I refuse to discount one scripture's truth to accept another.

[CharliRenee]

to whom the word of the Lord came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign. It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, until the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah, king of Judah, until the exile of Jerusalem in the fifth month. Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." Then I said, "Alas, Lord God ! Behold, I do not know how to speak, Because I am a youth." But the Lord said to me, "Do not say, 'I am a youth,' Because everywhere I send you, you shall go, And all that I command you, you shall speak. "Do not be afraid of them, For I am with you to deliver you," declares the Lord . Then the Lord stretched out His hand and touched my mouth, and the Lord said to me, "Behold, I have put My words in your mouth. "See, I have appointed you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, To pluck up and to break down, To destroy and to overthrow, To build and to plant."
Jeremiah 1:2‭-‬10 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/jer.1.2-10.NASB

Ok well, we see that God continued to work with Jeremiah through the time of Josiah, King of Judah, grandson of Manasseh, through to the Jehoiakim, Josiah's Son, reign in Judah, to the eleventh year of Zedekiah's, also Josiah's son, eleventh year of reign of Judah.

Both of Josiah's sons died at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar but Zedekiah's fate was the cruelest of the two. He was forced to watch his son's slaughter. He then had his eyes removed, making sure the last thing he saw was that awful death of his sons.

Ok now, I'm not asserting that my knowledge of the history presented is spot on.

Moving on...

Ok, let's examine what the Lord said to him. First can we, the readers, insert ourselves here, should we? Can we assume that these words to Jeremiah is the same for us??? Hmmm...let's take a closer look…

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you. We know that He foreknew everything before creating it, so yeah that definitely applies.

This next part I'm not sure can be applied for us all. And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

While I accept 100% that if His word says so, it is, it isn't clear to me that we, all of his, were consecrated for a divine calling. I think that a mindset that accepts this as our own, can be very effectual in the since that if we believe we were called to do great things, and that He will be with us, well, let's just say, my oh my how empowering.

I get that this touches, yet again, on the exhaustive topic of predestination and election and also OSAS. Heaven forbid, for we have traveled those roads that leads us back to the corpse of a horse, to the point that every bone of that horse has been pummelled to exhaustive and devouring proportions.

I will admit... I think many scriptures of both the OT and NT support it, but so do many also point to the “whosoever” free-will conclusions. I refuse to discount one scripture's truth to accept another. Also, I refuse to draw my conclusions because it eases my mind with regard to the goodness of my maker. Regardless, His ultimate goodness is not up for debate. Somewhere in the entirety of the scripture lies the big picture of truth that brings harmony to them all. I will continue to examine and search and if He grant's my full understanding, echoes of epiphanic delight will soar throughout the Heavens.

Back to Jeremiah, His great and profound calling was for certain, and equally daunting. Much was given and much expected. What an honor, what a privilege that came with much lamenting.

 

[preacher4truth]

Using whosoever will in the context of predestination and election is simply pitting Scripture against Scripture when used as some proof that people come to God out of their own will. Scripture denies this takes place, John 1:13; Romans 9:16ff. Note: it depends not on man's will, but on God who has mercy.

The whosoever wills must be interpreted in light of the other truths, not used in attempt to counter it, or attempt balance it, which is really an attempt to give man and God both credit. The denials will come in to no avail because that is exactly what is happening; think about it, that is exactly why this argument is used, and it is completely unbiblical; Soli Deo Gloria still stands and no argument can disprove it.

Typically, and wrongly, they (whosoever will verses) are used in attempt to neutralize another passage that is not liked, such as John 6:64-66, John 6:44 &c.

No man wills to come to God unless God draws the person, doing a work in their heart, thus the being free in will to do so "conclusions" is in error. This is not what the Scripture is teaching "Come to me in your free will!" Not even close.

Yes, God draws whom he wills to draw. I know, the age old misusage of "...will draw all men unto myself" (John 12:32) must be thrown in, out of context, to make it appear that every single person ever will be drawn to God. Nothing is further from the truth, and this is also pitting Scripture against Scripture. This is (sorry!) discounting one Scriptures truth for another.

The context of John 12:32 shows as to why Jesus made the statement "draw all men unto myself" for any who dare to lay aside their tradition for truth. This theory that all men will be drawn to Christ is simply untrue as the fact remains that not all people have heard the Gospel.

God saves, and he has elected whom he wills to save, these are the whosoever wills.

 

[Nehemiah6]

This next part I'm not sure can be applied for us all. And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. (Jer 1:5)

While God knows everyone before they are even conceived, this Scripture is primarily for Jeremiah but it is also applicable to Christ, not to Christians. Jesus was ordained (or appointed) to be the ultimate Prophet of God as indicated in Deuteronomy 18.

15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken... ["Prophet" capitalized for Christ]

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

As we go further into this chapter, we see more words addressed to Jeremiah and also applicable to Christ.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

I refuse to draw my conclusions because it eases my mind with regard to the goodness of my maker.

My mind, fed by Scripture and God's character, can not wrap itself around any notion that a loving God can elect the majority of mankind to reprobation. They all may well chose damnation over heaven, but that is and should be their choice to make. My Bible is clear that there is much consternation on Jesus' part as He waited for the lost of Chorazim and Bethsaida to repent. He certainly does not appear to believe in election to hell.

 

[CharliRenee]

Using whosoever will in the context of predestination and election is simply pitting Scripture against Scripture when used as some proof that people come to God out of their own will. Scripture denies this takes place, John 1:13; Romans 9:16ff. Note: it depends not on man's will, but on God who has mercy.

The whosoever wills must be interpreted in light of the other truths, not used in attempt to counter it, or attempt balance it, which is really an attempt to give man and God both credit. The denials will come in to no avail because that is exactly what is happening; think about it, that is exactly why this argument is used, and it is completely unbiblical; Soli Deo Gloria still stands and no argument can disprove it.

Typically, and wrongly, they (whosoever will verses) are used in attempt to neutralize another passage that is not liked, such as John 6:64-66, John 6:44 &c.

No man wills to come to God unless God draws the person, doing a work in their heart, thus the being free in will to do so "conclusions" is in error. This is not what the Scripture is teaching "Come to me in your free will!" Not even close.

Yes, God draws whom he wills to draw. I know, the age old misusage of "...will draw all men unto myself" (John 12:32) must be thrown in, out of context, to make it appear that every single person ever will be drawn to God. Nothing is further from the truth, and this is also pitting Scripture against Scripture. This is (sorry!) discounting one Scriptures truth for another.

The context of John 12:32 shows as to why Jesus made the statement "draw all men unto myself" for any who dare to lay aside their tradition for truth. This theory that all men will be drawn to Christ is simply untrue as the fact remains that not all people have heard the Gospel.

God saves, and he has elected whom he wills to save, these are the whosoever wills.

I in no way feel I am discounting, just still examining. Like I said, I get 100% why you come to the conclusions, after all, He never changes, and all of the OT and NT Priests, Judges, Kings and Prophets points to His pattern of election. I get it, and that He saves us, not us. I guess what I'm saying is I believe He knew me before I was born and that He created me for communion with Him. I am repentant and want to kindle a fresh the gift He has in me, by laying His hands upon others. I absolutely agree 100% with what your saying. I'm just not yet certain of exactly how all of His come and stay together. I just know and accept that without Him it is impossible and with Him all things are possible. I know that He is a God of order and that any confusion or contradiction found is on my faulty part. So I seek to remain teachable, as a child, ready to accept whatever He wants for me, which is HIM. My favorite verse in the bible is why I know the Author is alive and called me is Jeremiah 15:16 I found the words and ate them, they were to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart, for I was called by the Lord of Host. So yeah, I get your firm resolve, it makes sense. I am just open to further instruction and understanding, knowing for certain, though, never to lean on my own understanding.

 

[CharliRenee]

My mind, fed by Scripture and God's character, can not wrap itself around any notion that a loving God can elect the majority of mankind to reprobation. They all may well chose damnation over heaven, but that is and should be their choice to make. My Bible is clear that there is much consternation on Jesus' part as He waited for the lost of Chorazim and Bethsaida to repent. He certainly does not appear to believe in election to hell.

I definitely get why you wrestle the notion of predestination for hell, like Proverbs 16:4. I get it 100% because that notion contradicts a God of Love and of Mercy. So you get why I am open to further understanding, while I cling to Jeremiah 15:16. I think we are all called, and created to love and serve Him, but where I go tilt is thinking He would give the gift of Himself to only those He created to choose Him, when He created us all for His pleasure. His will is that we all be saved. Somewhere my own confusion is misguided, so I continue to grow and learn, leaning on my Father, my Lord, and my Savior.

 

[CharliRenee]

Be patient with me Brothers and Sisters, I love, as you, the one that made it possible by first loving us.

 

[CharliRenee]

Using whosoever will in the context of predestination and election is simply pitting Scripture against Scripture when used as some proof that people come to God out of their own will. Scripture denies this takes place, John 1:13; Romans 9:16ff. Note: it depends not on man's will, but on God who has mercy.

The whosoever wills must be interpreted in light of the other truths, not used in attempt to counter it, or attempt balance it, which is really an attempt to give man and God both credit. The denials will come in to no avail because that is exactly what is happening; think about it, that is exactly why this argument is used, and it is completely unbiblical; Soli Deo Gloria still stands and no argument can disprove it.

Typically, and wrongly, they (whosoever will verses) are used in attempt to neutralize another passage that is not liked, such as John 6:64-66, John 6:44 &c.

No man wills to come to God unless God draws the person, doing a work in their heart, thus the being free in will to do so "conclusions" is in error. This is not what the Scripture is teaching "Come to me in your free will!" Not even close.

Yes, God draws whom he wills to draw. I know, the age old misusage of "...will draw all men unto myself" (John 12:32) must be thrown in, out of context, to make it appear that every single person ever will be drawn to God. Nothing is further from the truth, and this is also pitting Scripture against Scripture. This is (sorry!) discounting one Scriptures truth for another.

The context of John 12:32 shows as to why Jesus made the statement "draw all men unto myself" for any who dare to lay aside their tradition for truth. This theory that all men will be drawn to Christ is simply untrue as the fact remains that not all people have heard the Gospel.

God saves, and he has elected whom he wills to save, these are the whosoever wills.

I love this as it resonated with me.

God saves, and he has elected whom he wills to save, these are the whosoever wills.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

I think we are all called, and created to love and serve Him, but where I go tilt is thinking He would give the gift of Himself to only those He created to choose Him, when He created us all for His pleasure.

I agree with you in that God's calling is for the saved and to the service they are called to. Some are called to pastor, others are called to serve in other areas. Some are just called to be faithful, but a ministry can not function without them.

There are a few verses in the Bible that can be nudged to say that God chooses who will be saved, but there are many more that do not allow themselves to be manipulated (at least without changing meanings of world such as the world is now to be understood as the elect.)

 

[CharliRenee]

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. (Jer 1:5)

While God knows everyone before they are even conceived, this Scripture is primarily for Jeremiah but it is also applicable to Christ, not to Christians. Jesus was ordained (or appointed) to be the ultimate Prophet of God as indicated in Deuteronomy 18.

15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken... ["Prophet" capitalized for Christ]

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

As we go further into this chapter, we see more words addressed to Jeremiah and also applicable to Christ.

Oh thank you for your interpretations and insights. You have helped inspire me to go further. So do you then say that we are not all ordained and anointed to be leaders? I think there in lies the difference. Elected are annointed to have authority, maybe. Is that way too simplistic? Am I getting off track? Perhaps I should take a deep breath, and step back (into His word).

 

[preacher4truth]

For the record, God didn't have to elect any person to hell, all mankind is heading there outside of Christ.

God is not obligated to save any person as he owes no man nothing. He does not draw every person to himself who has ever lived. The elephant in the room is that many think if God does not do this, then he is not fair, so they make this out to be what God must have done -- that is, everyone has heard, has been given a chance &c.

I get the empathy there, but it isn't biblical whatsoever.

By the way, a study of the character of God will show all this to be true, as Scripture is replete with instances of God showing mercy only to those whom he wills. And he is of course immutable.

Thus to allude to this as something that "can't be knowing the nature and character of God!" is to be willfully ignorant of this truth, that is the known revelation of him showing mercy only to whom he wills. I'm speaking not of electing persons to hell (which is a straw man and an emotional plea) but of God saving and having mercy on whom he wills.

One has to take in the whole of Scripture to come up with the revealed character and attributes of God; 2 Timothy 2:15. If not, our conclusions are only fantasy or wishful thinking not based in truth and we are fashioning God however we desire him to be.

The fact remains God has chosen, for whatever reasons we do not know, to not save some. He has also, for his own glory and purpose decided to save some.

 

[CharliRenee]

I agree with you in that God's calling is for the saved and to the service they are called to. Some are called to pastor, others are called to serve in other areas. Some are just called to be faithful, but a ministry can not function without them.

There are a few verses in the Bible that can be nudged to say that God chooses who will be saved, but there are many more that do not allow themselves to be manipulated (at least without changing meanings of world such as the world is now to be understood as the elect.)

Thanks Baptist brother, hmmmmm, very nice response. You have me thinking. I like that about these topics. While many all are seeing different views, I think the cohesion is in the Same conductor.

 

[preacher4truth]

I love this as it resonated with me.

God saves, and he has elected whom he wills to save, these are the whosoever wills.

Thank you for your kind words! Now I must be destroyed by others...but I will stand upon his truth!

 

[preacher4truth]

I love this as it resonated with me.

God saves, and he has elected whom he wills to save, these are the whosoever wills.

Yes, CharliRenee, that is the truth of the matter.

God bless!

 

[CharliRenee]

For the record, God didn't have to elect any person to hell, all mankind is heading there outside of Christ.

God is not obligated to save any person as he owes no man nothing. He does not draw every person to himself who has ever lived. The elephant in the room is that many think if God does not do this, then he is not fair, so they make this out to be what God must have done -- that is, everyone has heard, has been given a chance &c.

I get the empathy there, but it isn't biblical whatsoever.

By the way, a study of the character of God will show all this to be true, as Scripture is replete with instances of God showing mercy only to those whom he wills. And he is of course immutable.

Thus to allude to this as something that can't be "knowing the nature and character of God" is to be willfully ignorant of this truth, that is the known revelation of him showing mercy only to whom he wills. I'm speaking not of electing persons to hell (which is a straw man and an emotional plea) but of God saving and having mercy on whom he wills.

One has to take in the whole of Scripture to come up with the revealed character and attributes of God; 2 Timothy 2:15. If not, our conclusions are only fantasy or wishful thinking not based in truth and we are fashioning God however we desire him to be.

The fact remains God has chosen, for whatever reasons we do not know, to not save some. He has also, for his own glory and purpose decided to save some.

Yeah see so much of what you say is spot on with the patterns we see starting in the beginning.

I think your opening sentence is powerful one...

For the record, God didn't have to elect any person to hell, all mankind is heading there outside of Christ

Hmmmm, very good. I know that it seems I'm tossed about going this way and then that, seeking to please, let me just say that is not true. I do stand firm in my resolve regarding the CERTAINTY of Him!!! He is and always will be EVERYTHING Good to me.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I smell an old horse corpse.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

For the record, God didn't have to elect any person to hell, all mankind is heading there outside of Christ

True in a sense, but they do have the same opportunity that we did to hear the Gospel. And many do hear it and choose to reject it. Is that because they have been barred from accepting due to a frivolous God that decided that heaven was not for their kind? They can not respond because they are not chosen? No, they don't respond because they prefer this present evil world to some future world they care nothing for.

 

[preacher4truth]

Yeah see so much of what you say is spot on with the patterns we see starting in the beginning.

I think your opening sentence is powerful one...

For the record, God didn't have to elect any person to hell, all mankind is heading there outside of Christ

Hmmmm, very good. I know that it seems I'm tossed about going this way and then that, seeking to please, let me just say that is not true. I do stand firm in my resolve regarding the CERTAINTY of Him!!! He is and always will be EVERYTHING Good to me.

I don't think you're tossed about, or seeking to please. I see you as hashing out these truths and "talking out loud" in your OP.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Elected are annointed to have authority, maybe. Is that way too simplistic?

We need to keep in mind that unlike salvation (which is for "whosoever will") God elects His prophets and apostles (who are also prophets). So we need to be clear about who is a prophet. Here is the key "...and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak" (v. 7)

Prophets had a very specific ministry which was to speak or write the words of God, given by divine inspiration. Therefore Christ called the entire OT (the Hebrews Tanakh) "the Prophets" (generically, Luke 24:27). Moses was a prophet par excellence, but there is also a division within the Hebrew Bible called "Nebiim" or "Neviim" (the Prophets). And Jeremiah is within this group of books.

Prophets were not necessarily leaders within Israel. Indeed, just like Christ they were generally despised and rejected, because they exposed the sins of the people and also proclaimed God's judgments upon the sinners. At the same time they revealed God's future plans for Israel and the world under Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

to whom the word of the Lord came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign. It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, until the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah, king of Judah, until the exile of Jerusalem in the fifth month. Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." Then I said, "Alas, Lord God ! Behold, I do not know how to speak, Because I am a youth." But the Lord said to me, "Do not say, 'I am a youth,' Because everywhere I send you, you shall go, And all that I command you, you shall speak. "Do not be afraid of them, For I am with you to deliver you," declares the Lord . Then the Lord stretched out His hand and touched my mouth, and the Lord said to me, "Behold, I have put My words in your mouth. "See, I have appointed you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, To pluck up and to break down, To destroy and to overthrow, To build and to plant."
Jeremiah 1:2‭-‬10 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/jer.1.2-10.NASB

Ok well, we see that God continued to work with Jeremiah through the time of Josiah, King of Judah, grandson of Manasseh, through to the Jehoiakim, Josiah's Son, reign in Judah, to the eleventh year of Zedekiah's, also Josiah's son, eleventh year of reign of Judah.

Both of Josiah's sons died at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar but Zedekiah's fate was the cruelest of the two. He was forced to watch his son's slaughter. He then had his eyes removed, making sure the last thing he saw was that awful death of his sons.

Ok now, I'm not asserting that my knowledge of the history presented is spot on.

Moving on...

Ok, let's examine what the Lord said to him. First can we, the readers, insert ourselves here, should we? Can we assume that these words to Jeremiah is the same for us??? Hmmm...let's take a closer look…

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you. We know that He foreknew everything before creating it, so yeah that definitely applies.

This next part I'm not sure can be applied for us all. And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

While I accept 100% that if His word says so, it is, it isn't clear to me that we, all of his, were consecrated for a divine calling. I think that a mindset that accepts this as our own, can be very effectual in the since that if we believe we were called to do great things, and that He will be with us, well, let's just say, my oh my how empowering.

I get that this touches, yet again, on the exhaustive topic of predestination and election and also OSAS. Heaven forbid, for we have traveled those roads that leads us back to the corpse of a horse, to the point that every bone of that horse has been pummelled to exhaustive and devouring proportions.

I will admit... I think many scriptures of both the OT and NT support it, but so do many also point to the “whosoever” free-will conclusions. I refuse to discount one scripture's truth to accept another. Also, I refuse to draw my conclusions because it eases my mind with regard to the goodness of my maker. Regardless, His ultimate goodness is not up for debate. Somewhere in the entirety of the scripture lies the big picture of truth that brings harmony to them all. I will continue to examine and search and if He grant's my full understanding, echoes of epiphanic delight will soar throughout the Heavens.

Back to Jeremiah, His great and profound calling was for certain, and equally daunting. Much was given and much expected. What an honor, what a privilege that came with much lamenting.

I agree that i think God knew us before we were even concieved, i also think he only called certain people in the ages to certain purpose, i think of moses, and pharoah, i think of jeremiah, people chosen for a purpose, and i do not think he chose us all for these things, the bible says we all have a part to play, not everyone can be the head or the chest etc etc.. but at same taken, i do believe god expects us all to be leaders, or at least desire this, and teachers. Remember the corinthian church where paul said they should all be teachers, but instead he had to still feed them milk, one does not have to be a pastor, or deacon. Or hold an office to lead.