Church is it even biblical

[presidente]

You say there must be apostles/prophets/evangelists/pastors and teachers so that unity in faith is achieved, but what we see today is that with increase in pastors/evangelists, there's increased disunity and confusion. Things that you can only associate with satan and not God.

You have actually proved the op right, thanks for your efforts.

No, if you admit that unity of the faith has not been acheived, then these ministries are still required.

 

[JohnRH]

In the time of the apostles they would have called it synagogue.
The church was first brought to light in the 16th century by Catholics and king james.
Jesus called his gathering Eclesia.
The church is a building we are a temple.
The Catholics built the greatest empire in the world. Killing those who disagreed. And stealing untold billions of dollars from those who wanted to know god.
Then there are the multitude of denominations with no fellowship with each other.
Inside. Of each group there is the hierarchy.
Fellowship amongst saints happen at the grass roots level. I e boots on the ground.
To summarize church is not of God, for he wanted a relationship with us and each other.
That is surely lacking in most church.
Hope your happy I'm back

Greek "ekklesia" = English "church".
I don't know of any King James occurrence of "church" where it refers to a physical building. Did Priscilla and Aquila have a "building" in their house? Did the "buildings" of Galatia set aside money for the saints at Jerusalem? "Church" is simply an English translation of "ekklesia".

 

[presidente]

Greek "ekklesia" = English "church".
I don't know of any King James occurrence of "church" where it refers to a physical building. Did Priscilla and Aquila have a "building" in their house? Did the "buildings" of Galatia set aside money for the saints at Jerusalem? "Church" is simply an English translation of "ekklesia".

I believe the KJV uses 'churches' once to refer to pagan temples in Acts in the KJV.

 

[Noose]

No, if you admit that unity of the faith has not been acheived, then these ministries are still required.

Divisions and confusion is what we see in the churches now and we can not associate confusion with God- a clear indicator that churches was not meant by God. The unity we have is in faith, that unity was achieved in the 1st century and is ongoing until the end of age.

 

[JohnRH]

I believe the KJV uses 'churches' once to refer to pagan temples in Acts in the KJV.

Yes.
Acts 19:37 For ye have brought hither these men, which are neither robbers of churches, nor yet blasphemers of your goddess.
Churches here translates "hieron" instead of "ekklesia". I don't think that's what the OP is driving at though.

 

[Quantrill]

One thing I have observed is many think the demonstration of the work of unseen Spirit was not a demonstration of the lamb of God who had already slain from before the foundation of the world but the actual working out of it . God is not a man as never was never could be.

Christ of His own flesh informs us it did not profit for it is rather the unseen Spirit that does work to quicken our souls as we walk by faith the unseen . It was necessary that he did come incorruptible flesh that aged in a process of dying typified as sinful to put away sin in the flesh..... again as a demonstration of the work already finished from before the foundation of the world

Romans 8:3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

In order to establish a perfect type of the character and nature of the priesthood of the Lord, there was no man who could be a perfect type and so God Himself appeared in the form of a man as that seen . He did not take on a human nature. Melchizedek did not become man as He did when Jesus Christ became man, but He did appear in the form of a man, in the person of Melchizedek, again in order to set up a type, a perfect type of the eternal character of the priesthood of the Jesus .

Seeing God cannot die his corruptible body was kept from corruption for three day .The same body of flesh was raised .He was therefore raised according to the unseen spirit of holiness. There is no such thing as flesh of holiness.(a Catholic idea)

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Having finished the demonstration be fore he return to the unseen glot ry he had with the father Jesus left clear instructions, that even though some did know him after the flesh that did not profit from then on we know long look for another fleshly demonstration of the power of the Spirit. We walk by faith the eternal not seen

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.2 Corinthians 5:16

Jesus Christ was and is both God and Man. He is the God/Man. He is God the Son Who became a Man. Because He became a man, He also has a human nature.

Jesus Christ was not stained with Adam's sin due to the virgin birth. But the flesh He had was of the human race. You quote (Rom. 1:4) when you should have quoted (Rom. 1:3) first. " Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh."

Melchizedek was a man, period. Nothing more. His life and ministry, which was of a different priesthood than Aaron's, were presented as a type of Christ. And Jesus Christ priesthood was after the order of Melchizedek.

Jesus Christ the Son and Man, died on the cross. He died just like you and I will die. Our body dies, but our spirit/soul still lives. Jesus Christ was God the Son, Who died on the cross. He, God the Son with a human nature, was resurrected again three days later. And in the process of that resurrection the Holy Spirit welded and fitted that Body with the Son so that Jesus Christ will forever be the God/Man.

Just because we don't know Jesus Christ after the flesh, as those did when He walked the earth, doesn't mean He isn't flesh and bone.

Stranger

 

[Quantrill]

Divisions and confusion is what we see in the churches now and we can not associate confusion with God- a clear indicator that churches was not meant by God. The unity we have is in faith, that unity was achieved in the 1st century and is ongoing until the end of age.

Sort of like they had in the beginning of the Church. Just read (1 and 2 Corinthians). (Galatians). (1 and 2 Thess). (James). (1 and 2 and 3 John). (Revelation) etc. etc.

These things will always be with the Church on the earth.

Faith is the key to our entrance into the Kingdom of God. We are united by the Spirit of God, more precisely, the Spirit of God as it is in the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

Quantrill

 

[JaumeJ]

Church is Biblical. The word(s) for it have changed over the centuries. One could even call it the synagogue since that is the Greek word for an assembly….. There is no deep secret about coming together inJesus Christ's name, when two or more are such, He is there with.

 

[Quantrill]

Church is Biblical. The word(s) for it have changed over the centuries. One could even call it the synagogue since that is the Greek word for an assembly….. There is no deep secret about coming together inJesus Christ's name, when two or more are such, He is there with.

The Church is not the same as 'synogogue'. It cannot be called a synagogue. The Church is the Body of Christ, composed of every born-again member, indwelt by the Spirit.

The fellowship of people, believers, in the Old Testament, were not the Church of Jesus Christ. The Church, the Body of Christ had it's start at Pentecost and will be complete at the Rapture.

Quantrill

 

[Locoponydirtman]

You say there must be apostles/prophets/evangelists/pastors and teachers so that unity in faith is achieved, but what we see today is that with increase in pastors/evangelists, there's increased disunity and confusion. Things that you can only associate with satan and not God.

You have actually proved the op right, thanks for your efforts.

Actually, if you attended church you would see a ground unity between churches except for the apostate churches and the cults. There are many prosperity churches who are turning from their apostacy and teaching actual biblical doctrine, not all but many, you see Baptists are more and more accepting the gifts of the Holy Spirit and practicing the laying on of hands as prescribed in the book of James. Which brings me to the next point if you don't church how do you do as prescribed in James for the sick? I see lots of places you are failing to meet scripture. I honestly think you are one of those spoken of who will not endure sound doctrine. Also why is it that because a scripture is full filled such as
preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
2 Timothy 4:2‭-‬5
Here Paul exorting Timothy to carry oneven using the same words preach, teach, evangelist. Why do reject the Bible and biblical teaching for your own ideas. It has been shown to you clearly how you are out of step with the Bible.
So now what does the word have to say about a person who refused to accept correction?

 

[JaumeJ]

The Church is not the same as 'synogogue'. It cannot be called a synagogue. The Church is the Body of Christ, composed of every born-again member, indwelt by the Spirit.

The fellowship of people, believers, in the Old Testament, were not the Church of Jesus Christ. The Church, the Body of Christ had it's start at Pentecost and will be complete at the Rapture.

Quantrill

History and Etymology for synagogue

Middle English synagoge, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin synagoga, from Greek synagōgē assembly, synagogue, from synagein to bring together, from syn- + agein to lead — more at agent

 

[Noose]

I find your argument a bit strange, of course. I am not Greek scholar, and I suspect you are not either. But from I have read the word translated 'is' in the verse you are looking at seems to mean 'exist' in the Greek. Does the resurrection exist. Paul is arguing that the resurrection exists because in the past 'Christ has indeed been raised from the dead," (v. 20.) But that word is in the perfect indicative middle passive. This shows up in his arguments in the passage where he also says, 'if the dead are not raised.' It shows up earlier in the passage where he says that Christ was raised on the third day. It does not seem to be inflected for future or past the way the English word is.

I strongly suspect that you are arguing for the time at which the resurrection occurs based on information not communicated in the Greek words you are discussing. This is a bit more complicated than a concordance will explain. But historically, native speakers of Greek, Latin-speaking believers who read Greek, and the scholars who read Greek saw the resurrection as a future event. Your going up against people who actually have known the language throughout history.

But look at verse 22. There is a word in the future indicative passive, zōopoiēthēsontai. They that are Christ's will be made alive at His coming.

Notice here that the resurrection is a future event and the time it occurs is specified-- at His coming.

In I Thessalonians 4:16, at the Lords' return, the dead in Christ 'will rise first', and that is in the future indicative middle in Greek. It is a future event.



I do not follow this line of reasoning of yours at all? Baptism for the dead is not a common church practice now. The Mormon cult have something they call baptism for the dead. Why would Paul point to future practices his readers would not understand?

Paul was writing to persuade his audience, and his immediate audience lived in the first century, that there would be a resurrection of the dead and that Christ was the firstfruits of it. He was writing about a future event, but in their own time, some were baptized for the dead. He asked why some did that if there were no resurrection. He might have been pointing out an inconsistency in their beliefs and practices. It doesn't make sense that he discuss 21st century baptism for the dead if the resurrection will occur in this century.

I'm not a Greek or even an English speaker, but taking this argument in that direction is not helpful.I have never believed that knowing Greek would help anyone understand the bible.

If 1 Cor 15 was the only thing written about resurrection, then Greek/Grammar would suffice as an argument, but let's see what Paul said in other places and how he applied it on himself:

2 Cor 4:
11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

Q. If there's no resurrection, how was Paul's death beneficial to them?

2 Pet 1:12So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.

Q. If there's no resurrection, how was Peter's death beneficial to them?

 

[Noose]

Actually, if you attended church you would see a ground unity between churches except for the apostate churches and the cults. There are many prosperity churches who are turning from their apostacy and teaching actual biblical doctrine, not all but many, you see Baptists are more and more accepting the gifts of the Holy Spirit and practicing the laying on of hands as prescribed in the book of James. Which brings me to the next point if you don't church how do you do as prescribed in James for the sick? I see lots of places you are failing to meet scripture. I honestly think you are one of those spoken of who will not endure sound doctrine. Also why is it that because a scripture is full filled such as
preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
2 Timothy 4:2‭-‬5
Here Paul exorting Timothy to carry oneven using the same words preach, teach, evangelist. Why do reject the Bible and biblical teaching for your own ideas. It has been shown to you clearly how you are out of step with the Bible.
So now what does the word have to say about a person who refused to accept correction?

There's no unity and you know it.
Pre trib/mid trib/post trib- which is the truth from God? which position do you hold?
Predestination vs free will- which is the truth from God? which position do you hold?

This is just an example and there are so many areas diving the church.

I'm not saying that there was never a time to preach and evangelize, that time is long gone.

Jer 31:

33“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”

declares the Lord.

Maybe comprehension is an issue but the Lord is simply saying, the new covenant is not like the old one where He sent messengers to the people. In the NC, the law is within the people and they don't need anyone to come give them what they already have.

 

[Quantrill]

History and Etymology for synagogue

Middle English synagoge, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin synagoga, from Greek synagōgē assembly, synagogue, from synagein to bring together, from syn- + agein to lead — more at agent

Doesn't matter. A synagogue and the Church of Christ are not the same.

Quantrill

 

[JaumeJ]

Doesn't matter. A synagogue and the Church of Christ are not the same.

Quantrill

It seems you have your ideas in a vacuum where no one may enter to shine light. Also you have not read my posts to which you reply, either that or you simply do not understand.

God bless you. May Jesus Christ llig light your way always.

 

[Quantrill]

It seems you have your ideas in a vacuum where no one may enter to shine light. Also you have not read my posts to which you reply, either that or you simply do not understand.

God bless you. May Jesus Christ llig light your way always.

Or...you could be mistaken.

Quantrill

 

[Noose]

Sort of like they had in the beginning of the Church. Just read (1 and 2 Corinthians). (Galatians). (1 and 2 Thess). (James). (1 and 2 and 3 John). (Revelation) etc. etc.

These things will always be with the Church on the earth.

Faith is the key to our entrance into the Kingdom of God. We are united by the Spirit of God, more precisely, the Spirit of God as it is in the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

Quantrill

It was very difficult having come from pagan background/practices but the confusion then was under control because the apostles would oversee their upbringing. The apostles being appointed by God means that God oversaw their building. Even with all that, you can not compare with nowadays- the confusion today is is not from our background but from what we are taught by these self appointed teachers/evangelists inside these churches clearly showing that the teaching is not from God.

Dan 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43As you saw the iron mixed with clay,so the peoples will mix with one another, but will not hold together any more than iron mixes withclay.

You know what this means.

 

[Quantrill]

It was very difficult having come from pagan background/practices but the confusion then was under control because the apostles would oversee their upbringing. The apostles being appointed by God means that God oversaw their building. Even with all that, you can not compare with nowadays- the confusion today is is not from our background but from what we are taught by these self appointed teachers/evangelists inside these churches clearly showing that the teaching is not from God.

Dan 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43As you saw the iron mixed with clay,so the peoples will mix with one another, but will not hold together any more than iron mixes withclay.

You know what this means.

Things always get worse. That doesn't mean God does away with the Church. Not all pastors, teachers, evangelists, are self appointed. Every member of the Church has a spiritual gift; everyone born-again. That is of God. And as fellowships form together as a local body these gifts are recognized and exercised.

The longer a church exists, the more time satan has to inject the error. And so it occurs. Overtime people are given positions of authority that they have not spiritual gift for. They may not be self-appointed but they shouldn't be there. Thus you have contentions and divisions.

No problem. You contend with them. Just like the apostle's did in the first century. It is important to belong to a fellowship of believers; a local church.

Yes, I know what it means.

Quantrill

 

[Noose]

Things always get worse. That doesn't mean God does away with the Church. Not all pastors, teachers, evangelists, are self appointed. Every member of the Church has a spiritual gift; everyone born-again. That is of God. And as fellowships form together as a local body these gifts are recognized and exercised.

The longer a church exists, the more time satan has to inject the error. And so it occurs. Overtime people are given positions of authority that they have not spiritual gift for. They may not be self-appointed but they shouldn't be there. Thus you have contentions and divisions.

No problem. You contend with them. Just like the apostle's did in the first century. It is important to belong to a fellowship of believers; a local church.

Yes, I know what it means.

Quantrill

At least you are coming to the realization that something is wrong. The only difference between me and you is that you are look-warm, i'm not. Things get worse because of defiance to the word of God. There's absolutely no reason to say some teachers are ok and some are not- everyone has failed because non was appointed by God.

Appointment by God is never a feeling or a dream or a theology class, it has always been physical and some people like Jonah & Moses even tried to escape from the appointment. And God Himself ordained a time when these appointments had to stop and that time was the ratification of the new covenant.

What is your understanding of this prophesy and when do you think it was to be:

Jer 31:
33“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”

declares the Lord.

 

[Quantrill]

At least you are coming to the realization that something is wrong. The only difference between me and you is that you are look-warm, i'm not. Things get worse because of defiance to the word of God. There's absolutely no reason to say some teachers are ok and some are not- everyone has failed because non was appointed by God.

Appointment by God is never a feeling or a dream or a theology class, it has always been physical and some people like Jonah & Moses even tried to escape from the appointment. And God Himself ordained a time when these appointments had to stop and that time was the ratification of the new covenant.

What is your understanding of this prophesy and when do you think it was to be:

Jer 31:
33“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”

declares the Lord.

No, I am not coming into any 'realization' as you describe. Anyone with a gift of the Holy Spirit, and who are exercising that gift, are appointed by God. And every believer has a gift of the Holy Spirit. Thus every believer is a priest appointed by God. No such time has occurred where these appointments have stopped.

It is the promise of the New Covenant to Israel. They were offered it by Jesus Christ when He came the first time. Had they received Him they would have received the promises found in it. But they didn't.

Quantrill