, how is somebody who does not have any choice, guilty? Explain, please.

 

[preacher4truth]

So, how is a "natural" man guilty? Can he change himself, can he do anything, can he will good or do good?

What does the Scriptures say? You ever go there? The answer is no, you don't, except on a rare occasion.

Here is one: Jeremiah 13:23.

Spiritually dead people don't change themselves, and all are born guilty which is why all sin. Romans 3, 4, 5.

 

[preacher4truth]

Nope! not until God regenerates him and gives him the Holy Spirit so he can discern spiritual things.

Agreed.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

This cannot be proved neither by Scriptures nor by the common sense. And such idea is not just.

How many times do I have to post the scripture on this: Romans 5:12 ROMANS 5:12!!!!!!!

 

[GraceAndTruth]

ASV Romans 5:12

12. Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--

 

[trofimus]

People are born guilty

How many times do I have to post the scripture on this: Romans 5:12 ROMANS 5:12!!!!!!!

Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, because all sinned.
R 5:12

Nothing about being born guilty. Actually, the opposite is there - all people die because all people sinned. They are not guilty just because they are born or because they are descendants of Adam. Such doctrine is not biblical and is unjust.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

That, with all due respect, you've been hoodwinked with Primitive Baptist teachings. Please don't tell me you got that on your own -- from years of study -- "you and your bible" -- you got it from the Primitive Baptists you hang out with. This is a well known teaching to those who know about PB's, it is the "time salvation" heresy. No offense intended.

Then is it your assumption that the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, can repent of breaking a spiritual commandment that he cannot understand and thinks it is foolishness?

 

[preacher4truth]

Then is it your assumption that the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, can repent of breaking a spiritual commandment that he cannot understand and thinks it is foolishness?

Nothing in my statement suggested anything of the sort.

 

[NayborBear]

Men have freedom in their choices, meaning that their choices are free from necessity (geometrická nutnost) as from coercion (nátlak).

There are not just two options - God leaving us to choose randomly without his direction vs God forcing us.

An example with a dog. I can guide a dog to go to a directon I want, using my grace given to him (bowl of meat), but I am NOT forcing him. Even though I am not forcing him, I can make it absolutely certain that his free will will lead him that way.

In this way, the certainity of predetermination and the freedom of the will (the freedom of choosing) can work together without any biblical or logical problem.

And thats why some old theologians taught that God does not force, but only inclines and permits. Our choices are caused but not forced.

You can read it expressed more formally there:
https://www.skidmore.edu/~ljorgens/teachres/Theodicy Packet.pdf

Causa Dei, page 65, articles 102 and next.

THERE! You have just stated a "vetting process", I have come to call reverse osmosis, in my own personal spiritual journeyings. (fyi-I have no idea as to your referencing, or many other 50 center words used, as I consider such "word lawyerings", as just so much vanity, and trying to "baffle with BS") This "guiding", if you will, is done BY the Lord of the Harvest, when His angels "Plucks" one up, bad and good together, and delivers to the Lord of the Harvest. Your illustration of the "dog" aligns perfectly in principle, of that which He does!

Although, in Jesus' parable concerning the Lord of the Harvest, this "event", does not take place until the end of "the age?" It would seem, that this "event" IS taking place, in SOME, nonetheless!


Does this mean that Jesus is coming back soon? Can't say! Above my pay grade!

I do, however, take MUCH HOPE in the case of these "old theologians", that the "traditions of man", have made void, over the course of how many years, er centuries, mixed with Rev. 17:17; that that which is happening in me, with my spiritual journeyings, is NOT a "doctrine of demons", as "some" may accurse me of following. But, during the "course" of these events? It also seems a lot of my "experiences", align pretty close to Johnny Calvin. Coincidence? Is that saying that Johnny Calvin has this thing down pat? God FORBID! YET? As "Calvin bashers" run ammuck, in their denyings? It would certainly appear it is hitting SOMEONE'S nerves! Doesn't it?

Or, perhaps this is merely "God's LATEST installment", in his Loving Kindness TOWARDS His children, in His "pleaing's", "There is MORE "to ME", then "MILK!!" As His "words" are YET to be fulfilled!

 

[preacher4truth]

God makes his elect willing. Psalm 110:1-3.

 

[trofimus]

THERE! You have just stated a "vetting process", I have come to call reverse osmosis, in my own personal spiritual journeyings. (fyi-I have no idea as to your referencing, or many other 50 center words used, as I consider such "word lawyerings", as just so much vanity, and trying to "baffle with BS") This "guiding", if you will, is done BY the Lord of the Harvest, when His angels "Plucks" one up, bad and good together, and delivers to the Lord of the Harvest. Your illustration of the "dog" aligns perfectly in principle, of that which He does!

Although, in Jesus' parable concerning the Lord of the Harvest, this "event", does not take place until the end of "the age?" It would seem, that this "event" IS taking place, in SOME, nonetheless!


Does this mean that Jesus is coming back soon? Can't say! Above my pay grade!

I do, however, take MUCH HOPE in the case of these "old theologians", that the "traditions of man", have made void, over the course of how many years, er centuries, mixed with Rev. 17:17; that that which is happening in me, with my spiritual journeyings, is NOT a "doctrine of demons", as "some" may accurse me of following. But, during the "course" of these events? It also seems a lot of my "experiences", align pretty close to Johnny Calvin. Coincidence? Is that saying that Johnny Calvin has this thing down pat? God FORBID! YET? As "Calvin bashers" run ammuck, in their denyings? It would certainly appear it is hitting SOMEONE'S nerves! Doesn't it?

Or, perhaps this is merely "God's LATEST installment", in his Loving Kindness TOWARDS His children, in His "pleaing's", "There is MORE "to ME", then "MILK!!" As His "words" are YET to be fulfilled!

.... ....

 

[Nehemiah6]

BUT, he does not do this for each and every person ever born. He chooses whom he wills to choose, he is totally free in his will, his election is Sovereign.

If God were choosing men for salvation, He would choose the entire human race. Therefore this false notion of so-called *unconditional election* is TOTALLY BOGUS.

1 TIMOTHY 2
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions,and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

God's Word is crystal clear: Christ gave Himself a ransom FOR ALL, since God will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Hence prayers are to be made for ALL MEN.