Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen to that. Thanks.

So, is there any way that we can undo what only God can do in the first place? (beware: trick question)

If we had more power than God. But then again, WHo has more power than God that they can undo what he did?

 

[PennEd]

No. Hebrews 10: 26 says, "if we go on sinning willfully there remains no more sacrifice for sins."

I have heard eternal security people try to come up with a cute explanation for this. They will say, "Everybody sins willfully! You did it because you wanted to." That is true as James 1: 12 points out but that is not what the author is saying in Hebrews 10: 26.

He is saying that if you turn away from Christ you will perish. He evens says in Hebrews 10:29 that this person was once sanctified. That means they could only have been a real believer. I have heard this verse also twisted by OSAS or Calvinists to say they weren't really saved but the verse tells you they were sanctified. This is a denial of what Scripture is saying by the OSAS/Calvinist.

To answer your question, I feel horrible when I sin. Only Christ's life in me can give me the victory. All true Christians feel this way when they sin. Yes, the Spirit is at work. Romans 8: 23 "we groan inwardly awaiting the redemption of our bodies" so we can be free from this body of death/flesh.

But the Spirit helps and gives life to our flesh as Romans 8 talks about.

Ok. I believe you ARE right.

YOU can lose YOUR Salvation!!!!!

But I CAN'T lose MINE. Because I KNOW the ONE who holds it, and HE KNOWS ME!!

 

[Ariel82]

You make some good points but the issue I have with you mostly is that you say the second soil did not partake of the Holy Spirit and they were not real believers.

Jesus says they were real believers and that "life sprang up" that can only happen via the Holy Spirit as we are dead in sin apart from Him.

In the old testament people had the Holy Spirit upon them but not inside of them.

For example see how King Saul prophecies when the Holy Spirit was upon him. Yet the Holy Spirit leaves him and instead God sends a spirit that troubles him with delusions. He only gets respite when David, who has the Holy Spirit with him, plays music for him

The fact the Holy Spirit can leave people is Old covenant. People who only have the old covenant and not the one mediated by Jesus and His death on the Cross, can lose their salvation/the presence of the holy Spirit can abandon them.

However the New covenant is different.

Until you have the fruit of salvation, until the gospel is not just a seed but caused the old you/fleshly you to die/ be cruxified upon the cross and the seed grows into a fruit bearing tree of faith not just a fake weed in the heart that is too Stony or thorny to truly allow self to die and new life to begin.

Until you have the saving faith in Jesus (fruit) then you are not saved

 

[rlm68]

Grace means something is given to people who do not earn it. It means, I give you this gift out of mercy or because I love you.

It can not be earned,
If one has to do work in order to recieve something, it is NOT OF GRACE.

A child of God can not be ful of sin. John already showed that.

It appears to me you need to study the books of john, I would suggest start wiht the gospel. And then move to his three epistles.

God can not say I give you this gift, I paid for it wiht my own blood. And there is no way you coudl ever earn it to begin with, Then tell you you have to earn it by doing something to keep it.

Thats not grace.

BUT YOU ARE EARNING IT. YOU CARE!!

WHEN YOU SIN AND KNOW YOU HAVE SHAMED YOURSELF TO GOD BECAUSE YOU CARE!!

YOU ARE THE CONDITION!!


We have already concluded together when we sin we ask for forgiveness. We both know there is a reason we ask for forgiveness. WE ARE HUMAN, and if we did not need to ask for forgiveness, WE HUMAN'S NEVER WOULD.

So, the fact we do ask for forgiveness is because of a CONDITION we have...we SIN!!

We must be SINLESS in order for God to keep His promise. He wants to keep it and WILL 100% But we still have to meet our end of the CONDITION. To be sinless to Him. This is how we show we are learning and becoming MORE LIKE HIM!! We therefore must be SINLESS to allow God to keep His promise to us!!

 

[Sketch]

… I believe that the Bible does not teach this but most Christian churches are teaching this today. ….

So, you have the minority view of this here on this forum? Since MOST Christian churches are represented here? You are hoping that MOST of us will change our view based on your topic?

 

[Sketch]

If we had more power than God. But then again, WHo has more power than God that they can undo what he did?

Right, thanks.
I'm never sure exactly what these folks that rail about "OSAS" are even talking about.
They even claim that we are not saved in the here and now. How can they lose what they don't even have?
Makes no sense.

 

[rlm68]

We do earn our salvation by where we choose to put our faith, our concerns, our care. The fact we know our sin hurts God and the relationship we have with God keeps us seeking forgiveness. Because we care about those things that matter to God. It's a conscious way of keeping God on our mind since that is where the Holy Spirit speaks to us more.

To assume we can sin and all is good through GRACE, is really testing God. God would never have us believe something that ultimately makes us test Him for our salvation. He might make us test Him to come through for us in a real tough situation in life for us to learn, but He does not set terms on salvation. He states: this is what He will do for us. And we try to remain as pure to Him without testing Him via our salvation through GRACE...no...we literally go to our Father and say, FORGIVE ME!!

 

[delirious]

Give me one reason one would fail to continue trusting in Christ. And go back to the way they were pre salvation, before they humbled themselves at the point of the cross. Because GOD convincted them of their sin, Their condemnation, and their just punishment, and showed them he was th ONLY WAY, and they were completely convinced.

THEN God not only saved them, But gave them his spirit. Who began a good work in them. And started that great work, which changed many things, including the way they think, their sins all of a sudden because no fun. And their eyes were opened to many truths about god. To all of a sudden go back.

How do you go from being completely convinced to again outright rejecting completely when God proved himself to be true? And you recieved him in that truth

And give examples. And show in these examples how someone when from pure faith to unbelief. (

The fourth soil is a good example of what you just said. In my opinion, they are the same as the sheep from John 10: 26-29.

They love God because they have good and sincere hearts. Jesus says they have those type of hearts. He says they have those type of hearts before they ever hear the Word. They receive it with a good and sincere heart.

Cornelius, Lydia etc... are great examples of this. People who had faith in God and good hearts before being saved so God sent the gospel to them so they could believe in Jesus and be saved through Him.

What I think you are missing and is the point of my whole post is that there are at least two groups of genuine believers.

The first group is the fourth soil which will never perish or be snatched out of Christ's hand because they are people of faith and they always listen to Him.

The second group have bad hearts (rocky soil) and they stop believing when the going gets tough. They don't really love God but they believe for a while and because the way is hard and narrow (Matthew 7: 13-14) they abandon Christ.

Christ does not save or entrust Himself to that group of believers. They are still real believers though and partake of His Spirit. They are the same group in John 2: 23-25 who Jesus knows that they have bad hearts. Same thing in John 8: 31 and John 15: 6.

There are people who believe and are not "fully convinced" as you say. Their true faith perishes and so do they. God keeps you through your faith. It is something you must do until the end of your life. We must keep trusting Christ.

This is why Paul said at the end of his life he had fought the good fight, he had kept the faith, he had finished the race and would receive the crown of life.

He never stopped trusting Christ.

 

[Ariel82]

Saving faith is that nothing you can do past, present or future can save you; only what Jesus has done through His death on the Cross for our sins and what He continues to do via His Holy Spirit is what saves us....it's not about what we do but who we Know and who saves us is Jesus.

Not our choices or our actions but His sacrifice and His grace.

 

[delirious]

1 John 3: Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

One should determine when studying scripture when fake believers are spoken of, and when true children of God are spoken of.

Hebrews is written concerning jews attacking new believers, and trying to install law to grace.

Willful sin is ongoing lifestyl of sin, which as john said, is IMPOSSIBLE for a true believer to do.

But it Hebrews 10: 26-39 says a true believer does do it. Verse 29 says he was sanctified. That means to be set apart and belong to God. They had real faith. But Hebrews 10: 26 says that they go back to a lifestyle of sin and embrace the world again. That passage makes it clear that they will perish.

Saying they were not "true believers" is inaccurate. They were true believers. The Scripture there says they were. They were sanctified.

 

[Ariel82]

But it Hebrews 10: 26-39 says a true believer does do it. Verse 29 says he was sanctified. That means to be set apart and belong to God. They had real faith. But Hebrews 10: 26 says that they go back to a lifestyle of sin and embrace the world again. That passage makes it clear that they will perish.

Saying they were not "true believers" is inaccurate. They were true believers. The Scripture there says they were. They were sanctified.

The fourth soil is a good example of what you just said. In my opinion, they are the same as the sheep from John 10: 26-29.

They love God because they have good and sincere hearts. Jesus says they have those type of hearts. He says they have those type of hearts before they ever hear the Word. They receive it with a good and sincere heart.

Cornelius, Lydia etc... are great examples of this. People who had faith in God and good hearts before being saved so God sent the gospel to them so they could believe in Jesus and be saved through Him.

What I think you are missing and is the point of my whole post is that there are at least two groups of genuine believers.

The first group is the fourth soil which will never perish or be snatched out of Christ's hand because they are people of faith and they always listen to Him.

The second group have bad hearts (rocky soil) and they stop believing when the going gets tough. They don't really love God but they believe for a while and because the way is hard and narrow (Matthew 7: 13-14) they abandon Christ.

Christ does not save or entrust Himself to that group of believers. They are still real believers though and partake of His Spirit. They are the same group in John 2: 23-25 who Jesus knows that they have bad hearts. Same thing in John 8: 31 and John 15: 6.

There are people who believe and are not "fully convinced" as you say. Their true faith perishes and so do they. God keeps you through your faith. It is something you must do until the end of your life. We must keep trusting Christ.

This is why Paul said at the end of his life he had fought the good fight, he had kept the faith, he had finished the race and would receive the crown of life.

He never stopped trusting Christ.

Second soil are believers in the old covenant not the new.

The Israelites that followed Moses for forty years but never entered the promise Land

 

[Ariel82]

Hebrews 10
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

*****

Blood covered the outside (outwardly joining a church or profession of faith) no inwarrd change or sanctification

 

[Ariel82]

Hebrews 10

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left

*****
Knowledge of the truth is not as the same as having a saving faith in the Gospel. Even demons knew Jesus was the Holy one of God.

 

[Quantrill]

No. Hebrews 10: 26 says, "if we go on sinning willfully there remains no more sacrifice for sins."

I have heard eternal security people try to come up with a cute explanation for this. They will say, "Everybody sins willfully! You did it because you wanted to." That is true as James 1: 12 points out but that is not what the author is saying in Hebrews 10: 26.

He is saying that if you turn away from Christ you will perish. He evens says in Hebrews 10:29 that this person was once sanctified. That means they could only have been a real believer. I have heard this verse also twisted by OSAS or Calvinists to say they weren't really saved but the verse tells you they were sanctified. This is a denial of what Scripture is saying by the OSAS/Calvinist.

To answer your question, I feel horrible when I sin. Only Christ's life in me can give me the victory. All true Christians feel this way when they sin. Yes, the Spirit is at work. Romans 8: 23 "we groan inwardly awaiting the redemption of our bodies" so we can be free from this body of death/flesh.

But the Spirit helps and gives life to our flesh as Romans 8 talks about.

(Heb. 10:26) is to be understood in light of all that was said previously. The whole of (Heb. 10) is about how greater the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ is to the many animal sacrifices under the Law.

Thus you understand (Heb. 10:26) statement that "...if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," by the statement made in (Heb. 10:18). "Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."

If you sin wilfully, you do not go and get another sacrifice as those under the Law did. There is no more sacrifice to get. Jesus Christ is the Sacrifice . His Sacrifice is sufficient for all your sin.

Instead of being a threat of condemnation, these verses are a testament of the mercy and grace Jesus Christ has provided for us. Yet they are used by many to condemn many saints.

Quantrill

 

[SpoonJuly]

I have spent the last 22 months studying the Bible, especially the New Testament, several hours per day. Sometimes up to 10 to 12 hours per day. I have been a Christian for 30 years but because of unemployment the last 22 months I have had a lot of time to study. I estimate I have spent about 3,500 hours studying my Bible the last 2 years.



I’m writing this post because I am concerned about a dangerous and false doctrine that permeates the Christian church.



It is the doctrine of “Once Saved, Always Saved” or “Eternal Security”. This doctrine teaches that once a person believes in Jesus, even if it is just for one moment in time, that person is saved forever. THIS IS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY CONTINUE BELIEVING OR ARE REPENTANT.



I believe that the Bible does not teach this but most Christian churches are teaching this today.



Because of the length of this post I had to make 2 posts. The original post for this thread and then the first reply is also from me to finish the post. Thank you to all who take the time to read this.



Now let me explain, using SCRIPTURE ALONE, why I think that “Once Saved Always Saved” is a lie.



Let me start with John 3: 16. Perhaps the most famous verse in the Bible. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”



We also have John 5: 24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”



And John 6: 47 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.”



So what do these 3 verses have in common? The Greek word for faith/believe is Pistis. It is in the present tense in the Greek in all of these verses. The present tense in Greek denotes a “kind of action” that is continuous. It means a CONTINUAL coming to Christ in faith.



The Christian church for the most part teaches that you can “accept Christ” by believing in Him and you have “eternal life”. No repentance required. No continuing in faith. Just walk that aisle and “get saved”. This is giving many people in the church a false belief that they are saved.



Eternal Life isn’t something that is deposited inside of you which is how many Christians think of it. I think the term “born again” adds to the confusion. Also people think that the sealing of the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 1: 13 and Ephesians 4: 30 is permanent.



BEING “BORN AGAIN” AND “SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT” ARE BOTH REVERSIBLE IN THE BIBLE. THE BIBLE ALSO SAYS THERE ARE AT LEAST 2 CLASSES OF GENUINE BELIEVERS.



How do I know these 2 things? In this post I will try to show you why these statements are true. Let me give you some examples from SCRIPTURE ALONE. Not my opinions.



You will find the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13, Mark 4 and Luke 8. The version in Luke 8 is especially helpful. Let us take a close look at the second and fourth soils in these parables and also compare it with John 15 and the parable of the vine and branches.



What does Jesus say about the second soil? He says five specific things:



1 - Mark 4: 5, That the soil is rocky with not much depth of earth (a bad heart).

2 - Luke 8: 6, That it sprang up.

3 - Luke 8: 13, That in the time of testing/temptation they immediately fall away

4 - Luke 8: 6, That it withered away

5 - Luke 8: 13, That they BELIEVE for a while



The last point is especially important. I have spoken with people who believe in Eternal Security/Once Saved Always Saved and they always try and tell me that the second soil never really believed. They are calling Jesus a liar. Probably not on purpose but that is what they are saying.



Jesus Himself says that the second soil REALLY BELIEVES. That is what the Scripture says.



Now let’s look at John 15: 1-6 and see how it relates to the second soil:



In this parable Jesus is talking about remaining in Him which we do by faith. What happens to the branch in John 15: 6? He loses his faith and is broken off from the vine. So what is the fate of this branch? It is the same as the second soil.



He withers and dies. The same description as what happens to the second soil when he falls away.

And we are told in John 15: 6 the branches are gathered and thrown into the fire and burned. This is an obvious reference to the Lake of Fire and the second death.



What does it say about the fourth soil? That they hear the word with a “Good and Sincere” heart. They are good soil. They bear fruit with patience as the parable tells us.



SO YOU SEE WE HAVE AT LEAST TWO CLASSES OF REAL BELIEVERS.



One with good and sincere hearts (the fourth soil) and one with bad hearts (the second soil which is rocky). If you examine the three versions of this parable closely you will see that the condition of the soil is equal to the condition of the heart.



It also helps to look at John 2: 23-25 and also John 8: 31. These are both second soil type believers. How do we know this? What does Jesus Himself say about them in these two passages?



To paraphrase John 2: 23-25, “…many BELIEVED in Jesus but Jesus did not believe in them…” Why did Jesus not believe in these BELIEVERS? He tells you in the verses. They have bad hearts. They don’t really love Him. They won’t stay long.



Same thing in John 8: 31 when Jesus says to those that BELIEVED in Him that “…if you continue in My word then you are really My disciples…”



The Scripture in both these passages says that these people REALLY BELIEVED. The same thing as what Jesus says about the second soil and the branch in John 15.



THESE ARE FOUR DIFFERENT PASSAGES THAT SHOW THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO CLASSES OF GENUINE BELIEVERS. To deny this is to deny Scripture and call Jesus a liar. These are not my opinions.



So how does the “new birth” work, and being “sealed with the Holy Spirit” work?



To use a crude analogy it works like electricity. Please hear me. I am not saying Jesus is electricity. He is infinitely greater obviously. I am trying to use an analogy to get the point across. I am trying to get you to think about how the “new birth” and “sealing” work in the biblical way.



Like I said earlier, many Christians think the “new birth” and “sealing by the Holy Spirit” are one-time things that are permanent and irreversible. This is false. Let me show you:



Remember John 15 and the vine and branches we just talked about? Jesus is the vine and we are the branches just as the parable tells us. What does a vine do?



It pushes it’s life giving sap into the branches otherwise the branches would die. Just like electricity lights a light bulb.



Ephesians 2: 1 says that we are all dead in sins. We have all been born physically alive thanks to our parents but spiritually dead thanks to Adam and Eve and their lack of faith in the Garden.



We are all empty vessels, or empty light bulbs if you will, walking around that need to be filled with Christ’s Spirit. How does that happen?



Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3: 3, “..you must be born again…” How?



By faith in Christ. You are that empty light bulb/vessel. When you believe in Him you flip the light switch on and the electricity/Jesus heats up the filament (your dead spirit) and causes the light bulb to shine. So when people see a true Christian they are seeing Jesus shining bright through that person.



As soon as you believe you are “born again” and “sealed with the Holy Spirit”. When we read of conversions in the book of Acts it works just like that.



But can you become “unborn” and “unsealed”? The biblical answer is YES.



This terminology is a stumbling block to the person who believes in Eternal Security/OSAS. The reason it is a stumbling block is because they think the “new birth” and “sealing” are irreversible. They are not. YOUR FAITH IS ALWAYS REQUIRED YOUR WHOLE LIFE UNTIL YOU DIE AND YOUR FAITH COMES FROM YOU ALONE. JESUS DOES NOT BELIEVE FOR YOU.



It works like electricity. When you stop trusting in Christ, you flip the light switch off. No more electricity/Jesus. The filament goes cold just like when you turn off a light bulb and there is no more light. Jesus’ presence has left you because you don’t have faith in Him anymore.



This fits the exact five details that I gave you earlier about the second soil. Remember them?



1 - “Rocky Soil” = Bad heart that doesn’t really love God

2 - “Life springs up.” This one is very important. We are all born dead spiritually with no life in us. Only God has spiritual life. Their faith was real because they were attached to His life giving Spirit.

3 - “In the time of testing/temptation they immediately fall away” This is more proof of a bad heart. You can’t “fall away” unless you had real faith.

4 - “they withered away” Just like the branch in John 15 that stopped believing also. They withered because Christ’s life was in them and now Christ’s Spirit has left them when they flipped the light switch off.

5 - JESUS SAYS THEY WERE REAL BELIEVERS. The eternal security/OSAS must stop denying that this is true. Jesus says it is true. But these people have bad hearts and don’t love Him so they lose their faith and perish.



What about the “sealing by the Holy Spirit” in Ephesians 1: 13 and Ephesian 4: 30?


POST CONTINUED IN FIRST REPLY

Just another person that lacks faith in the power of God to keep what is His.
I place my hope for eternal life in Jesus. My faith is only in Jesus.
You and others that are spouting this false doctrine are trusting in your self to KEEP yourself saved.
Keep trusting in self and you will end up in Hell.

 

[Ariel82]

Ezk 36:26
"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

2 Corinthians 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Ezekiel 11:19
"And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen to that. Thanks.

So, is there any way that we can undo what only God can do in the first place? (beware: trick question)

No.....We are in the Son's Hand, the Father's hand, Sealed by the Spirit of promise, saved to the uttermost and KEPT by the power of God through faith......

I KNOW THAT WHATSOEVER GOD DOES, it is EVERLASTING and he dose this so that men may fear before HIM <--Ecclesiastes 3:14

 

[Ariel82]

Stony heart..Rocky soil...

 

[delirious]

(Heb. 10:26) is to be understood in light of all that was said previously. The whole of (Heb. 10) is about how greater the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ is to the many animal sacrifices under the Law.

Thus you understand (Heb. 10:26) statement that "...if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," by the statement made in (Heb. 10:18). "Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."

If you sin wilfully, you do not go and get another sacrifice as those under the Law did. There is no more sacrifice to get. Jesus Christ is the Sacrifice . His Sacrifice is sufficient for all your sin.

Instead of being a threat of condemnation, these verses are a testament of the mercy and grace Jesus Christ has provided for us. Yet they are used by many to condemn many saints.

Quantrill

I agree with you that Hebrews 10: 26 should be understood in the context of chapter 10. I also agree that they are a testament to the grace, mercy and forgiveness found in Christ.

What I said in my post was "that if you turn away from Christ you will perish".

It is not about works. It is always about faith alone in Christ alone. He is sufficient and paid for all our sins.

The people in Hebrews 10: 26, taking in context what Hebrews 10 says, were thinking about going back to temple sacrifices.

They were like the second soil I have mentioned earlier. They were losing their faith in Christ and if they do that they will perish.

My point is they were genuine believers in real danger of perishing because of losing their faith in Christ. The writer of Hebrews is warning them what will happen if they do stop trusting Christ.

 

[Ariel82]

You are quoting Philippians 1: 6. What is the obvious assumption that you are missing? That Paul wrote that to believers in Phillipi. He is faithful and will complete His work in all who trust in Him. You must keep trusting though or He doesn't.

How do you explain the 80 verses and passages in the New Testament that say that if you don't endure in faith to the end of your life you will not be saved?

Post them, because I have read the whole bible at least 20 times in my short life and have not seen what you mean.

I have read that God will keep me in His loving arms. Even when I don't know what to pray or say God will intercede for me and many more promises.