Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines
- Thread starter delirious
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
( Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2 Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2 Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2 Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
-------------------------------------
The above is the "2nd" coming which occurred during the 1st century AD while the man of sin was alive and being restrained (withholdeth) when Paul wrote to the Thessalonians.
The man of sin has not been sitting around for nearly 2000 years waiting to be "revealed".
2 Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2 Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2 Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2 Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
-------------------------------------
The above is the "2nd" coming which occurred during the 1st century AD while the man of sin was alive and being restrained (withholdeth) when Paul wrote to the Thessalonians.
The man of sin has not been sitting around for nearly 2000 years waiting to be "revealed".
^ Revelation 17:8b [in part]:
"when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet shall be."
That ^ , in addition to the wording in Daniel 7:20-21 (paralleling Rev13) and Daniel 7:25,27 (supplying a specific time period and its conclusion; also paralleling Rev13:5 / Rev12:14, where I believe verse 12 is showing the 1st "Woe [unto the earth]" i.e. mid-trib events [future]--compare the "a short time" phrasing used elsewhere in Scripture)
"when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet shall be."
That ^ , in addition to the wording in Daniel 7:20-21 (paralleling Rev13) and Daniel 7:25,27 (supplying a specific time period and its conclusion; also paralleling Rev13:5 / Rev12:14, where I believe verse 12 is showing the 1st "Woe [unto the earth]" i.e. mid-trib events [future]--compare the "a short time" phrasing used elsewhere in Scripture)
You are trying to equate the birth pangs of the Olivet Discourse with the arrival of the "Day of the Lord" because Paul mentions the "Day" in 1 Thess 5: 2 and in 1 Thess 5: 3 "labor pains upon a pregnant woman". Is this justified?
What does verse 3 also say? "SUDDEN destruction" comes upon them and verse 4 says, "But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief." So in both these verses it is described as "sudden" and a "Day". Doesn't look like a time period to me.
You also arbitrarily decided to make the first pang of the Olivet Discourse the beginning of the "Day" to fit your time period eschatology.
I don't see anywhere in the Olivet Discourse that it says the first birth pang is the beginning of the "Day".
I see a lot of dispensational assumptions in your eschatology. You must have the Day of the Lord lasting 1,000 years or your system falls apart. Is that really reasonable?
A Day that is always described in the Scriptures as darkness, and sudden destruction, and gloom, and it lasts 1,000 years?
You are not able to answer Job 14: 12 which states there is no physical resurrection until the heavens are no more.
John 12: 48, "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him. The word that I have spoken will judge him in the LAST DAY."
The Scripture makes it clear that the wicked are judged the same day the righteous are raised (John 6:39, 6:44, 6: 54). The Great White Throne judgment fits this perfectly as the heavens will be no more then.
Your only explanation for this is to try and say "The Day of the Lord" lasts 1,000 years. If you don't see the ridiculousness of that position then I don't know what to say.
The "Day of the Lord" is always described as gloominess and judgement but then you have 1,000 years of bliss in the middle and then more gloominess right at the end with Satan and his rebellion. Does that fit the description of the Day of the Lord ever in Scripture? No.
These are desperate attempt by the premillennialist to keep their eschatology on life support.
Now you are ignoring what I'd previously put, about how a "Day" ["the Day of the Lord" / "IN THAT DAY"] in prophetic descriptions always STARTS "at DARK"... but it doesn't STAY THERE.
(It also describes the more positive aspects of that "Day," i.e. it finishes its course...)"The Day of the Lord / IN THAT DAY" [dark, then daylight/daytime] consists of ALL THREE of the following:
1) the 70th Wk / 7-yrs "IN THE NIGHT" aspect upon the earth (the "DARK" portion, at its ARRIVAL [THIS portion is when "the man of sin" also ARRIVES/presence of/"be revealed"]);
2) Christ's Second Coming to the earth (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" portion); AND
3) His 1000-yr reign on/over the earth (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" portion; note how Rev19:19/16:14-16/20 parallels Isa24:21-22[23], i.e. #'s 2-3 here)
(it is always EARTHLY-LOCATED and ARRIVES when the man of sin's "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" does)
So that the negative description of what some people will believe in/during that time period (2Th2:10-12) is contrasted with what others of that same time period (the "DARK" portion of "the Day of the Lord/IN THAT DAY") will come to believe, which is described in more positive light, in 2Th1:10b--which I believe shows clearly that it is NOT speaking of a singular 24-hr day, but a time period of some duration [the 7-yrs, parallel to Dan9:27(26)]
... and Jesus is still present there at end of the MK (no lightbulbs have gone out, at that point! Hello!)
(no lightbulbs have gone out, at that point! Hello!)
... and Jesus is still present there at end of the MK
Where Jesus is present it can only be wonderful.
It is getting pretty late for me and I will be going to bed soon. Although we don't agree on much, I have enjoyed our conversation! God bless you and take care.
Some doctrines never gain traction due to being impossible.
The op has no traction. It is AUTOMATICALLY off the table.
The op has no traction. It is AUTOMATICALLY off the table.
No,the strongest evidence is that there is a rapture,and we are comanded to watch and be ready.
So ....NO OTHER POSITION..has any business seriously praying or doing that.
Jesus used prejudgement events,non apocolyptic settings,peacetime settings,involving the rapture.
All prejudgement.
None of the plagues/wrath have happened yet.
No flying scorpions
No fiery hailstones
No 1/3 of humans dying
No mark of the beast.
...and so forth.
I can answer.
After the second coming. Revelation 20:4-6.
And resurrected! Not raptured!
My doctrine is impossible? Could you tell me how from Scripture? All you made was an EMOTIONAL argument for the rapture.
I showed from my original post using Scritpure that a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is impossible. I'm waiting for you to actually refute what I said with the Scriptures I used.
Job 14: 12 says, "Man lies down and does not rise again until the heavens are no more." My eschatology fits that perfectly. Yours does not. You have people being raptured while there is still a heavens. You are contradicting Scripture.
Right. And Daniel 12:13 (Daniel was told he would "rest [in death] and STAND IN THY LOT [be resurrected to stand again on the earth] at the END OF THE DAYS [the end of the days referred to in that context/chpt, vv.6-7,1]".)
They will be "resurrected" [to stand again on the earth; they were not promised "Rapture"]
The Rapture pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" [Eph1:20-23 "when"], not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints.
This is an error premillennialists make when they interpret the book of Revelation. They insist on a literal hermeneutic when the first verse of the book tells you don't interpret it literally.
Rev 1: 1, "...and He sent and SIGNIFIED it by His angel to His servant John." That word for "signified", in the newer translations it might say "communicated", is the Greek word for "signs and symbols". Revelation is not to be primarily interpreted literally. It is a symbolic book.
The scorpions, hailstones, plagues, mark of the beast... are not what you think they are. They are not literal but have symbolic meaning that goes back to the Old Testament. If you look in the Old Testament and Revelation itself you will find out what they mean.
There is no pre-trib "rapture". Everybody, both the just and unjust, are raised on the LAST DAY which is the Great White Throne judgment.
John 6: 44, "No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him and I will raise him up on the LAST DAY." This is the righteous.
John 12: 48, "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has the which judges him. The word I have spoken will judge him in the LAST DAY. This is the wicked.
Both raised on the same day. The Rapture and Premillennialism are proven false by Scripture.
Job 14: 12, "Man lies down and does not rise until the heavens are no more." When are the heavens no more?
Rev 20; 11, "Then I saw a GREAT WHITE THRONE and Him who sat on it, from whose face the the HEAVEN AND EARTH FLED AWAY.
John 5: 28-29, "Do not marvel at this for the HOUR is coming in which ALL who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth. Those who have done good to the resurrection of life and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation."
It says HOUR and ALL. Everybody raised at the same time. The Great White Throne judgment.
...which reminds me of Colossians 2:16-17, "...which ARE [present tense, plural] A SHADOW [singular] of the things coming [plural; certainly/surely coming]."
And Revelation 10:7 states, "[@ seventh trumpet]… the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets." [the Matt22:7-then-8 SEQUENCE, and pertaining to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom stuff...]
As to the other issue [re: John 5], here's William Kelly's notes at the bottom of his commentary on John 5:
[quoting]
"108John 5:28 f. - The difference of time in the two judgments is recognised by Meyer and Beyschlag. An objection made that the two resurrections take place in the same hour is rebutted by verse 26, where the spiritual resurrection which has gone on for nearly two millenniums is also called an "hour." A resurrection of the wicked does not emerge so clearly from the Synoptic accounts. That there is to be no general contemporaneous resurrection was foreshadowed by Psalm 1:6 [perhaps Psalm 1:5??]: "The wicked shall not arise in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous." See LXX. and Vulgate (resurgent). The German critics no more apprehend the sense of qum there than English translators, who alike adhere to "stand." But cf. Matthew 12:41, where all assign to ἀναστήσονται, in the same form of words, its natural meaning. The usual idea is that the Old Testament uniformly predicates resurrection of the righteous alone, but the point is that they who have done good and those that have done evil will not rise together. Cf. Simcox on Revelation 20:6. The Pharisees supposed that only the righteous would live again (Josephus, "Antiquities," xviii. 14; 2 Macc. 6: 26; and other references in Bousset, "Religion of Judaism," p. 259)."
[end quoting; bold mine]
You are imposing your own meaning for your own mistaken interpretations. Please note:
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4591: σημαίνω ...equivalent to to make known: absolutely Revelation 1:1
That refutes your claim and also indicates that Revelation -- like every other book in the Bible -- must be taken in its plain literal sense, unless there is a valid reason to see a metaphor or a symbol.
This is pure CONJECTURE and false to boot.
This is a rejection of God's truth and total nonsense.
Had you studied this term carefully, Christ used "the last day" as a metaphor for a period of time which would extend for AT LEAST ONE THOUSAND YEARS. In Rev 20 we see the resurrection of the Tribulation Saints, followed by 1,000 years of the literal reign of Christ on earth. This is followed by the battle of Gog and Magog, which is then followed by the Great White Throne Judgment, at which we see the resurrection of the unrighteous and the wicked.
Quite the opposite. Scripture established the very important doctrine of the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church (which has always been imminent), and it is essential that the Church be removed from the earth prior to the rise of the Antichrist and all the judgments seen from Rev 6-19.
Full-preterism has a multitude of problems. Let me emphasize one of the worst:
Job 14: 12, "Man lies down and does not rise again till the heavens are no more."
You have people being resurrected when there is still a heavens in A.D. 70. When are people actually resurrected according to Scripture?
John 6: 44, "No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him and I will raise him up on the LAST DAY." This is the righteous.
John 12: 48, "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him. The word I have spoken will judge him in the LAST DAY. This is the wicked.
Clearly both the just and unjust are raised on the LAST DAY and judgment follows. The book of Acts confirms this.
Acts 24: 15, "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be A RESURRECTION of the dead, both of the just and unjust." The word in the Greek for "resurrection" is in the singular meaning only one, not multiple as the premill will claim. If that was true it should be plural in the Greek and would have been translated "resurrections".
How does the full preterist get around this? They claim that this "last day" is only the last day of the old covenant and national Israel at their destruction in A.D. 70. They will say the resurrection is only spiritual. Does Scripture support this?
No, it doesn't. We have already seen from Scripture everyone is raised the "last day".
How does the full-preterist answer this? Is there another "last day" and "resurrection" coming for people born after 70 A.D.? I don't find that anywhere in Scripture. So everyone born after 70 A.D. is just out of luck. This is absurd.
If the full-preterists claims there is also a "last day" for the church age that won't work either. Why?
Full-preterists claim that we are in the "new heavens and earth" right now. Rev 21: 4, "Says there is no more death in the new heavens and new earth. Why would a resurrection be needed if people don't die anymore? People are still dying in 2018.
These are just some of the absurdities of full-preterism.
Full-preterism cannot answer these questions, as well as many others, because the system is false.
Sure it can answer these questions - but you need to correctly identify the whore of Babylon for your "system" to work and then the rest will fall into place.