Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine
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E
I believe IN GOD (His provisions)
What do you think the OT believers believed, that God would provide a way,
He promised it in Gen 13 through the seed, Then to abraham, through the seed. They may not have known How. But they trusted God would. David proved this once again, when he said sacrifice and burnt offering you did not desire. He Knew that was not the way to true atonement,
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They believed in God and His provisions? I believe in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. That is THE only way unto eternal salvation. Are you saying they were saved another way? That God would provide? That's not the same thing as the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The gospel is specific.
If they were saved like you and I, why weren't they in heaven upon death?
If they were saved like you and I, why weren't they in heaven upon death?
John,
@eternally-gratefull makes a great point in post no. 814.
I mean, we could sit here and argue a word all day long...
The fact is this...those of the O.T. were saved by following the laws of God.
Those of the N.T. are saved by following the laws of God.
But, in each case, there's another element necessary: Faith.
In the O.T. persons were judged by their own righteousness (not self-righteousness), they were required to keep many laws, both the 10 commandments and other laws,,,such as purification, dietary, etc.
So those that had faith in God and loved God and wanted to please Him, followed the laws as best they could. But the other elements had to be present too: faith, love, pleasing God.
If someone just followed the laws but had no faith or love for God, they were most probably not going to heaven... Wasn't Jesus mad at the Pharisees for this reason? They externally followed the law, but they did not love God, they were blind to His love.
Your right as to why Jesus died for us....to remove the sting of death,,,to release us from satan's grip,,,to free those that were awaiting in Abraham's Bossom.
BTW, Abraham's Bossom was not heaven, but they were in the presence of God awaiting to go to heaven...I should say the comfort of God.
Jesus death made this possible.
I just don't think it's right to say that those of the O.T. were saved by following the commandments and end it there.
Abraham was saved because he had FAITH in God when God told him to leave Ur.
He also OBEYED God...both elements are necessary.
@eternally-gratefull makes a great point in post no. 814.
I mean, we could sit here and argue a word all day long...
The fact is this...those of the O.T. were saved by following the laws of God.
Those of the N.T. are saved by following the laws of God.
But, in each case, there's another element necessary: Faith.
In the O.T. persons were judged by their own righteousness (not self-righteousness), they were required to keep many laws, both the 10 commandments and other laws,,,such as purification, dietary, etc.
So those that had faith in God and loved God and wanted to please Him, followed the laws as best they could. But the other elements had to be present too: faith, love, pleasing God.
If someone just followed the laws but had no faith or love for God, they were most probably not going to heaven... Wasn't Jesus mad at the Pharisees for this reason? They externally followed the law, but they did not love God, they were blind to His love.
Your right as to why Jesus died for us....to remove the sting of death,,,to release us from satan's grip,,,to free those that were awaiting in Abraham's Bossom.
BTW, Abraham's Bossom was not heaven, but they were in the presence of God awaiting to go to heaven...I should say the comfort of God.
Jesus death made this possible.
I just don't think it's right to say that those of the O.T. were saved by following the commandments and end it there.
Abraham was saved because he had FAITH in God when God told him to leave Ur.
He also OBEYED God...both elements are necessary.
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.Revelation 6:9-11
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23
You're saying the same thing I've been saying. If those OT saints did not have faith that obeying the law would please God, they were cut off. EG keeps saying that's it's simply faith with no works of obedience. That's just not true. You are correct, they live by their own individual faith. Faith requires evidence. Faith requires substance. The difference after the cross is we are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. No more works. The faith of Christ was shown in His obedience unto death, even the death of the cross.
I also agree, Abraham's bosom was not heaven. It was located in the lower parts of the earth.
I also agree, Abraham's bosom was not heaven. It was located in the lower parts of the earth.
E
Dude will you please stop trying to read my mind, and tell people what I am saying.
YOUR WRONG, EG HAS NEVER SAID THIS, nor has EG EVER INSINUATED THIS. In fact NO PERSON I have ever met says this is true. NO ONE!
Forgive me fore yelling, but I get sick of this nonsense of people assuming they know what everyone believes, and never listening!!
You people who think you know what everyone believes are getting to be for the birds. Stop trying to assume you know and for once in your time in CC can you just listen?
If you have faith in a person YOU WILL IN TRUST AT LEAST TRY TO DO WHAT THEY SAY, When you take steps of faith, and realise how much better it is to do Gods will. YOU DO IT MORE AS YOUR FAITH GROWS.
People who NEVER do what the person they CLAIM to have faith in asks. NEVER HAD FAITH IN THAT PERSON.
Abraham had faith, He did all those works which showed his faith was real. In the mean time, he also commited some prety deep sins.
David had faith, He slew Goliath and with the help of god won many victories.. He aslo commited many grave sins.
Acts of obedience has never sved on person. FAITH HAS ALWAYS SAVED A PERSON.
A persons WORKS are a RESULT of their salvation, Be it in the OT or the NT. No work a person has ever done caused God to forgive one sin.
Anyone who is discussing the gspel and how one is saved should NEVER talk about works. Works are not part of the equation, be it works of the law or works of faith or any work.
We are saved by Grace THROUGH faith, They were saved by GRACE through FAITH.
No one at any time has ever been saved by any other mean, PERIOD.
YOUR WRONG, EG HAS NEVER SAID THIS, nor has EG EVER INSINUATED THIS. In fact NO PERSON I have ever met says this is true. NO ONE!
Forgive me fore yelling, but I get sick of this nonsense of people assuming they know what everyone believes, and never listening!!
You people who think you know what everyone believes are getting to be for the birds. Stop trying to assume you know and for once in your time in CC can you just listen?
If you have faith in a person YOU WILL IN TRUST AT LEAST TRY TO DO WHAT THEY SAY, When you take steps of faith, and realise how much better it is to do Gods will. YOU DO IT MORE AS YOUR FAITH GROWS.
People who NEVER do what the person they CLAIM to have faith in asks. NEVER HAD FAITH IN THAT PERSON.
Abraham had faith, He did all those works which showed his faith was real. In the mean time, he also commited some prety deep sins.
David had faith, He slew Goliath and with the help of god won many victories.. He aslo commited many grave sins.
Acts of obedience has never sved on person. FAITH HAS ALWAYS SAVED A PERSON.
A persons WORKS are a RESULT of their salvation, Be it in the OT or the NT. No work a person has ever done caused God to forgive one sin.
Anyone who is discussing the gspel and how one is saved should NEVER talk about works. Works are not part of the equation, be it works of the law or works of faith or any work.
We are saved by Grace THROUGH faith, They were saved by GRACE through FAITH.
No one at any time has ever been saved by any other mean, PERIOD.
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I still think we differ a bit. I apologize if I'm wrong. I love the discussion. I'm actually in a cancer center getting treatment. These discussions go a long way in allowing me to feel normal again, if that makes sense.
Here's where I think we differ. I believe that after the cross, the believer in the gospel is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. No amount of works required, not before or after. All the work has been accomplished by Christ for justification. Some will go onto obedience, some may not. Discipleship has a big role.
In the OT, a person was justified by their own faith. The faith of Christ was not available until after the cross. Obedience played an important role in their justification.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. (the only righteousness available was self righteousness, the righteousness of God through Jesus was not available. If so, those OT saints would have been present with the Lord upon death.)
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came(you see, Christ's faith was not available), we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Here's where I think we differ. I believe that after the cross, the believer in the gospel is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. No amount of works required, not before or after. All the work has been accomplished by Christ for justification. Some will go onto obedience, some may not. Discipleship has a big role.
In the OT, a person was justified by their own faith. The faith of Christ was not available until after the cross. Obedience played an important role in their justification.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. (the only righteousness available was self righteousness, the righteousness of God through Jesus was not available. If so, those OT saints would have been present with the Lord upon death.)
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came(you see, Christ's faith was not available), we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we we are no longer under a schoolmaster.