Church is it even biblical

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Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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No, I am not coming into any 'realization' as you describe. Anyone with a gift of the Holy Spirit, and who are exercising that gift, are appointed by God. And every believer has a gift of the Holy Spirit. Thus every believer is a priest appointed by God. No such time has occurred where these appointments have stopped.

It is the promise of the New Covenant to Israel. They were offered it by Jesus Christ when He came the first time. Had they received Him they would have received the promises found in it. But they didn't.

Quantrill
So the covenant by Jesus doesn't apply to us?

Saying that everyone is a priest would go against:

Jer 31:
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”


Worse still, that's calling God a failure, He said something that His word did not accomplish.
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
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So the covenant by Jesus doesn't apply to us?

Saying that everyone is a priest would go against:

Jer 31:
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”


Worse still, that's calling God a failure, He said something that His word did not accomplish.
It applies to us as Jesus Christ is building His Church. See (Matt. 16:18). (Jer. 31) doesn't remove the believers from being priests Every believer is a priest as opposed to just a certain few. (2 Peter 2:5)

Who said God would not accomplish it. He will.

Quantrill
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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It applies to us as Jesus Christ is building His Church. See (Matt. 16:18). (Jer. 31) doesn't remove the believers from being priests Every believer is a priest as opposed to just a certain few. (2 Peter 2:5)

Who said God would not accomplish it. He will.

Quantrill
When will He accomplish it?
He says in the new covenant, "a brother will not tell a brother.... because they will all know me..."

A priest's work is not to preach
 

Quantrill

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Sep 20, 2018
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When will He accomplish it?
He says in the new covenant, "a brother will not tell a brother.... because they will all know me..."

A priest's work is not to preach
When He is finished building His Church.

Is now.

Quantrill
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
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The Bible also teaches that Jesus will come back. This is very clear. You should have some flexibility in your thinking when it comes to taking things literally and spiritually.
There has to be something more to the sign of the Lord coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, when the Lord is already here among us.
When you put all the other pieces of the puzzle together in which this is taking place (in Matthew 24; Luke 21, and Mark 13), where environmental chaos appears to have been ensuing, I then speculate the sign of the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, has to do with the Lord rectifying a lot of the detrimental environmental destruction man will have caused through industry.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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When He is finished building His Church.

Is now.

Quantrill
So the new covenant only comes into effect after the church us built?

I told you, the work of a priest is not to preach.
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
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So the new covenant only comes into effect after the church us built?

I told you, the work of a priest is not to preach.
The New Covenant is in effect now. We who are the Church are under the New Covenant. Israel has yet to come under the New Covenant. But she will.

I told you it is now.

Quantrill
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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The idol of varied metals starting with teh head of gold and successively becoming weaker less prcious materieals down to the feet of clay and iron represents successive civilizations beginning with Babylon working its way to today's mixture of weak and strong nations, not cohesive to remain together being destroyed by the arrival of the Kingdom of god…...the change from the temporal to the eternal..
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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The New Covenant is in effect now. We who are the Church are under the New Covenant. Israel has yet to come under the New Covenant. But she will.

I told you it is now.

Quantrill
Good. So in this covenant, a brother is not supposed to tell another, know the Lord as per Jer 31.

But you also said we are all priests, what is the work of a priest?
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
There's no unity and you know it.
Pre trib/mid trib/post trib- which is the truth from God? which position do you hold?
Predestination vs free will- which is the truth from God? which position do you hold?

This is just an example and there are so many areas diving the church.

I'm not saying that there was never a time to preach and evangelize, that time is long gone.

Jer 31:

33“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,

from the least of them to the greatest,”

declares the Lord.

Maybe comprehension is an issue but the Lord is simply saying, the new covenant is not like the old one where He sent messengers to the people. In the NC, the law is within the people and they don't need anyone to come give them what they already have.
Pre/mid/post- trib... Which view do I hold to? All of the above. I know that some can't understand that but they also couldn't understand the prophecy of Christ when he came because they didn't know how to reconcile what is written.
Predestination and free will, where do I stand? Also and again both they are not mutually exclusive or contradictory.
As far as unity goes, most believe in some form or combination of the above but there is little controvercy, all agree that there is room for some debate on the matter and that the greater is the person of Christ, and him crusified and resurrected. In this we are undivided.
And just when do you think verse 34 was fullfilled?
And there is much more to that passage.

"Behold, days are coming," declares the Lord , "when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and with the seed of beast. As I have watched over them to pluck up, to break down, to overthrow, to destroy and to bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant," declares the Lord . "In those days they will not say again, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge.' But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge. "Behold, days are coming," declares the Lord , "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the Lord . "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the Lord , "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord ,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the Lord , "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." Thus says the Lord , Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The Lord of hosts is His name: "If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the Lord , "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever." Thus says the Lord , "If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done," declares the Lord . "Behold, days are coming," declares the Lord , "when the city will be rebuilt for the Lord from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah. And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the Lord ; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever."
Jeremiah 31:27‭-‬40

Just because it has yet to be full filled does not mean it isn't true, there is still times to come.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Pre/mid/post- trib... Which view do I hold to? All of the above. I know that some can't understand that but they also couldn't understand the prophecy of Christ when he came because they didn't know how to reconcile what is written.
Predestination and free will, where do I stand? Also and again both they are not mutually exclusive or contradictory.
As far as unity goes, most believe in some form or combination of the above but there is little controvercy, all agree that there is room for some debate on the matter and that the greater is the person of Christ, and him crusified and resurrected. In this we are undivided.
And just when do you think verse 34 was fullfilled?
And there is much more to that passage.

"Behold, days are coming," declares the Lord , "when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and with the seed of beast. As I have watched over them to pluck up, to break down, to overthrow, to destroy and to bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant," declares the Lord . "In those days they will not say again, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge.' But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge. "Behold, days are coming," declares the Lord , "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the Lord . "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the Lord , "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord ,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the Lord , "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." Thus says the Lord , Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The Lord of hosts is His name: "If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the Lord , "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever." Thus says the Lord , "If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done," declares the Lord . "Behold, days are coming," declares the Lord , "when the city will be rebuilt for the Lord from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah. And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the Lord ; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever."
Jeremiah 31:27‭-‬40

Just because it has yet to be full filled does not mean it isn't true, there is still times to come.
That chapter simply talks of the new covenant which is being fulfilled in us.

Heb 10:
11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.” b
17Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.” c
18And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
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Good. So in this covenant, a brother is not supposed to tell another, know the Lord as per Jer 31.

But you also said we are all priests, what is the work of a priest?
It doesn't say 'not supposed to'. It says 'And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest..." (Jer. 31:34)

This occurs when all Israel has returned to her God and received Jesus Christ as her Messiah and King.

No, I didn't say we are all priests. The Bible clearly says we are all priests. (1 Peter 2:5) As priests we offer up spiritual sacrifices. All done in accordance to our gifts of the Holy Spirit that we have.

Quantrill
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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It doesn't say 'not supposed to'. It says 'And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest..." (Jer. 31:34)

This occurs when all Israel has returned to her God and received Jesus Christ as her Messiah and King.

No, I didn't say we are all priests. The Bible clearly says we are all priests. (1 Peter 2:5) As priests we offer up spiritual sacrifices. All done in accordance to our gifts of the Holy Spirit that we have.

Quantrill
So the new covenant (blood of Jesus) only applies when tribal Jews accept Jesus?

Something is really really really wrong with the church.

A priest has nothing to do with with telling a brother 'know the Lord', they offer sacrifices to God and in this new covenant, we are all priests because we offer sacrifices to God when we worship in truth. This has nothing to do with telling a brother 'Know the Lord'
 

Quantrill

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Sep 20, 2018
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So the new covenant (blood of Jesus) only applies when tribal Jews accept Jesus?

Something is really really really wrong with the church.

A priest has nothing to do with with telling a brother 'know the Lord', they offer sacrifices to God and in this new covenant, we are all priests because we offer sacrifices to God when we worship in truth. This has nothing to do with telling a brother 'Know the Lord'
No, the Church comes under the New Covenant, only by reason of Israel's being set aside for now. The Church does not fulfill everything in the New Covenant. But she does come under the New Covenant. All of the New Covenant will be fulfilled in Israel.

Nothing wrong with the Church.

The priest does now. Everyone in the Church is a priest. And we give the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And we offer up spiritual sacrifices. (1 Peter 2:5) and (2:9) are clear. You don't have to believe it. Just recognize that is what it says.

Quantrill
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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Doesn't matter. A synagogue and the Church of Christ are not the same.

Quantrill
The quoted history of the word, synagogue, is from M Webster, so it is adviseable you take up your dispute with the company.

As for the "church" being the Body of Christ, as long as you refer to those member of His Body around the globe belonging to various denominations, you are close.

When the Father calls His children out of the great harlot, I believe He will be calling His children also out of her daughters, that will be the true Body of Christ. Church is jsut the evolution of a word meaning assembly which may be any denomination.

If you believe all of this is incorrect that is your decision, but from decades of study this is my determination in the sight of God.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Jesus Christ was and is both God and Man. He is the God/Man. He is God the Son Who became a Man. Because He became a man, He also has a human nature.

Jesus Christ was not stained with Adam's sin due to the virgin birth. But the flesh He had was of the human race. You quote (Rom. 1:4) when you should have quoted (Rom. 1:3) first. " Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh."

Melchizedek was a man, period. Nothing more. His life and ministry, which was of a different priesthood than Aaron's, were presented as a type of Christ. And Jesus Christ priesthood was after the order of Melchizedek.

Jesus Christ the Son and Man, died on the cross. He died just like you and I will die. Our body dies, but our spirit/soul still lives. Jesus Christ was God the Son, Who died on the cross. He, God the Son with a human nature, was resurrected again three days later. And in the process of that resurrection the Holy Spirit welded and fitted that Body with the Son so that Jesus Christ will forever be the God/Man.

Just because we don't know Jesus Christ after the flesh, as those did when He walked the earth, doesn't mean He isn't flesh and bone.

Stranger
Yes he was made according to the flesh for a one demonstration of the unseen Spirit . His Spirit was not made or created.

I see that a little differently. Not a salvation issue .But to myself more of how can we hear Him who remains without form. The order of Melchizedek was a continual order without beginning or end.

God is supernatural without nature as a beginning. He is not, nor neither could he be a man as us having mother and father beginning of spirit life or end thereof.

When he left he made it clear that we know him no more after the things seen the temporal (2 Corinthians 5:16) We walk by faith after the eternal unseen .Flesh and blood which would include His in which he said could not profit will not bring another demonstration of the lamb of God who was slain before the foundation of the world.

The Son of man, Jesus our savior resisted worship in respect to his temporal flesh . Saying things like... if I not go not (disappear) the Holy Spirit will not come. And when called good teacher according to His flesh he would give glory to God unseen saying: "only God is good".

He refused to be called a daysman all the days of his life. A daysman, not a common term is used to represent a fleshly mediator as a infallible umpire that is set between God not seen and Man with permission from both parties . Boldly the Pope takes that upon his self.

Job chapter nine seems to give us some understanding .

For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.Job 9:32-33

Mathew chapter 7 also seems to support . Informing us just as we are to call no man father on earth, the same applies with teacher or Master .No man can serve two masters as teachers. The flesh and the Spirit . One is our Father in heaven just as one is our master or Rabbi . We can plant the seed and another water it with the doctrines of God. But God alone causes the increase if any . Again the promise to come in the flesh as a demonstration of the unseen Spirit was once.

I thin Acts supports that conclusion.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven

Or like the description in Revelation with the words clouds representing the unseen Spirit. Every eye of the believer heart will see him by faith as those given the privilege can to watch Just a Noah and his family that watched by faith(typified as watchers) . To those who have not ben give the privilege to watch he will come as a thief in the night sudden destruction will befall them. Typified as wailers.

Revelation 1:7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen
 
Mar 28, 2016
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The quoted history of the word, synagogue, is from M Webster, so it is adviseable you take up your dispute with the company.

As for the "church" being the Body of Christ, as long as you refer to those member of His Body around the globe belonging to various denominations, you are close.

When the Father calls His children out of the great harlot, I believe He will be calling His children also out of her daughters, that will be the true Body of Christ. Church is jsut the evolution of a word meaning assembly which may be any denomination.

If you believe all of this is incorrect that is your decision, but from decades of study this is my determination in the sight of God.

Amen in the end of the matter you can call his chaste vigin bride, the church or the assembly... It all represents the same wife. Not the divorced Israel in respect to the flesh, the strange woman, the great harlot who did fornicate with other gods in the likeness of men violating the first commandment.

The veil is rent.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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Since neither Adam nor Eve were born of fornication their sin was simple, they disobeyed God, which is a sin.

Next someone will say Mary, the most blessed and humble of women, is now the queen of heaven...
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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One thing I have observed is many think the demonstration of the work of unseen Spirit was not a demonstration of the lamb of God who had already slain from before the foundation of the world but the actual working out of it . God is not a man as never was never could be.

Christ of His own flesh informs us it did not profit for it is rather the unseen Spirit that does work to quicken our souls as we walk by faith the unseen . It was necessary that he did come incorruptible flesh that aged in a process of dying typified as sinful to put away sin in the flesh..... again as a demonstration of the work already finished from before the foundation of the world

Romans 8:3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

In order to establish a perfect type of the character and nature of the priesthood of the Lord, there was no man who could be a perfect type and so God Himself appeared in the form of a man as that seen . He did not take on a human nature. Melchizedek did not become man as He did when Jesus Christ became man, but He did appear in the form of a man, in the person of Melchizedek, again in order to set up a type, a perfect type of the eternal character of the priesthood of the Jesus .

Seeing God cannot die his corruptible body was kept from corruption for three day .The same body of flesh was raised .He was therefore raised according to the unseen spirit of holiness. There is no such thing as flesh of holiness.(a Catholic idea)

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Having finished the demonstration be fore he return to the unseen glot ry he had with the father Jesus left clear instructions, that even though some did know him after the flesh that did not profit from then on we know long look for another fleshly demonstration of the power of the Spirit. We walk by faith the eternal not seen

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.2 Corinthians 5:16
The preaching that the Christ didn't come as a human is fascinating to me. Here is a God who was prophesied to come as a man, who was "born" and who "died" as all men do, and yet religious men can not accept that He was flesh and blood.

What spirit would be behind such a teaching?

What Spirit would want me to believe that Jesus wasn't a man at all, but God. That Jesus didn't have victory over satan as a man, but as God. How can God have a victory over it's creation? Why would God fake it? Why would He claim victory over sin if He was a God? Why would He make such a big deal out of His Death and resurrection if He was a God with nothing to lose in the first place. Was His death a fraud in your religion? Was it all just show business?

How is He the Firstfruit of many other Humans who Trust in God's Way over the ways of religious man, if He wasn't a Human? When He was tempted, was that just a fake slight of hand to deceive, a fraud? Can satan tempt God? Was His sweat of blood just a deception, just a fake show, and for what?? Why pretend to be a man if He wasn't? This whole teaching really diminishes His Glory and victory. This teaching doesn't come from the father, there is no way.

I know you don't mean anything bad, you are just following a teaching. But consider some things here if you will. Was His Whole life and sacrifice a fraud, a scam? To pretend He was a man when He really wasn't?

Did Cain Kill Abel, or did Cain kill the Christ that was in Abel? And every Faithful servant of God through out the entire Bible, could this same thing be said? So of a truth, the Christ was slain from the foundation of the World was He not?

And why is this? Can I trust Jesus for the answer?

Gen. 1:
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

John 3:
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Did Cain also "hate the Light"?

No sir, I Believe He came in the Flesh. A Man, like unto Moses, a "Man of Sorrows" born of a woman, mortal human being who was killed and died as all men do, and was raised by God the Father, 3 days and 3 nights later and given a "changed" Immortal Body as HE will all those Faithful whom God has given Him.

He risked and gave His Life for me, His immortality for me. And He was Faithful to the End. Truly He is the Author and finisher of my Faith.

He was truly the First fruit, the first Human of all humans who died in Faith. And by His human obedience "many" Shall be saved.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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There's no unity and you know it.
Pre trib/mid trib/post trib- which is the truth from God? which position do you hold?
Predestination vs free will- which is the truth from God? which position do you hold?

This is just an example and there are so many areas diving the church.

I'm not saying that there was never a time to preach and evangelize, that time is long gone.

Jer 31:

33“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,

from the least of them to the greatest,”

declares the Lord.

Maybe comprehension is an issue but the Lord is simply saying, the new covenant is not like the old one where He sent messengers to the people. In the NC, the law is within the people and they don't need anyone to come give them what they already have.
Could you clarify what you mean here sir?


You said "I'm not saying that there was never a time to preach and evangelize, that time is long gone.".
Are you suggesting we no longer need to evangelize? If yes, what is your evidence that its the case? Adn what do you suggest we do then?
Also, do you believe that verse 34 in jeremiah 31 is already fulfilled?