Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine
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The only infallible part of the Bible is the original languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, and koine Judeo Greek. Here is an expert on the subject of koine Judeo Greek.
The Original Language of New Testament
By Dr. Eli Lizorkin-Eyzenberg
February 21, 2018
The original text of the documents we have come to know as the New Testament was written by Christ-following Jews (in the ancient sense of the word) in a language that can best be described, not simply as Koine (or Common) Greek, but as “Koine Judeo-Greek.”
First of all, what is Koine Greek? Koine Greek (which is different from Classical Greek) was the common, multi-regional form of Greek spoken and written during Hellenistic and Roman antiquity. However, I do not think that the language we see in the New Testament can be described ONLY as Koine Greek. There are elements of the Koine Greek used in the New Testament that emphasize its significant connection to Hebrew and first-century Jewish culture. I prefer to call it “Judeo-Greek” (or Koine Judeo-Greek).
What is Judeo-Greek? Judeo Greek is simply a specialized form of Greek used by Jews to communicate. This form of Greek retained many words, phrases, grammatical structures, and patterns of thought characteristic of the Hebrew language. We have similar examples in other languages: the well-known Judeo-German (Yiddish), Judeo-Spanish (Ladino), and the less familiar Judeo-Farsi, Judeo-Arabic, Judeo-Italian, and Judean-Georgian languages.
So is Judeo-Greek really Greek? Yes, but it is Greek that inherited the patterns of Semitic thought and expression. In this way, it differs from the forms of Greek used by other people groups.
I disagree that the New Testament was first written in Hebrew and then later translated into Greek.
Instead, I think it was written in Greek by people who thought “Jewishly.” More importantly, the authors of the New Testament thought multi-lingually. People who speak a variety of languages also manage to think in a variety of languages. When they do speak, however, they regularly import into that language something that comes from another. It is never a question of “if,” but only of, “how much.”
We must remember that the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible (commonly called the Septuagint) was translated into Greek by leading Jewish scholars of the day. Legend has it that each of the 70 individual Jewish sages made separate translations of the Hebrew Bible and when they were completed, all of them matched perfectly. As I said, “it is a legend.” The number 70 is likely symbolic of the 70 nations of the world in ancient Judaism. This translation was not only meant for Greek-speaking Jews, but also for non-Jews so that they too could have access to the Hebrew Bible. You can imagine how many Hebraic words, phrases, and patterns of thought are present on every page of the Septuagint, even though it is written in Greek. So aside from the authors of the New Testament thinking Jewishly and Hebraically, we also have the majority of their Old Testament quotations coming from another Jewish-authored, Greek-language document – the Septuagint. Is it surprising that the New Testament is full of Hebraic forms expressed in Greek?!
The Original Language of New Testament
By Dr. Eli Lizorkin-Eyzenberg
February 21, 2018
The original text of the documents we have come to know as the New Testament was written by Christ-following Jews (in the ancient sense of the word) in a language that can best be described, not simply as Koine (or Common) Greek, but as “Koine Judeo-Greek.”
First of all, what is Koine Greek? Koine Greek (which is different from Classical Greek) was the common, multi-regional form of Greek spoken and written during Hellenistic and Roman antiquity. However, I do not think that the language we see in the New Testament can be described ONLY as Koine Greek. There are elements of the Koine Greek used in the New Testament that emphasize its significant connection to Hebrew and first-century Jewish culture. I prefer to call it “Judeo-Greek” (or Koine Judeo-Greek).
What is Judeo-Greek? Judeo Greek is simply a specialized form of Greek used by Jews to communicate. This form of Greek retained many words, phrases, grammatical structures, and patterns of thought characteristic of the Hebrew language. We have similar examples in other languages: the well-known Judeo-German (Yiddish), Judeo-Spanish (Ladino), and the less familiar Judeo-Farsi, Judeo-Arabic, Judeo-Italian, and Judean-Georgian languages.
So is Judeo-Greek really Greek? Yes, but it is Greek that inherited the patterns of Semitic thought and expression. In this way, it differs from the forms of Greek used by other people groups.
I disagree that the New Testament was first written in Hebrew and then later translated into Greek.
Instead, I think it was written in Greek by people who thought “Jewishly.” More importantly, the authors of the New Testament thought multi-lingually. People who speak a variety of languages also manage to think in a variety of languages. When they do speak, however, they regularly import into that language something that comes from another. It is never a question of “if,” but only of, “how much.”
We must remember that the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible (commonly called the Septuagint) was translated into Greek by leading Jewish scholars of the day. Legend has it that each of the 70 individual Jewish sages made separate translations of the Hebrew Bible and when they were completed, all of them matched perfectly. As I said, “it is a legend.” The number 70 is likely symbolic of the 70 nations of the world in ancient Judaism. This translation was not only meant for Greek-speaking Jews, but also for non-Jews so that they too could have access to the Hebrew Bible. You can imagine how many Hebraic words, phrases, and patterns of thought are present on every page of the Septuagint, even though it is written in Greek. So aside from the authors of the New Testament thinking Jewishly and Hebraically, we also have the majority of their Old Testament quotations coming from another Jewish-authored, Greek-language document – the Septuagint. Is it surprising that the New Testament is full of Hebraic forms expressed in Greek?!
How did you come to that conclusion?
Let's look at the scripture in question.
John 15:5-6
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
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Jesus says: "If you do not remain in me...
you are like a branch...
you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers...
such branches (you who do not remain in me) …
such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
Are you claiming that this is not an analogy of those being cast into hell?
Let's look at the scripture in question.
John 15:5-6
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus says: "If you do not remain in me...
you are like a branch...
you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers...
such branches (you who do not remain in me) …
such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
Are you claiming that this is not an analogy of those being cast into hell?
I think you pass because he posted actual quotes from the early church, BEFORE AUgustine, and fact is, they didnt believe in OSAS: That doesnt make it true, but they just didnt believe it, and you made the false claim that they did.
Granted this is because you are a calvinist and your church history starts at Augustine vs Pelagius.
Two heretics battling it out.
The early church (before Augustine) believed in all sorts of stuff, including baptismal regeneration, replacement theology, that you can lose your salvation. ETC ETC.
Btw dont you hate it how they specifically spell out they believe in FREE WILL and argue against the PAGANS (and those gnostics, you know) who were saying its all predestinated anyway.
Not that anyone should care about church history for doctrine, but if you make statements, dont back out when proven wrong.
Granted this is because you are a calvinist and your church history starts at Augustine vs Pelagius.
Two heretics battling it out.
The early church (before Augustine) believed in all sorts of stuff, including baptismal regeneration, replacement theology, that you can lose your salvation. ETC ETC.
Btw dont you hate it how they specifically spell out they believe in FREE WILL and argue against the PAGANS (and those gnostics, you know) who were saying its all predestinated anyway.
Not that anyone should care about church history for doctrine, but if you make statements, dont back out when proven wrong.
Proverbs 15:1 - A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
I have certainly lived and learned from this Proverb.
I have certainly lived and learned from this Proverb.
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HAHAHHAHAHHAHA hilarious........if not for that pesky little book of Galatians.........Oh foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you....HAVING begun in the SPIRIT are you NOW MADE perfect by the flesh "WORKS"...
Fran, if tenacity could save, you would sit at the right hand of Jesus...haha
Fran, if tenacity could save, you would sit at the right hand of Jesus...haha
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You either didn't fully read the post, or are not being intellectually honest. A Christian, born again, forgiven by God through the blood of Christ doesn't seek forgiveness from God on a judicial standing. That confession is the initial repentance of a repentant sinner coming to Christ, a person who claims to be sinless is not of the truth and makes God out to be a liar. Hence, as the verse says, they must confess their sins (read as sinful state, again look at the Greek for confession; "to come in agreement with"). All fall short of the glory of God. This reveals our necessity for Christ.
You are misusing the verse to make a doctrine of sin confession for forgiveness for the believer, as a habitual process by which each individual sin is granted forgiveness based upon one's daily repentance. This is another gospel, a false gospel, for salvation comes through Christ and not sin confession.
When praying and 'fessing up to my sins I do apologize to the Lord, I may even throw in a "Sorry Lord, forgive me" but I quickly follow that by giving Him thanks for the forgiveness I have through His Son. You see, I am sorry that He being perfect and holy, has to deal with me and if/when I fall short of His perfect standard and consider His desire for us to walk in righteousness, I apologize because I believe He expects better of me. That He would tell me to repent, for example, means that I am able to.
I do not, however, believe that my sin confession grants me forgiveness, but rather is a means of transparency before the Lord. Having no door closed and locked, so that He may freely clean house and bring restoration and healing. It is a matter of sanctification, not justification.
You are misusing the verse to make a doctrine of sin confession for forgiveness for the believer, as a habitual process by which each individual sin is granted forgiveness based upon one's daily repentance. This is another gospel, a false gospel, for salvation comes through Christ and not sin confession.
When praying and 'fessing up to my sins I do apologize to the Lord, I may even throw in a "Sorry Lord, forgive me" but I quickly follow that by giving Him thanks for the forgiveness I have through His Son. You see, I am sorry that He being perfect and holy, has to deal with me and if/when I fall short of His perfect standard and consider His desire for us to walk in righteousness, I apologize because I believe He expects better of me. That He would tell me to repent, for example, means that I am able to.
I do not, however, believe that my sin confession grants me forgiveness, but rather is a means of transparency before the Lord. Having no door closed and locked, so that He may freely clean house and bring restoration and healing. It is a matter of sanctification, not justification.
Your thoughts @PennEd @dcontroversal @eternally-gratefull ?
I am curious if you guys agree with this assessment or see a flaw in the logic. To me it is so very clear, praise God, but am curious if some of you fellow believers have come to the same conclusion. You would agree sin confession (as a habitual practice of seeking forgiveness) has no say in the judicial standing of a believer before God?
I am curious if you guys agree with this assessment or see a flaw in the logic. To me it is so very clear, praise God, but am curious if some of you fellow believers have come to the same conclusion. You would agree sin confession (as a habitual practice of seeking forgiveness) has no say in the judicial standing of a believer before God?
Sounds Joseph Prince to me
I would feel TERRIBLE all the time if i dont confess my sins.
I put my stake on the epistle of John which says CONFESS! WRitten TO christian believers.
I will dig my heels in there.
I believe it would be no other than the devil who would want us to STOP confessing our sins to God, no?
I would feel TERRIBLE all the time if i dont confess my sins.
I put my stake on the epistle of John which says CONFESS! WRitten TO christian believers.
I will dig my heels in there.
I believe it would be no other than the devil who would want us to STOP confessing our sins to God, no?
HAHAHHAHAHHAHA hilarious........if not for that pesky little book of Galatians.........Oh foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you....HAVING begun in the SPIRIT are you NOW MADE perfect by the flesh "WORKS"...
Fran, if tenacity could save, you would sit at the right hand of Jesus...haha
Fran, if tenacity could save, you would sit at the right hand of Jesus...haha
Why do you always bring up the book of Galatians?
Paul is speaking here about the law of Moses...the works of the law.
613 of them. Do you think I'm trying to keep the law of Moses??
Paul is telling the Galatians that the way of works is not correct, that only faith saves.
That they shouldn't listen to those that were preaching works,,,which included circumcision.
verse 5:25 is very important to chapters 5 and 6.
"If we live by the spirit, let us also walk by the spirit"
If it's the spirit of God keeping us alive, then we should also walk in that spirit...
walk is an ongoing action...we WALK, we don't STOP walking...our good actions, or deeds, or works, must continue throughout our lives to reveive the reward in the end. The reward is heaven.
You always make it sound like it's a sin to do good works.
Hebrews 10:35-39
35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE,
HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH;
AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
Faith is a noun but can also be considered a verb...it has movement, it makes us move, it makes us WALK.
Yesterday I posted over 50 commandments left to us by Jesus...
Are these works?
No. They are proof of our faith.
Did I say to not confess our sins? No, I made a distinction between sin confession for transparency and sin confession for forgiveness. The latter is a falsehood because it, in essence, tramples underfoot the Son of God not attributing to Christ that which He has accomplished on our behalf (the forgiveness of sins).
It is as if His blood was common like the blood of bulls and goats, not able to fully take away sin as Hebrews speaks of. We know this is not the case though, since He did one sacrifice for all time, and then sat on the Father's right hand. He doesn't do daily sacrifice to deal with our present sins, like the priests of old, but instead, did one sacrifice (Himself) with an eternal priesthood.
How else do the lost get saved? His blood still applies today, in fact, how did you get forgiven? Through the blood of Christ. He has an eternal priesthood, a sacrifice that is everlasting because He is risen. He lives forever, interceding on our behalf. Any sin that you may commit is remitted through the blood of Christ.
I don't know why you keep bringing up Joseph Prince when I am bringing up scripture. Lets talk scripture, as that is our source for truth.
It is as if His blood was common like the blood of bulls and goats, not able to fully take away sin as Hebrews speaks of. We know this is not the case though, since He did one sacrifice for all time, and then sat on the Father's right hand. He doesn't do daily sacrifice to deal with our present sins, like the priests of old, but instead, did one sacrifice (Himself) with an eternal priesthood.
How else do the lost get saved? His blood still applies today, in fact, how did you get forgiven? Through the blood of Christ. He has an eternal priesthood, a sacrifice that is everlasting because He is risen. He lives forever, interceding on our behalf. Any sin that you may commit is remitted through the blood of Christ.
I don't know why you keep bringing up Joseph Prince when I am bringing up scripture. Lets talk scripture, as that is our source for truth.
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All our sins are forgiven because God does not live in time and He knows that we will sin even in the future.
However, that should not stop us from confessing our sins, as you've stated correctly.
When we sin we create an interruption between us and God -- our relationship.
I've never understood why it's necessary to debate what either Jesus or one of the writers clearly said to do. In this cases 1 John 1:9 and Jesus in John 20:23.
It's like being married....we should apologize when the spouse is feeling badly by something we've done...not because the marriage becomes null and void.
Also, we should love God enough to WANT to confess.
However, that should not stop us from confessing our sins, as you've stated correctly.
When we sin we create an interruption between us and God -- our relationship.
I've never understood why it's necessary to debate what either Jesus or one of the writers clearly said to do. In this cases 1 John 1:9 and Jesus in John 20:23.
It's like being married....we should apologize when the spouse is feeling badly by something we've done...not because the marriage becomes null and void.
Also, we should love God enough to WANT to confess.
It's a good thing to understand that many times the KJV translation into English has literally been bastardized. Since we know This Book of John was written in the Greek, I have the proper translation for it:
1 John 2
CLV(i) 1 My little children, these things am I writing to you that you may not be sinning. And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just."
Let's take a moment to understand this word ENTREATER here:
It means to ASK:
So, what John is actually saying here, if anyone should be sinning...WE HAVE SOMEONE TO ASK FOR FORGIVENESS OF OUR SINS.
So, John is not stating we never have to repent of our sins, but that if we do sin, WE HAVE SOMEONE TO GO TO CONCERNING OUR SINS BEFORE THE FATHER!!
Maybe you should get the correct translation before spouting off the bastardized English version!!
How could you debate what John is clearly saying?
1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
I understand all the points you're making and they're good points, but you're arguing against something one of the Apostles said.
Jesus' blood cleanses from all sin when it is acknowledged and confessed. Confessing it means we're sorry for it. This is why John says we have an advocate with the Father.
1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
I understand all the points you're making and they're good points, but you're arguing against something one of the Apostles said.
Jesus' blood cleanses from all sin when it is acknowledged and confessed. Confessing it means we're sorry for it. This is why John says we have an advocate with the Father.
Funny. You're telling someone else to get a correct translation when you don't even agree with what you wrote...
This is what you posted above:
So, what John is actually saying here, if anyone should be sinning...WE HAVE SOMEONE TO ASK FOR FORGIVENESS OF OUR SINS.
You even highlighted what it says!!
Please read it again.
IF we sin,,,we have SOMEONE TO ASK FORGIVENESS OF OUR SINS.
It's clearly stating that when we do sin, we should ask someone to forgive our sin.
This means that asking is necessary --
We really don't need the Greek, BTW, But since you used it, please read it.
This is what you posted above:
So, what John is actually saying here, if anyone should be sinning...WE HAVE SOMEONE TO ASK FOR FORGIVENESS OF OUR SINS.
You even highlighted what it says!!
Please read it again.
IF we sin,,,we have SOMEONE TO ASK FORGIVENESS OF OUR SINS.
It's clearly stating that when we do sin, we should ask someone to forgive our sin.
This means that asking is necessary --
We really don't need the Greek, BTW, But since you used it, please read it.