Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine

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Endoscopy said:
I suggest you are in error. I refer you to a list of verses on the subject of grace. Here is a pointer to this list of verses. It includes verses that grace is a FREE gift from God.

https://www.openbible.info/topics/grace
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Of course grace is a free gift of God, I never denied that.

You're not understanding what Free Grace Theology is. Why not look into what it is instead of assuming and offering a link full of given information? Slow down, re-read, investigate, think.
 
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Argueless said:
Do you mean that God has to continue in His kindness otherwise He will be cut-off?

Do you mean that God has to obey His commands for YOU?

Does God keep you in His power so He can serve YOU?

Did He not give you the POWER yet?

...But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” Acts 1:8

...Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits,to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,and to still another the interpretation of tongues.11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. 1 Corinthians 12:7-11

...As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2 Corinthians 6:1, Jude 1:4

...Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
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No, I mean exactly what I said.....HE BEGAN the WORK of FAITH, HE WILL FINISH IT, KEEP US BY HIS POWER, NEVER LEAVE US or FORSAKE US and we are saved to the UTTERMOST by the IRREVOCABLE GIFT of SALVATION/LIFE.................
 
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dcontroversal said:
No, I mean exactly what I said.....HE BEGAN the WORK of FAITH, HE WILL FINISH IT, KEEP US BY HIS POWER, NEVER LEAVE US or FORSAKE US and we are saved to the UTTERMOST by the IRREVOCABLE GIFT of SALVATION/LIFE.................
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I totally agree. Here is Jesus on the topic.

John 10 NIV. No one can snatch them out of My hand

22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
 
BenFTW said:
I am saying that remission, and forgiveness go hand in hand, which are tied up in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. That is what I am referring to as interchangeable. Even so, the Gospel itself is a message of reconciliation that happens as a result of Christ's sacrifice that grants us forgiveness/remission of sin.

1 John 1:9 is not about keeping a tally, or list, of sins that you then bring before the Father (seeking forgiveness). Look at the Greek for confession. It literally means to "come in agreement with", and contextually you'll see that in the previous verse (and following verse) it says that a person claiming to be sinless is not of the truth, calling God a liar. So, then, what an individual is doing is admitting that they have sin, are a sinner. This isn't about keeping short accounts with God, confessing one's individual sins, and seeking God's forgiveness or else.

This is like the law of polarity, hot and cold, on and off. Light and darkness. Saved and unsaved. A person claiming to be sinless, never having sinned in their life, is clearly not saved. They must confess their sins, or rather sinful state ("come in agreement with") in order to be forgiven ("he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness"). Evangelists are ministering on the streets and have a list of the ten commandments and question people whether they have broken any of the commandments, and every time the person confesses they have. They end up realizing they have sinned against a holy God, and are indeed a sinner in need of God's forgiveness. They come in agreement with God about their sin, and through the Gospel, see their need for Christ.

This is the way 1 John 1:9 should be understood, going to the Greek and looking at the context. Please notice in 1 John 1:2 there is another solution, in fact the only solution, to sin in the believer's life. Our Advocate with the Father, our High Priest. The propitiation for our sins. Jesus Christ, the righteous who shed His blood once for sin, for all time (Read Hebrews).

It doesn't even make sense to say sin confession grants forgiveness, when we have in 1 John 1 (and 2) three different methods of dealing with sin then. The first being walking in the light (1 John 1:7), the blood of Jesus Christ His Son will cleanse you of all sin, followed by this idea of sin confession for forgiveness (1 John 1:9; a misapplication of the verse) and then last but not least, Jesus as our propitiation for our sins and being our Advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1-2).

The first and last are united, in that walking in the light is not walking perfectly (sinlessness) but being in Christ (the polarity of darkness and light, see John 8:12). In fact, let me post the verse.

John 8:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

We are in the light that is Christ, who gives us eternal life, and being in Christ we are cleansed through His blood of all sin, and if we do sin, as 1 John 2 says, we have an Advocate with the Father (Jesus Christ, the righteous). The propitiation for our sins. Look even further in 1 John 2, and you'll see it stated even further about the reality of our sins being forgiven, saying "your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake" (1 John 2:12).

There is no sin in the believer's life that needs a seeking out of forgiveness from God because it would defeat the purpose of Christ being nailed to the cross, dying and resurrecting, and then His ministry as He ascended as our High Priest with His blood (being the sacrifice for sin).

Hebrews 9:23-28 King James Version (KJV)
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

By
Hebrews 10:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

He would've suffered since the foundation of the world if our sins, all of them, didn't get remitted because He is the sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 9:26). Any sin that we may commit is taken care of through the blood of Christ. This is covenant based (Hebrews 10:15-18). We are in the new covenant. Where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
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I suggest to you that you use a modern translation instead of the now flawed 400 year old KJV. English like all languages changes over time. Here are some issues with the KJV translation.

KJV Issues

https://ehrmanblog.org/problems-with-the-language-of-the-king-james-version/

https://newrepublic.com/article/107222/making-it-new

http://www.bibletexts.com/topics/kjv.htm

http://www.equip.org/article/is-your-modern-translation-corrupt/

http://www.hickoryhammockbaptist.org/kjva1.html

https://www.gotquestions.org/different-gospel.html

The Use and Misuse of the King James Bible: An Interview with Mark Ward
Jonathan Petersen
March 13, 2018

https://www.biblegateway.com/blog/2...pJobID=1362532267&spReportId=MTM2MjUzMjI2NwS2



Here are examples of the KJV problem.

KJV Issues
For example, because of the changes in the English language, a number of words occur in the King James that make zero sense to most people today. These include the following nuggets that you will find scattered here and there:

Almug
Algum
Charashim
Chode
Cracknels
Gat
Habergeon
Hosen
Kab
Ligure
Neesed
Nusings
Ouches
ring-straked
sycamyne
trow
wimples, ….

The King James translators also translated some animal names into animals that in fact we now have pretty good reason for thinking don’t actually exist:

unicorn (Deut. 33:17)
satyr (Isa 13:21);
dragon (Deut 32:33) (for serpent)
cockatrice (Isa 11:8),
arrowsnake (Gen 49:11, in the margin).

Moreover,, there are phrases that simply don’t make sense any more to modern readers: Phrases that no longer make sense:

ouches of gold (Exod. 28:11);
collops of fat (Job 15:25);
naughty figs (Jer 24:2);
ien with (Jer. 3:2);
the ground is chapt (Jer 14:4);
brazen wall” (Jer 15:20);
rentest thy face (Jer. 4:30);
urrain of the cattle (Exod. 9:2);

And there are whole sentences that are confusing at best, virtually indecipherable (or humorous)

And Jacob sod pottage (Gen 25:29)
And Mt. Sinai was altogether on a smoke (Exoc. 19:18)
Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing (Ps. 5:6)
I trow not (Luke 17:9)
We do you to wit of the grace of God (2 Cor. 8:1)
Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels (2 Cor. 6:12)
He who letteth will let (2 Thes 2:7)
The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd (Eccles. 12:11)


Other sentences make sense, but would today be considered somewhat problematic – at least for the sacred Scripture. My favorite is the one that refers to a man who: “Pisseth against the wall:…. 1 Sam 25:22, 34, I Kings 14:10!
 
Cee said:
This is spot on. Believe in the Greek is man's part. Faith is God breathed and in response to looking to Him. (Hebrews 12:2)

Belief calls it done, faith knows its done.

Here's the nail in the coffin of temporary security:

1 John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Faith is evidence we have overcome the world. And everyone born of God (thus saved) overcomes. The mere fact we have faith shows we've been given the victory.
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I am amazed at the number of people who say they believe God has saved them, yet you can tell by what they say they have no faith that God has completely saved them.
 
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Sketch said:
That's ridiculous.
Why would Jewish Christians, that's Christians, need to be convinced why Jesus was a much better way of salvation?
Doesn't the fact that they were Christians already answer that question? Seems so.
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I hope you did not think this lack of evidence was going to convince me

Put yourself in their shoes

Most had their properties taken, their families de-owed them, they were mocked, scorned, hated, considered outcasts. Even their best freinds would no longer talk to them. They lost everything they had. You do not think they needed encouraged that Christ was a more better way?

Start with the first chapter. You will see it..
 
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Sketch said:
What about the results?
In one scripture the believer was saved, but as through the flames with nothing to show.
In the other they had nothing to show and were thrown into hell.

John 15:5-6
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

1 Corinthians 3:14-15
If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
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Wrong.

Niether was cast into hell. The one was lifted up and the dirt was pruned and throwned into the flames. The same flames that burnt their wood hay and stubble..
 
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What's with the barrage of Thumbs Down? (20 in one day and counting)
Gang warfare on a Christian forum. I suppose it should be reported. (yes or no?)
 
Sketch said:
What's with the barrage of Thumbs Down? (20 in one day and counting)
Gang warfare on a Christian forum. I suppose it should be reported. (yes or no?)
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You've supplied a load of them yourself, and, have earned the ones given you. :)
 
Proverbs 15:1 - A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

I have certainly lived and learned from this Proverb. ;)
 
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Argueless said:
"Provided that you CONTINUE in His kindness."
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Please put that in the context of this statement by Jesus.

John 10 NIV. No one can snatch them out of My hand
22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
 
Endoscopy said:
I suggest to you that you use a modern translation instead of the now flawed 400 year old KJV. English like all languages changes over time. Here are some issues with the KJV translation.
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"Archaic and Inerrant" beats "Modernized and Wrong" any day of the week.

The King James Bible is NOT written in Old English. The period of Old English began around 450 A.D. The next period in the evolution and development of English is called Middle English. This period is dated between 1100-1500 A.D. Then began what is called Modern English.

Both the King James Bible and the works of Shakespeare are well within the time period of what is technically called Modern English. In 1611 the King James Version was “out of date” as it is today. The translators avoided the speech of their day for a basic English which would be simple, timeless and beautiful, and they succeeded.

The language of the Hebrew Bible, after all, is archaic, too; it is precisely this that makes us feel when reading the it that we are in contact with an age more wondrous and fervent than our own. The same holds true of the KJV. We should not want the Bible to sound modern. The Bible needs to be read against the norm of modern.

If a Christian REALLY believes the Bible is the infallible words of God, then the "old fashioned language" is not an issue at all. Sure, the King James Bible has some words that are older or have different meanings than we may be familiar with.

But people are learning new vocabulary or new meanings to English words all the time in any field of study, be it sports, biology, the sciences, mathematics, medicine or just about anything imaginable. If you are interested in something, you learn the meaning of the words that are found in this field of interest. Even when you start using the computer we have to learn some new words or different meanings to words we already knew - Words like "mouse", IPad, "Kindle", Office, Word, "paste".

Someday, with money as their love, a new version committee will come out with an emoji bible claiming it as the word of God.;)
 
Sketch said:
In Muslim countries, but I think they are still girls.
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That is a horrid mutilation of the female anatomy and causes them problems because of the protective sheath over the clitoris being removed. I have read statements by women who have had that done to them. In the male it removes a possible source of infection. I worked with a man that had that infection and he was very miserable and finally had himself circumcised.
 
John146 said:
"Archaic and Inerrant" beats "Modernized and Wrong" any day of the week.

The King James Bible is NOT written in Old English. The period of Old English began around 450 A.D. The next period in the evolution and development of English is called Middle English. This period is dated between 1100-1500 A.D. Then began what is called Modern English.

Both the King James Bible and the works of Shakespeare are well within the time period of what is technically called Modern English. In 1611 the King James Version was “out of date” as it is today. The translators avoided the speech of their day for a basic English which would be simple, timeless and beautiful, and they succeeded.

The language of the Hebrew Bible, after all, is archaic, too; it is precisely this that makes us feel when reading the it that we are in contact with an age more wondrous and fervent than our own. The same holds true of the KJV. We should not want the Bible to sound modern. The Bible needs to be read against the norm of modern.

If a Christian REALLY believes the Bible I 7s the infallible words of God, then the "old fashioned language" is not an issue at all. Sure, the King James Bible has some words that are older or have different meanings than we may be familiar with.

But people are learning new vocabulary or new meanings to English words all the time in any field of study, be it sports, biology, the sciences, mathematics, medicine or just about anything imaginable. If you are interested in something, you learn the meaning of the words that are found in this field of interest. Even when you start using the computer we have to learn some new words or different meanings to words we already knew - Words like "mouse", IPad, "Kindle", Office, Word, "paste".

Someday, with money as their love, a new version committee will come out with an emoji bible claiming it as the word of God.;)
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If you read my statement I never mentioned middle English which what Choucer wrote in. I tried to read the original Choucer and gave up very quickly. In point of fact it is the English of Shakespeare. Go read Shakespeare and you will miss much of his humor since jobs, words, and customs back then no longer exist in current language. Language is dynamic with words changing meaning, words drop out of use, and new words are added. At one point stink was a complement. Then smell took its place. Today if you want to complement a lady you have to say you smell nice. Leaving off the nice can get you slapped.

That is why the KJV has problems. It is why current translations should be used. I use NIV, ESV and AMPC. My Bible is my smartphone with biblegateway.com being a web page always in my Chrome browser. I look up book and chapter and with a click change translations easily. I of course stay in the English language. I looked at German once for fun. Didn't understand a Word.
 
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