Church is it even biblical

[presidente]

There has to be something more to the sign of the Lord coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, when the Lord is already here among us.
When you put all the other pieces of the puzzle together in which this is taking place (in Matthew 24; Luke 21, and Mark 13), where environmental chaos appears to have been ensuing, I then speculate the sign of the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, has to do with the Lord rectifying a lot of the detrimental environmental destruction man will have caused through industry.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I am curious. Do you believe the epistles and the book of Revelation are inspired, too? There are more passages on this than the ones you mention. In Acts, 3:21, we read that Jesus is in heaven until the time of restoration of all things. Paul wrote about the Lord returning. There are many references to it in his writings.

Christ sent His Spirit as a Comforter. We experience Christ now through the Spirit of Christ, but He is seated in heaven and will return again when it is time for the restoration of all things.

 

[presidente]

Anyone that is to teach or preach the word of God has to be appointed by God physically,

Paul saw a vision of Christ. What about Barnabas? Barnabas and Saul (Paul) were sent out to preach after prophets and teachers were gathered and the Spirit spoke to separate Barnabas and Saul to the work to which He had called them. God did not have to physically show up and appoint them to send them out. Timothy had a gift in him that was given through prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders. I Corinthians 12 teaches that the Spirit gives gifts as He wills, and lists various gifts, including prophecy. In Romans 12, we see that prophecy, teaching, and exhortation are given according to the grace given unto us, and we have different gifts. God can give gifts without thunderbolts and spectacular theophanies. Where do you get the idea that someone has to be 'appointed by God physically.

if people only think they are qualified, they are certainly going to preach falsehoods and doctrines that are not from God.

I just want to clarify. By your own standards, you do not think that God has physically appeared to you and qualified you to preach the doctrines you are promoting, do you?

Btw, do you believe that God is 'physical'?

If mission is to help other people, then it is a worthy course. The reason the church is divided today is because people have appointed themselves to be teachers.

Apollos gifts may not have come in a spectacular way, but Paul acknowledge him. Yet people divided over Apollos, himself, and Cephas even though they were legitimate ministers of the word of God.

 

[presidente]

I'm not saying that there was never a time to preach and evangelize, that time is long gone.

Do you think we should just let all the Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, etc. die in their sin?

 

[presidente]

I'm not a Greek or even an English speaker, but taking this argument in that direction is not helpful.I have never believed that knowing Greek would help anyone understand the bible.

If 1 Cor 15 was the only thing written about resurrection, then Greek/Grammar would suffice as an argument, but let's see what Paul said in other places and how he applied it on himself:

2 Cor 4:
11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

Q. If there's no resurrection, how was Paul's death beneficial to them?

Paul writes about the resurrection, but he also writes about the life of Christ at work at us, even now, while we are in our physical, mortal bodies, before being transformed or resurrected.

Paul wrote about death coming into the world through Adam in Romans 5. In Genesis, the day Adam ate of the tree, he was told that he would die. He did die. He had the breath of life in him, but he sinned, and he died. He lived for hundreds of years as a dead man-- he lost that life that he had originally had before he sinned.

Paul quoted Habakkuk who wrote, the just shall live by faith. Righteousness comes through faith. Life comes through faith in Christ. Those who were dead in their sins, repent, believe in Jesus, and are alive in Christ.

But their mortal bodies died, and one day, like Christ, they will rise again. This theme of life and death is found throughout the writings of Paul. Romans 8 addresses this issue, also. The Spirit of Him that raised Christ from the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies. This applies to the deadness in us, we who have sinned in past times. But it also looks forward to the resurrection. As Paul writes later in the chapter, we await the adoption, the redemption of our bodies.

2 Pet 1:12So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.

Q. If there's no resurrection, how was Peter's death beneficial to them?

I believe in the resurrection and I do not see how your question relates to the verses you quoted. Paul wanted to stay longer for the sake of his readers.

 

[presidente]

The Church is not the same as 'synogogue'. It cannot be called a synagogue.

Except in James 2:2, unless they were going to synagogues that weren't specifically Christian with their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[presidente]

At least you are coming to the realization that something is wrong. The only difference between me and you is that you are look-warm, i'm not. Things get worse because of defiance to the word of God. There's absolutely no reason to say some teachers are ok and some are not- everyone has failed because non was appointed by God.

Look more carefully at your Bible. Moses had a dramatic burning bush experience. Isaiah had a heavenly vision. The Lord spoke to Jeremiah. Maybe it was not as dramatic as an experience for the proverbial fly on the wall as Moses' experience would have been, but it must have left an impression on Jeremiah.

We do not know how Elijah was called, but what about Elisha? Elijah putting his mantle on him? Would he say he was directly called by God? Would he claim that God had 'physically' appeared to him and called him?

The Torah also shows us that priests and parents are to teach. Were they directly called by God? They could just read their role in the Bible, and they were supposed to faithfully follow it.

The New Testament commands the one who receives grace to teach to do so in Romans 12. It doesn't say he has to get struck by lightening or hear an audible voice from God.

The Bible shows some individuals being called in these dramatic ways, but there is plenty of evidence that others who were legitimate ministers of the word were not called in such dramatic ways. Your making up your own doctrine here.

Appointment by God is never a feeling or a dream or a theology class, it has always been physical and some people like Jonah & Moses even tried to escape from the appointment. And God Himself ordained a time when these appointments had to stop and that time was the ratification of the new covenant.

What is your understanding of this prophesy and when do you think it was to be:

Jer 31:
33“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”

declares the Lord.

Let's get this straight. You think believers and churches are all wrong because they have leaders, teachers, gifted individuals, etc.? But yet, the reason you believe this is because you believe a prophecy teaches that all people will know the Lord without human direction? If the people of God have all arrived at this condition, why would they be all wrong? Can't you see how your beliefs are self-contradictory? If these people aren't knowing the Lord without direction, then the prophecy has not been fulfilled, and we are back to having teachers, etc.

I do not believe this prophecy has been completely fulfilled. This is the direction we are moving in, where the New Covenant is leading us. When do you think they new covenant was 'ratified'? Why would it be more 'ratified' now than it was in the time of Peter or Paul? What we have now is the earnest, downpayment, and firstfruits of things to come. Those are terms used in the New Testament in relation to the Spirit. We are moving toward the situation described in the passage above. The author of Hebrews says 'that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.' The Lord Jesus is in heaven until the time of the restoration of all things as we see in Acts 3.

This idea you have that God cannot or will not appoint leaders in the church leads to error. In the Bible, we see that the Lord can reveal His will in the church through the Spirit. There are some principles that have been laid down, such as the qualifications for bishop/elders. The Spirit can also speak, for example through the gift of prophecy, regarding the ministry roles of individuals in the body of Christ like we see in Acts 13 or in I Timothy 4:14.

 

[preston39]

N...

You need to study scripture;

The reason we have so many wayward preachers today is because most parishioners have become lazy and do not study scripture....thus they know not when they are being miss led.

We see it here as it relates to new age religion teachings, OSAS, G-d will not judge after our physical death, no baptism necessary, super grace, etc., all of which is not biblical and did not exist prior to the 1960's.

They became acceptable when leaders in the church discovered they could deceive as they wished..which is one of the end times biblical warnings. The TV types are making millions every day...shame on the followers...G-d will hold you responsible for supporting such.

See;.....https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/8-richest-pastors-in-america.aspx

 

[preston39]

(timed out)....

The money is one thing but, many are teaching things that are not biblical and are miss leading many.

 

[Noose]

Paul writes about the resurrection, but he also writes about the life of Christ at work at us, even now, while we are in our physical, mortal bodies, before being transformed or resurrected.

Paul wrote about death coming into the world through Adam in Romans 5. In Genesis, the day Adam ate of the tree, he was told that he would die. He did die. He had the breath of life in him, but he sinned, and he died. He lived for hundreds of years as a dead man-- he lost that life that he had originally had before he sinned.

Paul quoted Habakkuk who wrote, the just shall live by faith. Righteousness comes through faith. Life comes through faith in Christ. Those who were dead in their sins, repent, believe in Jesus, and are alive in Christ.

But their mortal bodies died, and one day, like Christ, they will rise again. This theme of life and death is found throughout the writings of Paul. Romans 8 addresses this issue, also. The Spirit of Him that raised Christ from the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies. This applies to the deadness in us, we who have sinned in past times. But it also looks forward to the resurrection. As Paul writes later in the chapter, we await the adoption, the redemption of our bodies.

I believe in the resurrection and I do not see how your question relates to the verses you quoted. Paul wanted to stay longer for the sake of his readers.

How does Paul's death benefit his listeners? How is Paul's physical departure, good for them? What happens to them when Paul dies?

2 Cor 4:
11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

 

[Laish]

N...

You need to study scripture;

The reason we have so many wayward preachers today is because most parishioners have become lazy and do not study scripture....thus they know not when they are being miss led.

We see it here as it relates to new age religion teachings, OSAS, G-d will not judge after our physical death, no baptism necessary, super grace, etc., all of which is not biblical and did not exist prior to the 1960's.

They became acceptable when leaders in the church discovered they could deceive as they wished..which is one of the end times biblical warnings. The TV types are making millions every day...shame on the followers...G-d will hold you responsible for supporting such.

See;.....https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/8-richest-pastors-in-america.aspx

Out of what you said in bold above. What did not exist before the 1960 .
Blessings
Bill

 

[presidente]

How does Paul's death benefit his listeners? How is Paul's physical departure, good for them? What happens to them when Paul dies?

2 Cor 4:
11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

Okay, the reference to Paul makes more sense. Jesus talked about the one who follows him taking up his cross and following him. Paul said, "I die daily."

We sould look at some of the other verses here:

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

Paul writes of his sufferings for the sake of the gospel. Those who received his ministry were beneficiaries, receicing the life that comes through the Gospel through the fellowship with the sufferings of Christ he experienced as he endured these things to minister.

 

[Quantrill]

The quoted history of the word, synagogue, is from M Webster, so it is adviseable you take up your dispute with the company.

As for the "church" being the Body of Christ, as long as you refer to those member of His Body around the globe belonging to various denominations, you are close.

When the Father calls His children out of the great harlot, I believe He will be calling His children also out of her daughters, that will be the true Body of Christ. Church is jsut the evolution of a word meaning assembly which may be any denomination.

If you believe all of this is incorrect that is your decision, but from decades of study this is my determination in the sight of God.

No, I am not interested in the company of Webster. What is advisable is that you recognize that a synagogue is not representative of the Church of Chrsit. Playing with words doesn't always get you where you want to go.

Close doesn't count. Neither does your evaluation. The Church is all born-again believers.

In your dreams and imagination.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Yes he was made according to the flesh for a one demonstration of the unseen Spirit . His Spirit was not made or created.

I see that a little differently. Not a salvation issue .But to myself more of how can we hear Him who remains without form. The order of Melchizedek was a continual order without beginning or end.

God is supernatural without nature as a beginning. He is not, nor neither could he be a man as us having mother and father beginning of spirit life or end thereof.

When he left he made it clear that we know him no more after the things seen the temporal (2 Corinthians 5:16) We walk by faith after the eternal unseen .Flesh and blood which would include His in which he said could not profit will not bring another demonstration of the lamb of God who was slain before the foundation of the world.

The Son of man, Jesus our savior resisted worship in respect to his temporal flesh . Saying things like... if I not go not (disappear) the Holy Spirit will not come. And when called good teacher according to His flesh he would give glory to God unseen saying: "only God is good".

He refused to be called a daysman all the days of his life. A daysman, not a common term is used to represent a fleshly mediator as a infallible umpire that is set between God not seen and Man with permission from both parties . Boldly the Pope takes that upon his self.

Job chapter nine seems to give us some understanding .

For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.Job 9:32-33

Mathew chapter 7 also seems to support . Informing us just as we are to call no man father on earth, the same applies with teacher or Master .No man can serve two masters as teachers. The flesh and the Spirit . One is our Father in heaven just as one is our master or Rabbi . We can plant the seed and another water it with the doctrines of God. But God alone causes the increase if any . Again the promise to come in the flesh as a demonstration of the unseen Spirit was once.

I thin Acts supports that conclusion.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven

Or like the description in Revelation with the words clouds representing the unseen Spirit. Every eye of the believer heart will see him by faith as those given the privilege can to watch Just a Noah and his family that watched by faith(typified as watchers) . To those who have not ben give the privilege to watch he will come as a thief in the night sudden destruction will befall them. Typified as wailers.

Revelation 1:7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen

The point is that Jesus Christ was of human flesh. The same flesh of Adam and David.

The priestly order of Melchizedek was a true order. Melchizedek was a real person who was a type of Jesus Christ.

The supernatural introduced itself into the natural in the Person of Jesus Christ. God has no mother. God the Son being born into the human race and of the virgin Mary, had a mother. Jesus Christ the Man had a mother.

No, Jesus Christ made it clear that He was flesh and bone. You are big on the word 'demonstration' which means what?

Jesus Christ never resisted any worship toward Him as God.

Concening Job, you are talking about a time long before there was any 'daysman'. And Job wished for a 'daysman'. One who could touch both God and man. Thus we have Him in Jesus Christ.

If you're going to cite a Scripture, give the chapter and verse. Don't get lazy.

(Acts 1:11) doesn't support anything you said. (Rev. 1:7) doesn't support anything you said.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Except in James 2:2, unless they were going to synagogues that weren't specifically Christian with their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

A synagogue is just a building. The Church is the mystical Body of Jesus Christ. In the beginning the believers were mostly Jews who made up the Church. And they continued to meet in synagogues as they had a hard time letting go of the Mosaic Law that they had been in for so long.

Though some still met in the synogogues, that didn't make the church synonymous with the synagogue. The Church and the synagogue are not the same.

Quantrill

 

[luigi]

I am curious. Do you believe the epistles and the book of Revelation are inspired, too? There are more passages on this than the ones you mention. In Acts, 3:21, we read that Jesus is in heaven until the time of restoration of all things. Paul wrote about the Lord returning. There are many references to it in his writings.

Christ sent His Spirit as a Comforter. We experience Christ now through the Spirit of Christ, but He is seated in heaven and will return again when it is time for the restoration of all things.

Yes, I believe the Lord is seated at the right hand of the Omnipotent, until He makes His enemies His footstool.

 

[preston39]

Out of what you said in bold above. What did not exist before the 1960 .
Blessings
Bill

All of them.......per my research to date says.

 

[Laish]

All of them.......per my research to date says.

Ok so is preservation of the saints different than OSAS , in your understanding?
Blessings
Bill

 

[Noose]

Okay, the reference to Paul makes more sense. Jesus talked about the one who follows him taking up his cross and following him. Paul said, "I die daily."

We sould look at some of the other verses here:

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

Paul writes of his sufferings for the sake of the gospel. Those who received his ministry were beneficiaries, receicing the life that comes through the Gospel through the fellowship with the sufferings of Christ he experienced as he endured these things to minister.

You either fall short or are insincere because Paul is not merely talking about his suffering for the sake of the gospel, he is talking about his death and resurrection. This is Paul's version similar to what Jesus told the disciples that it was good for them that He (Jesus) goes so that the spirit of truth would come to them, if He doesn't, the spirit of truth wouldn't come. In the same sense, Paul is saying it is good for them that he dies because his spirit would be resurrected and live through his words (that they believed) when he resurrects and indwells them- that's why Paul says "..we believe therefore we speak.."

It is the same underlying belief that Paul commended in 1 Cor 15:29 of those that baptized for the dead for they believed that the dead saints (OT saints) will resurrect and indwell them (not in the future but in the 1st century).

 

[presidente]

You either fall short or are insincere because Paul is not merely talking about his suffering for the sake of the gospel, he is talking about his death and resurrection. This is Paul's version similar to what Jesus told the disciples that it was good for them that He (Jesus) goes so that the spirit of truth would come to them, if He doesn't, the spirit of truth wouldn't come. In the same sense, Paul is saying it is good for them that he dies because his spirit would be resurrected and live through his words (that they believed) when he resurrects and indwells them- that's why Paul says "..we believe therefore we speak.."

That's just weird. Paul dying and indwelling them? No. That's not what it's saying. Take a look at the verse again:
"10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. "

This is death he bears in his body, and life made manifest in our body as well.

It is the same underlying belief that Paul commended in 1 Cor 15:29 of those that baptized for the dead for they believed that the dead saints (OT saints) will resurrect and indwell them (not in the future but in the 1st century).

I think you just have some strange notions. There is no logical connection between being baptized for the dead and dead OT saints indwelling them. That verse says nothing about OT saints, and nothing about them indwelling them.

I don't see these notions of yours in the New Testament. We do not know about their baptism from the dead beyond this reference. They could have been baptized on behalf of those who had professed faith but hadn't yet been baptized, for example. We just don't know. There just isn't a framework for the idea you propose in the Bible.

I think some of these strange doctrines and ideas you hold to are good illustrations for why it might be helpful for you to go to a church where there are people gifted to teach, exhort, etc.

 

[presidente]

A synagogue is just a building. The Church is the mystical Body of Jesus Christ. In the beginning the believers were mostly Jews who made up the Church. And they continued to meet in synagogues as they had a hard time letting go of the Mosaic Law that they had been in for so long.

Though some still met in the synogogues, that didn't make the church synonymous with the synagogue. The Church and the synagogue are not the same.

Quantrill

James 2:2 warns the believing readers that if a man comes into their synagogue wearing a gold ring and a poor man comes in wearing vile rainment, they should not show partiality toward the man with the gold ring and despise the poor man. The Greek word translated 'assembly' is synagogen, the Greek word from which we get synagogue.

Synagogue originally meant assembly, and later came to also mean the building where the meetings occurred. The same thing happened with ekklesia after Biblical times.

James could be talking about a Jewish synagogue where Christian Jews were participants. Or he could have been talking about Christian assemblies. He mentions a footstool, so the assembly might have been in a home. Though I have read that there is a tradition that James was an elder at the assembly at the upper room site and that archeologists have found a first century synagogue building on the first century level of that made from the same type of stone as the temple, with Christian 'grafitto' and the Torah niche facing the Tomb of the Holy Sepulchre, the likely resurrection site. James apparently died before the destruction of the temple.