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Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#161
Oct 25, 2018
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#161
BaptistBibleBeliever said:
How is it a 'just' sentence when the sinner has no opportunity to respond to the Gospel. You god has blocked his ability to come to the cross. That's not just at all. That's a crime.

At least when a judge sentences someone to jail, there is reasonable proof that he acted with criminal intent. The unelected sinner doesn't get that chance at all.

I believe you are coming under conviction and seeing the injustice of your god.
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You have the false view of fair and grace, my friend. In your view, if God calls one, He must call all or He is not fair. If God was fair, He would send everyone of us to hell. We deserved hell being law breakers. If someone murders someone, fairness demands justice for that crime. We were breakers of God's Law and if He dealt with us with fairness, we would all be in hell. Now, if God has to call everybody without exception, then it becomes an obligation and not grace. For grace to truly be grace, it must be free.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#162
Oct 25, 2018
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#162
UnderGrace said:
Exactly.... a morally ambiguous God.
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God was not obligated to elect anyone, my friend, yet in His mercy and grace, elected a # that no man can #, gave them to His Son, who bore their sins on a cross, atoned for their sins, and rose again for their justification.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#163
Oct 25, 2018
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#163
BaptistBibleBeliever said:
You make a very good point. If God created hell ONLY for the devil and his angels, then there is no way to suggest that he ever elected men to reprobation.

It is proven to be a fallacy from the beginning.
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Election is unto salvation, not reprobation, my friend. God never elected anyone to hell. He elected a # that no man can # from all of fallen humanity to redeem via the cross of Jesus.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#164
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
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#164
BaptistBibleBeliever said:
How is it a 'just' sentence when the sinner has no opportunity to respond to the Gospel. You god has blocked his ability to come to the cross. That's not just at all. That's a crime.

At least when a judge sentences someone to jail, there is reasonable proof that he acted with criminal intent. The unelected sinner doesn't get that chance at all.

I believe you are coming under conviction and seeing the injustice of your god.
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My God, my friend? Must you infer that the God I serve is a different God than the One you serve? I am showing you respect, yet I am not getting the same reciprocated to me.

God never blocked anyone from coming to the cross. It is man's rebellious heart that precludes him from coming to the cross to gain salvation. Jesus told the religious leaders "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."(John 5:40) There was nothing holding them back other than their wicked hearts, hearts that hated Him, did not believe He was the Son of God.

God does not hold people back from coming to Him. He has to seek them out. He is the Seeker. We were running from Him when He found us and saved us.
 
BaptistBibleBeliever

BaptistBibleBeliever

Well-known member
#165
Sep 9, 2018
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#165
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
God never blocked anyone from coming to the cross. It is man's rebellious heart that precludes him from coming to the cross to gain salvation. Jesus told the religious leaders "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."(John 5:40) There was nothing holding them back other than their wicked hearts, hearts that hated Him, did not believe He was the Son of God.

God does not hold people back from coming to Him. He has to seek them out. He is the Seeker. We were running from Him when He found us and saved us.
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What? are you saying that election is a lie from hell and that God has issued an universal call to whomsoever will may come? That all may freely come to the cross and that those decisions are based upon man's free, self-determinate will?

No, I know you are not saying that. God elects a certain number to heaven, and by logical inference he does not elect the rest . . . thereby consigning them to a hell that He created for the Devil and his angels.

I'm looking for a euphemistic way to say that Calvinists lie . . . but can come up with nothing except that Calvinists lie.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#166
Oct 25, 2018
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#166
BaptistBibleBeliever said:
What? are you saying that election is a lie from hell and that God has issued an universal call to whomsoever will may come? That all may freely come to the cross and that those decisions are based upon man's free, self-determinate will?

No, I know you are not saying that. God elects a certain number to heaven, and by logical inference he does not elect the rest . . . thereby consigning them to a hell that He created for the Devil and his angels.

I'm looking for a euphemistic way to say that Calvinists lie . . . but can come up with nothing except that Calvinists lie.
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Again my friend, you have every right to believe what you do. But I expect the same graciousness from you as well.

You are looking at election as a vile thing, which could not be further from the truth. The lost do not go around looking for a way into God's kingdom. In fact, in their lost state, they can not even see it. Jesus told Nicodemus "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."(John 3:3) Without being born again, born anew, born from above, no one can see the kingdom of God.
 
BaptistBibleBeliever

BaptistBibleBeliever

Well-known member
#167
Sep 9, 2018
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#167
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Again my friend, you have every right to believe what you do. But I expect the same graciousness from you as well.

You are looking at election as a vile thing, which could not be further from the truth. The lost do not go around looking for a way into God's kingdom. In fact, in their lost state, they can not even see it. Jesus told Nicodemus "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."(John 3:3) Without being born again, born anew, born from above, no one can see the kingdom of God.
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They don't seek it because God has not called them. Please stop pretending otherwise. You are stuck in your theological prison and only you can open the door and release yourself from inane contradictions.

btw, it is not God's fault or God's pleasure that a man is not born again. The offer of life is always on the table. But God honors a man's free will and is POWERLESS to interfere with a man's choice . . . unless I am speaking to a Calvinist who believes that god simply twists their arm until they cry uncle and goes ahead and gets saved whether he wishes to or not.

What? I'm not gracious enough for you? Grow up.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#170
Oct 25, 2018
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#170
@BaptistBibleBeliever

I have you on ignore, so please do not address me anymore, as it would be fruitless for you to do so. I was truly civil to you, but you have completely went too far with me, and I will no longer bear the brunt of your insults.
 
BaptistBibleBeliever

BaptistBibleBeliever

Well-known member
#171
Sep 9, 2018
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#171
I guess it was too much for him that God honors the free will of his creatures. I recall that Jesus stood outside of Jerusalem (possibly with tears in His eyes) and said:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matthew 23:37)

Now wouldn't it be strange for the Saviour of the world to make such a plea to the lost if election were a biblical doctrine? I think not. But He forces no one to come to Him for mercy.

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28).

Nothing in the grammatical structure of this sentence lends itself to a very select few . . . all means ALL and ALL are heavy laden.

So, the real question would appear to be . . . Bema Seat Judgment of Christ or the Great White Throne Judgment.
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#172
Feb 6, 2014
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#172
With election Calvin version

Non Calvin : Logically speaking why we need to preach the gospel?

Calvin respon : because we do not know who predistent to go to heaven or to hell

Non Calvin: what is the different ? If A predestine go to heaven whether you preach to him or not a Will go to heaven, not depend oN your preaching (not by your work)
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#173
Aug 17, 2015
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#173
Jackson123 said:
With election Calvin version

Non Calvin : Logically speaking why we need to preach the gospel?

Calvin respon : because we do not know who predistent to go to heaven or to hell

Non Calvin: what is the different ? If A predestine go to heaven whether you preach to him or not a Will go to heaven, not depend oN your preaching (not by your work)
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This is the lazy reason sophism.

Events do not become without things leading to them. You say that you can drink a poison, because if it is predestined that you will die, then you will die without it too. And if it is not, you will live no matter you will do. This is absurd. If it is predestined you will die because of a poison, you will drink the poison before your death, so the preceding event is predestined also, the preceding to the preceding too... and so to the beginning of the creation.

Predestined ones need to hear the gospel and believe in it. Therefore the preaching is an instrument for the elect.

And it has a very little to do with Calvin.
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#174
Feb 6, 2014
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#174
trofimus said:
This is the lazy reason sophism.

Events do not become without things leading to them. You say that you can drink a poison, because if it is predestined that you will die, then you will die without it too. And if it is not, you will live no matter you will do. This is absurd. If it is predestined you will die because of a poison, you will drink the poison before your death, so the preceding event is predestined also, the preceding to the preceding too... and so to the beginning of the creation.

Predestined ones need to hear the gospel and believe in it. Therefore the preaching is an instrument for the elect.

And it has a very little to do with Calvin.
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If A predistent to save by your preaching It mean A predistent to save by your work.

Salvation is by grace not by work

Because salvation by grace, God Will not predistent A salvation by your work.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#175
Aug 17, 2015
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#175
Jackson123 said:
If A predistent to save by your preaching It mean A predistent to save by your work.

Salvation is by grace not by work

Because salvation by grace, God Will not predistent A salvation by your work.
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Our works are predestined too, for us to walk in them:

"For we are His workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
Eph 2:10
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#176
Feb 6, 2014
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#176
trofimus said:
Our works are predestined too, for us to walk in them:

"For we are His workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
Eph 2:10
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Created is and predistent is 2 different word.

Human created to glorified God, doesn't mean every human glorified God, some human worship and glorified devil.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#177
Aug 17, 2015
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#177
Jackson123 said:
Created is and predistent is 2 different word.

Human created to glorified God, doesn't mean every human glorified God, some human worship and glorified devil.
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The verse was about good works.
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

Well-known member
#178
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
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#178
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Election is unto salvation, not reprobation, my friend. God never elected anyone to hell. He elected a # that no man can # from all of fallen humanity to redeem via the cross of Jesus.
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This is the famous "I dont believe in double-predestination".

ATleast John Calvin was consistent in his beliefs and DID believe in double-predestination. Thats the logical conclusion. If you have a burning building and you choose to save half of the people there, you by definition choose to damn the other half.
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#180
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
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#180
I just posted this in a different thread (different subject), but believe it could be taken into consideration under the discussion of Calvinism:

[quoting that post]

G2564 - kaleó / kalesai / keklēmenous - "to call / invite / name"

G2822 - klétos / klētoi / klētois - "to call / invite / summon"

I believe it is important to notice how EACH of these is used in BOTH the Matthew 22:1-14 passage AND the Romans 8:28,30 verses

[note: I believe the Matthew 22:1-14 passage is referring to the "guests [plural]" of "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, whereas Romans 8 is referring to "the Church which is His body" (who is not "the guests [plural]") so there's that distinction to be noted also]

[quoting]
"In the NT, 2822 /klētós ("divinely called") focuses on God's general call – i.e. the call (invitation) He gives to all people, so all can receive His salvation. God desires every person to call out to Him and receive His salvation (1 Tim 2:4,5). "Unfortunately, many choose not to – but all can; all don't but all can call out to God for His mercy (not just 'some')" (G. Archer)." [source: Bible Hub]

[end of that post]

____________

Then there's also this context to consider:

"And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room." Lk14:22
 
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