Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine
- Thread starter delirious
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
U
I see one...and it was the one where you stated the gb9 was not trustworthy and I disliked that statement.
I stand by the one I gave ....gb9 is very measured in his responses and I have always found him to have a reasonable approach.
btw....I still saw several that you have give, just sayin
fyi.... one can expect much disagreement when one sets forth an position that the sacrifice of the cross was insufficient to save completely and believers must add to the work of Christ Jesus.
This is completely antithetical to the entire New Covenant and the Good News of Christ Jesus!!
I stand by the one I gave ....gb9 is very measured in his responses and I have always found him to have a reasonable approach.
btw....I still saw several that you have give, just sayin
fyi.... one can expect much disagreement when one sets forth an position that the sacrifice of the cross was insufficient to save completely and believers must add to the work of Christ Jesus.
This is completely antithetical to the entire New Covenant and the Good News of Christ Jesus!!
-
2
- Show all
I see one...and it was the one where you stated the gb9 was not trustworthy and I disliked that statement.
I stand by the one I gave ....gb9 is very measured in his responses and I have always found him to have a reasonable approach.
btw....I still saw several that you have give, just sayin
fyi.... one can expect much disagreement when one sets forth an position that the sacrifice of the cross was insufficient to save completely and believers must add to the work of Christ Jesus.
This is completely antithetical to the entire New Covenant and the Good News of Christ Jesus!!
I stand by the one I gave ....gb9 is very measured in his responses and I have always found him to have a reasonable approach.
btw....I still saw several that you have give, just sayin
fyi.... one can expect much disagreement when one sets forth an position that the sacrifice of the cross was insufficient to save completely and believers must add to the work of Christ Jesus.
This is completely antithetical to the entire New Covenant and the Good News of Christ Jesus!!
I am being crucified by the OSAS gang for daring to say the only exception to eternal security is in the case of apostasy.
And in that case it is in God's hands to decide. There is NOTHING we can do to undo what God has done.
Tell me what page you saw Thumbs Down votes from me and I will undo them.
I fixed them right away. I thought I had undone them all.
The parable of the Unmerciful Servant
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. “The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’ “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.” Matthew 18:21-35
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. “The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’ “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.” Matthew 18:21-35
That is where you err, 1 John 2 is "for Christians who sin", as John specifically says "my little children" and then goes on to say "if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." John even points out that Jesus is the propitiation for our sins. Even later, a couple verses down (1 John 2:12), he says that "your sins are forgiven for His name's sake." None of this has to do with sin confession for forgiveness (as a habitual practice) but the reality of the remission of sins through the blood of Christ.
How could John say to people that their sins are forgiven if he doesn't know if they've confessed their sins or not? How could he even begin to make that statement?
John was correcting error, and this is why later on it says that some left "because they were not of us" and even says in another place that they were trying to be seduced. His example of a person claiming to be without sin (ever in their life) is not representative of believers in Christ making this statement, he even says that such a person is not of the truth and makes God out to be a liar. He then offers the remedy to such a person, who is not of the truth, who is making God out to be a liar, and that is to confess their sin. Which would be to admit that they have in fact sinned in their life, are not without sin (for all fall short of God's glory) and are in need of God's forgiveness (which is provided in Christ).
If you read 1 John 1, you'll also notice something interesting. John is inviting someone into the fellowship (1 John 1:3) that he has with the Father and Son. He is declaring something to them, and in verses one and two he is describing Jesus. An invitation to the fellowship he has with the Lord.
You'll find no mention of sin confession for forgiveness in the rest of the epistles (confession to God). Its not even mentioned once when you properly understand 1 John 1:9. It is recorded in the OT, with King David, Yet, we are in a new covenant and in this covenant there are truths that would make it redundant to ask for forgiveness (blood of Christ, Jesus as an atonement, propitiation, remission, Jesus as High Priest, covenant whereby God remembers our sins no more, etc).
I am glad that you place its importance under sanctification, and not justification. Yet that is the understanding many people propagate, that sin confession somehow maintains salvation. As I said, another gospel. It is in opposition to Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
How could John say to people that their sins are forgiven if he doesn't know if they've confessed their sins or not? How could he even begin to make that statement?
John was correcting error, and this is why later on it says that some left "because they were not of us" and even says in another place that they were trying to be seduced. His example of a person claiming to be without sin (ever in their life) is not representative of believers in Christ making this statement, he even says that such a person is not of the truth and makes God out to be a liar. He then offers the remedy to such a person, who is not of the truth, who is making God out to be a liar, and that is to confess their sin. Which would be to admit that they have in fact sinned in their life, are not without sin (for all fall short of God's glory) and are in need of God's forgiveness (which is provided in Christ).
If you read 1 John 1, you'll also notice something interesting. John is inviting someone into the fellowship (1 John 1:3) that he has with the Father and Son. He is declaring something to them, and in verses one and two he is describing Jesus. An invitation to the fellowship he has with the Lord.
You'll find no mention of sin confession for forgiveness in the rest of the epistles (confession to God). Its not even mentioned once when you properly understand 1 John 1:9. It is recorded in the OT, with King David, Yet, we are in a new covenant and in this covenant there are truths that would make it redundant to ask for forgiveness (blood of Christ, Jesus as an atonement, propitiation, remission, Jesus as High Priest, covenant whereby God remembers our sins no more, etc).
I am glad that you place its importance under sanctification, and not justification. Yet that is the understanding many people propagate, that sin confession somehow maintains salvation. As I said, another gospel. It is in opposition to Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
-
1
- Show all
(1 John 1:9) is for Christians who sin also. The purpose of the confession is to obtain forgiveness and know that Jesus is faithful and will forgive those sins. Again, this is for ones sanctification. Ones walk of salvation. It is not for obtaining eternal life. The daily confession of sins is no knew thing here. When the disciples asked Christ how to pray one of the stipulations He laid downs was, "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." (Matt. 6:12) This prayer is in view of a daily walk also. "Give us this day our daily bread" (Matt. 6:11)
So, in that daily walk with God, John says in order for you the Christian to have a full joy in the Lord, (1 John 1:4) we confess our daily sins and know that Jesus is faithful to forgive us those sins. He is not forgiving them to give you eternal life. He is forgiving them so that your walk with Him and joy in Him is not hindered. Which means also that if confession of sins on a daily basis is not done, then your joy in Him will be affected. And who is there that would argue against that?
Concerning (1 John 2:12) John is addressing every age of maturity in the Body of Christ. These are those who are in a walk with the Lord. Thus the 'little children' are those who have come to Christ and are obedient to (1 John 1:9) in confessing their daily sins, and keeping their fellowship with Him.
Confessing our sins is not redundant, as I have already said, it is not for the purpose of remitting our sins. That has been done. It is for the purpose of our walk of fellowship. That our joy may be full. And we can know that Jesus forgives us those sins we confess daily.
See (John 13:4-10). This is a good example of a daily washing or cleansing.
Quantrill
So, in that daily walk with God, John says in order for you the Christian to have a full joy in the Lord, (1 John 1:4) we confess our daily sins and know that Jesus is faithful to forgive us those sins. He is not forgiving them to give you eternal life. He is forgiving them so that your walk with Him and joy in Him is not hindered. Which means also that if confession of sins on a daily basis is not done, then your joy in Him will be affected. And who is there that would argue against that?
Concerning (1 John 2:12) John is addressing every age of maturity in the Body of Christ. These are those who are in a walk with the Lord. Thus the 'little children' are those who have come to Christ and are obedient to (1 John 1:9) in confessing their daily sins, and keeping their fellowship with Him.
Confessing our sins is not redundant, as I have already said, it is not for the purpose of remitting our sins. That has been done. It is for the purpose of our walk of fellowship. That our joy may be full. And we can know that Jesus forgives us those sins we confess daily.
See (John 13:4-10). This is a good example of a daily washing or cleansing.
Quantrill
Galatians 4:4-9 -
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
-
1
- Show all
“So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” (John 8:36)
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (Colossians 2:13-14)
The Son sets us free, so we are free indeed. What do you think He sets us free from?
Maybe the power satan had over us before?
That STOOD against us, NOT "STANDS" against us.
Baptism forgives all our previouis sins.
Being born again forgives all our previous sins.
John, the Apostle, must be believed and not our own opinion.
HE said that IF we sin, we have an advocate with the Father and our sins WILL BE forgiven.
You might want to check out what Jesus said too in John 20:23
He gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins. Why would Jesus do this if all our sin are already forgiven and it's not necessary to ask forgiveness??
Let's just do what John said to do.
Hey D,
Why would I refuse something that is spiritually sound?
What I think is that we might be getting works mixed in with eternal security.
Maybe you don't believe in works (the same way I do) because you believe we could never lose our salvation -- no matter what.
Sure. This is why you say works don't KEEP us saved...because you believe in eternal security.
Of course, this would be a different discussion.
Why would I refuse something that is spiritually sound?
What I think is that we might be getting works mixed in with eternal security.
Maybe you don't believe in works (the same way I do) because you believe we could never lose our salvation -- no matter what.
Sure. This is why you say works don't KEEP us saved...because you believe in eternal security.
Of course, this would be a different discussion.
The above is confusing.
If you BELIEVE I can rescue you, don't you let me rescue you?
If you let me rescue you, doesn't it mean you have faith in me?
Faith is a noun. Something we have that is given by God as a gift (if we want it).
Believe is a verb.
When we believe in God, it activates that faith, for instance in allowing us to submit to His will for us.
Would you agree?
If you BELIEVE I can rescue you, don't you let me rescue you?
If you let me rescue you, doesn't it mean you have faith in me?
Faith is a noun. Something we have that is given by God as a gift (if we want it).
Believe is a verb.
When we believe in God, it activates that faith, for instance in allowing us to submit to His will for us.
Would you agree?
E
Nope.
Does not produce fruit
Does not mean hell. If it does Jesus contradicts himself. And he can not keep his own promise.
I wish yu who think you can lose salvation would see you are mocking God ay8ing he is unable to keep his promises. One which is that he hld us in his hands, and NO ONE ( we are someone) can snatch us.
If you think you can snatch yourself from Jesus hads, again, I think you do not Know who and what God is.
You asked God to do something in faith when he saved you.. He will keep that promise.
Does not produce fruit
Does not mean hell. If it does Jesus contradicts himself. And he can not keep his own promise.
I wish yu who think you can lose salvation would see you are mocking God ay8ing he is unable to keep his promises. One which is that he hld us in his hands, and NO ONE ( we are someone) can snatch us.
If you think you can snatch yourself from Jesus hads, again, I think you do not Know who and what God is.
You asked God to do something in faith when he saved you.. He will keep that promise.
-
1
- Show all
E
No. Many people believe in jesus, but they have no faith in jesus at all. We saw it in the jews. We see it in many so called churches today.
They have mental agreement that Jesus is who he says he was, He died on the cross. And he was ressurected.
But when it comes to having faith (faith is a word which your correct is a noun, It has with it the form of someone you TRUST, Someone you have ASSURANCE IN, someone you have coviction in. Believe in its basic form just means you agree, but you can agree with somene yet not be convicted, or be assured of have faith in them
There are many examples of this, One example shared with me a long time ago may help you.
A man runs a tightrope across the niagra falls from the american to the canadian side. He takes a wheelbarrow and puts 200 pounds worth of rock in it (the weight of a man) and walks across the rope numerous times, He gets a crowd and they are amazed at his bravery and what he is doing. He keeps asking the crowd if they believe he could take a man across in the wheelbarrow. Every time everyone raises their hand. Finally he stops. And asks for volunteers. No one raises their hands.
Why is this? They all claim they believe he can do it and he proved by what they have seen him do that he can, The problem is, If he fails it is instant death, No one is convicted, has assurance or has faith he can do it with THEM in place of the rocks.
Belief (noun) does not always equal faith (noun)
We saw this with the jews. Jesus healed the sick, The lame walked, the blind saw. He even rose a man from the dead. The believed in him, they welcomed him to jeruslam as king.
A week later they crucified him, why? They believed the things he did, but they were not convicted in what he said, they had no faith in him..
James gave us example in his epistle. People who CLAIM to have faith, but have no works. They are put in the same category of demons who also BELIEVE. But they are told their faith is dead (they have no faith. Just mental agreement or belief) and were asked, can this lack of faith (belief only) save you?
Just because someone says they beieve, does not mean they have faith.
They have mental agreement that Jesus is who he says he was, He died on the cross. And he was ressurected.
But when it comes to having faith (faith is a word which your correct is a noun, It has with it the form of someone you TRUST, Someone you have ASSURANCE IN, someone you have coviction in. Believe in its basic form just means you agree, but you can agree with somene yet not be convicted, or be assured of have faith in them
There are many examples of this, One example shared with me a long time ago may help you.
A man runs a tightrope across the niagra falls from the american to the canadian side. He takes a wheelbarrow and puts 200 pounds worth of rock in it (the weight of a man) and walks across the rope numerous times, He gets a crowd and they are amazed at his bravery and what he is doing. He keeps asking the crowd if they believe he could take a man across in the wheelbarrow. Every time everyone raises their hand. Finally he stops. And asks for volunteers. No one raises their hands.
Why is this? They all claim they believe he can do it and he proved by what they have seen him do that he can, The problem is, If he fails it is instant death, No one is convicted, has assurance or has faith he can do it with THEM in place of the rocks.
Belief (noun) does not always equal faith (noun)
We saw this with the jews. Jesus healed the sick, The lame walked, the blind saw. He even rose a man from the dead. The believed in him, they welcomed him to jeruslam as king.
A week later they crucified him, why? They believed the things he did, but they were not convicted in what he said, they had no faith in him..
James gave us example in his epistle. People who CLAIM to have faith, but have no works. They are put in the same category of demons who also BELIEVE. But they are told their faith is dead (they have no faith. Just mental agreement or belief) and were asked, can this lack of faith (belief only) save you?
Just because someone says they beieve, does not mean they have faith.
-
2
- Show all
This is only one of several. (John 15:5-6) Shall I drag you through all of them?
The point of all this is that there are indeed seeming contradictions to consider.
Next up, the Parable of the Talents. Here's the conclusion.
Question: To what place does the Bible attribute "weeping and gnashing of teeth"? (hell)
Matthew 25:28-30
“‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
The point of all this is that there are indeed seeming contradictions to consider.
Next up, the Parable of the Talents. Here's the conclusion.
Question: To what place does the Bible attribute "weeping and gnashing of teeth"? (hell)
Matthew 25:28-30
“‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
E
That would make yu sinless.
Are you claiming your sinless? If so. Then I can move on. If not. Then you can not keep your own standard.
Repent meand to change mind yes. But I do not think the topic of what we change our view on is in your mind..
I will give you and example using your own
As a non believer, I enjoyed sex with many women, When I repent, I admit that it is wrong, and it is damaging, not only to me but them, and God knows what is best.
However, I am week, and am tempted and fal.. It does not mean I changed my mind again and no longer believe God was right, it is that I allowed my flesh to win.
I do not need to repent again, Because I never stopped believeing it was wrong.
Ths goes for ANY SIN.
Are you claiming your sinless? If so. Then I can move on. If not. Then you can not keep your own standard.
Repent meand to change mind yes. But I do not think the topic of what we change our view on is in your mind..
I will give you and example using your own
As a non believer, I enjoyed sex with many women, When I repent, I admit that it is wrong, and it is damaging, not only to me but them, and God knows what is best.
However, I am week, and am tempted and fal.. It does not mean I changed my mind again and no longer believe God was right, it is that I allowed my flesh to win.
I do not need to repent again, Because I never stopped believeing it was wrong.
Ths goes for ANY SIN.
There are many people who believe "mental assent" that Jesus is the Son of God and that his death, burial and resurrection "happened" yet they are not trusting in the death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and instead turn to supplements and are trusting in works for salvation.
Yes, the word translated faith is the Greek word "pistis" which means persuasion, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; trust, confidence.
The word translated believe is from the greek word "pisteuō" which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).
*The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31.
Amen! In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.
*So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.
James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God." but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
Yes, the word translated faith is the Greek word "pistis" which means persuasion, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; trust, confidence.
The word translated believe is from the greek word "pisteuō" which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).
*The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31.
Amen! In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.
*So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.
James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God." but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
-
3
- Show all