Not By Works

[Studyman]

I do not play games dude, I asked you a question, Answer it

I did not ask you if you believed in My Jesus, I asked if you believed Jesus is God.

Now you get mad when people do not seem to answer your questions, yet here you go again refusing to answer

Can you for once answer the question?

Is Jesus God come to earth,

or was he a man who was born of mary, which had no diety before or after his birth

it is a SIMPLE question.

He was God, who became a human, followed His Fathers instructions perfectly which "made Him" a perfect human, and He offered His Perfect Human self to God the Father in fulfillment of His Fathers command that a "perfect sacrifice", without Blemish, shed His Blood for the sins of the people.

He learned obedience from the things He suffered just as all humans learn obedience by the things they suffered, only Him without sin.

And He became the Firstfruit of all those other Humans, who would repent of their sins and "follow" Him, like the Apostle Paul wrote:

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Just as the Author of my faith did.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He was God, who became a human, followed His Fathers instructions perfectly which "made Him" a perfect human, and He offered His Perfect Human self to God the Father in fulfillment of His Fathers command that a "perfect sacrifice", without Blemish, shed His Blood for the sins of the people.

He learned obedience from the things He suffered just as all humans learn obedience by the things they suffered, only Him without sin.

And He became the Firstfruit of all those other Humans, who would repent of their sins and "follow" Him, like the Apostle Paul wrote:

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Just as the Author of my faith did.

So why do people keep saying you do not believe Jesus is God?

And thank you for answering

 

[TruthTalk]

"Just more deflection." If you can keep pointing your finger at me, you wont have to address the questions posed to you. A very old, yet affective tactic to change the subject.

"I believe I shall be saved", but I am not yet immortal as the serpent convinced Eve.

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."
Proverbs9:10​

Studyman please, It s because of your fake gospel that people do not answer your questions it is not because they are using a tactic of deflection. It is statements like this, "I believe I shall be saved" that people shut you off. You are pushing a fake gospel that has no resemblance of the Gospel of Salvation in the bible.

True believers and followers of Jesus Christ have "Eternity set in their Heart" and put their by their Creator which is an attribute of God. Frankly nobody cares or believes what you say and they are not willing to go point to point with you in a debate because you are so off the gospel truth.

Never have I heard a fake gospel so contrary to the bible than yours. You may get a bigger pay off if you will do like decon says; get a monkey and an organ grinder and go to Bombay and peddle your junk theology there. Otherwise do like the Apostle Pauls say's in Acts17:30,31, "but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."

Acts:17:30,31
30) In the past God overlooked such ignorance, "but now he commands all people everywhere to repent." 31) For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Ecclesiastes3:11
"He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end."

Matthew10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[VCO]

YEAH, I found a Site we I can POST LARGE posts for free. So I posted the Study I did on: TONGUES -A Non-Charismatic Understanding. I believe the Holy Spirit helped me write that after I studied Books, Tapes, and a Personal Interview, for 6 months, before I put the Pen to the Paper. Here is the Website where You can get a copy of this Serious Non-Charismatic View Point. I DO NOT WANT ANY ARGUMENT with any of those who believe it is real, so you may not want to read it, BUT IT IS A REAL SERIOUS STUDY OF WHY WE DO NOT BELIEVE IT IS REAL. The site is SLOW and Jerky, so you man want to download it.

https://www.scribd.com/document/391898478/TONGUES-A-Non-Charismatic-Understanding-10000

 

[TruthTalk]

"Is Jesus God come to earth,"

I do not play games dude, I asked you a question, Answer it

I did not ask you if you believed in My Jesus, I asked if you believed Jesus is God.

Now you get mad when people do not seem to answer your questions, yet here you go again refusing to answer

Can you for once answer the question?

Is Jesus God come to earth,

or was he a man who was born of mary, which had no diety before or after his birth

it is a SIMPLE question.

Hi E-grateful get ready for a lot of spin and bait and switch; decon, VCO, and myself have had enough of his fake gospel and he will draw you in and then play the blame game with you like he has done with everyone.

God bless!

 

[BillG]

Now that is why I like you Billy, sometimes you ask good questions.

What is the purpose of a "root"? Is it not to nourish and preserve the plant. Isn't it by the Root that the plant lives? If you want to kill a plant, you don't cut off the branches, that will often time result in a greater plant.

No, if you want to kill a plant, you destroy the "root".

Now please open you mind here and see the analogy? Jesus died and was buried. If He were the Root, and the Root was destroyed, then there are no more branches. But He wasn't the Root as a Man, He was a Branch which was nourished by the Root. When they killed the Branch, it didn't kill the Root, it did just the opposite, it made the plant even greater than it was before.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Obedience to what Billy? Is it not the "Word's which proceed from the mouth of God?

John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by Every Word Which Proceeds from the Mouth of God".

He wasn't the Root, He lived by the Root. As He said. Did Jesus, as a Man, live by "Every Word of God"?

This is why He said:

Matt. 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets ( Every Word of God) I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Of course He didn't, this is the Holy Root that nourished HIM, why would He destroy that which nourished Him?.

Rom. 11:16 For if the firstfruit (Jesus the risen, the first Human ever given immortality) be holy, the lump (Jesus the Man) is also holy: and if the root ( that which nourished the firstfruit) be holy, so are the branches. (Everyone who is nourished by the SAME ROOT.)

Rom. 3:
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. (Holy Root Jesus LIVED by)

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let (Every Word of) God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Please consider these Word's Billy.

Heb. 5:
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

But this isn't what Decon and his buddies teach. No, they are eternally saved already and already immortal. But the Man Jesus, my Lord, wasn't so high minded was He.
did He seek comfort in Himself, Since you teach He was the Root? Or did He seek unto Him which was already established, already existed?

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Obedience to what? Himself? Or a "Root" that already existed?

9 And being made perfect, (By what, Himself, or the Word's of God already spoken?) he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God ( The Holy Root) and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Grafted into the "Tree of Life" nourished by the Holy Root.

Now you asked the question and I gave you my heartfelt, honest answer. Please return the Love and address the questions I asked?

Ok here are my thoughts.

Firstly we all know that Jesus is the vine.
Belivers are branches in the vine.
The vine nourishes the branches and not the other way around.
We bear fruit because of the vine.

I posted verses a few posts back

John 1:1-5
The Eternal Word
(Gen. 1:1—2:3)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

John 1:14

The Word Becomes Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

So we see that the word (Jesus) was there in the beginning, he was with God and was God and all things were made through him.
If he was not there then nothing would have been made.
So the word which is God came in the flesh.
So we have God the Father, God the son and

Matthew 3:16
16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

So is that one God manifest in 3 person's?

I believe so.

So for me did Jesus need to be grafted into the root?
I don't believe so.
Why does he need to be grafted into something that he already was and knew that he would be from the beginning?

Yes he had to die in order for us branches to be grafted into him, the vine.
But if as the Bible says he was there in the beginning he already knew that.

Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

You see Jesus was not destroyed.
Yes he was battered, beaten, despised, spat on, laughed at.
He took everything that Satan threw at him on the cross, every sin that could be committed and had been committed were placed upon him for those 3 hours.

But he knew that would happen, he told the disciples in advance, but he also told them "I will be back and when I go back to my throne I will send you Holy Spirit"

The doctrine of Jesus is not foremost about obedience but about faith in him which leads to obedience.

John 6:29-35
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ”
32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

John 3:16-17
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

So yes God wants our obedience.
Not to be saved but it's evident that we have placed true faith in Jesus.
Further obedience and works are as a result of love.
He wants to push us from Phileo to Agape.
Just like he did with Peter, yet he accepted Peters three responses of Phileo when Jesus asked him "Do you love me"

Jesus said "If you love me you will"

Yet we know that Jesus rejected those who claimed great works because he never knew them.

To know someone is to have relationship, to have relationship is to love the other.

As Jesus said, love God, love your neighbor, love your enemies. Do good to those who persecute you, go the extra mile and so on.

I hope I have addressed your questions?

 

[Studyman]

So why do people keep saying you do not believe Jesus is God?

And thank you for answering

I'm still wondering why people preach the Pharisees were trying to "earn" salvation by obeying God. Why they create images of God in the likeness of man, why they create their own High Days, etc. If I believe in the Word's of God and get my answer to these questions from Him, it makes perfect sense given my experience with myself. But quoting Him on this forum stirs up a lot of anger from many.

I think, given the history of man given us as examples for our admonition, that man is very protective of their religious traditions, and do not give them up easily, and, as it is written, defend, protect and preserve them against any words, even the Word's of God from His Prophets, and even His own Son.

I fought this battle almost 30 years ago, and still fight it in areas of my life, it is still a battle. Humiliation for the Christ's Sake is not fun but is the perfect pride killer IMO. But pride is a very powerful enemy, and won't go without a fight.

I think religious men have been convinced they are all set, and are no longer in need of His Word, as Eve was convinced. But when a man is "Convinced" of something, it is hard to "deny themselves" and submit to God's Word. I think the Pharisees were a perfect example of this.

Posthuman, who I disagree with scripturally on almost everything, wrote a great analogy today.

If you find one button out of place on a shirt, the best way to fix it is to unbutton the whole shirt and start again from the bottom.

If that one is right, go to the next and so on.

I know the Pharisees were trying to "earn" Salvation just as those in Matt. 7. But it was not by following the same Path Abraham walked, they were convinced of a different way as Jesus clearly pointed out.

If you believe the deception that they were trying to obey God, and not their own religion which mixed some of God's Word with man's traditions, then everything you build on this deception is wrong as well.

Try telling this to Levite Priests who have been following the same religious traditions (shirt buttoned the same way) for centuries, then try telling this to a preacher today that has done the same.

 

[BillG]

I'm still wondering why people preach the Pharisees were trying to "earn" salvation by obeying God. Why they create images of God in the likeness of man, why they create their own High Days, etc. If I believe in the Word's of God and get my answer to these questions from Him, it makes perfect sense given my experience with myself. But quoting Him on this forum stirs up a lot of anger from many.

I think the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation.
After all they believed in

Acts 23:8-9
8 For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection—and no angel or spirit; but the Pharisees confess both. 9 Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees’ party arose and protested, saying, “We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God.”

Yet the Sadducees did not.

The thing is for me is that that they kept the letter of the law but added to it for personal gain, which Jesus rebuked them for.

After all it was easy to do so.
Those who listen to them would have accepted it because they were teaching the law.

So they were sheep in wolves clothing.
They did not serve God, they served themselves, personal gain.

 

[dcontroversal]

For those who teach salvation can be lost or forfeit...

I will make one post in this thread and after that good luck if you believe salvation can be lost.....

It is MORE absurd and IGNORANT to believe salvation can be lost based upon the following truths, promises and words that MUST BE REJECTED, DENIED, TWISTED or TRAMPLED UNDER FOOT......FOR salvation to be lost the following MUST be false.

a. I will NEVER leave thee nor FORSAKE THEE
b. We are SAVED to the UTTERMOST
c. WE are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD THROUGH FAITH
d. IF WE believe NOT (AFTER FAITH) HE abides faithful because HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF
e. We are in the SON'S HAND<-NO MAN can yank us away
f. We are in the FATHER's HAND<-NO man can YANK us away
g. We are sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT of PROMISE UNTO the DAY of REDEMPTION
h. WE are born of INCORRUPTIBLE SEED by the HOLY SPIRIT from ABOVE
I. THE GIFTS of GOD are IRREVOCABLE
J. SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT
k. WE are given ETERNAL LIFE <-NOT temporal based upon performance
l. OUR freely given LIFE is EVERLASTING <-NOT temporal based upon performance
m. NOTHING shall separate us from the LOVE OF GOD
n. JESUS said he will LOSE NOTHING but will RAISE IT UP THE LAST DAY
o. WHATSOEVER GOD does is EVERLASTING <- including SAVING US
p. HE that believes on the SON IS HAVING EVERLASTING LIFE
q. THESE things are written that YOU MAY KNOW YOU HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE
r. WE ARE JUSTIFIED ETERNALLY by the BLOOD of CHRIST dia FAITH
s. WE are Sanctified in Christ positionally and ETERNALLY <--SEE HEBREWS
t. JESUS will leave the 99 to FIND US if we walk AWAY
u. WE are chastened for disobedience NOT CAST AWAY
v. SOME have works of wood, hay and stubble yet are SAVED SO A BY FIRE
w. THE prodigal was a SON and ALIVE throughout the WHOLE PROCESS and only PERCEIVED as dead and still received as a SON
x. IF we are in Christ we are NOT CONDEMNED <-John and Romans
y. SALVATION is spoken of in ALL THREE verb tenses and a PERFECT TENSE VERB = PRESENT continuing result from a past completed action
z. He that BEGAN a good work of FAITH in YOU will FINISH that which he started

AND ON and ON and ON and ON.........EVERY ONE of the above truths must be denied, rejected or twisted out of context to believe the drivel that salvation can be lost and this is just off the top of my head at 8 am with no coffee yet......There are NO verses IN context that teach a salvation that can be lost like a coin at the local park.....and those who peddle such are akin to a street organ player with a dancing monkey in Calcutta playing and dancing for said COIN......

It must be tragic to serve such a weak, inept god that cannot keep you saved or one that needs help to maintain that which already IS by faith..........

 

[calibob]

I have found something that may add clarity to some and fury from others. her goes. Remember; I didn't say it. I read it and think it's worthy of sharing. ​

 

[Argueless]

Who do you believe "receives God's grace in vain" and how exactly does someone receive God's grace in vain? Also, what do you believe the outcome is for such a person?

If someone teaches that we are saved "based on the merits of our obedience/works" then they are working for their salvation (salvation by works). I've noticed that whenever someone says they believe in OSAS others who strongly oppose OSAS quickly say such people are lawless and are teaching a license to sin. Both antinomianism and legalism are errant extremes.

Have you perfectly obeyed ALL of God's commandments and do you consider that to be the "basis or means" by which you will receive eternal life?

Genuine believers "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - watch over, guard, keep intact) His commandments as the demonstrative evidence of having come to know Him and not as the meritorious means of receiving eternal life. *In 1 John 2:3, we read - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (demonstrative evidence) if we keep (watch over, guard, keep intact) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

*Salvation is not obtained by sinless, perfect obedience to all of God's commandments. None of us have perfectly obeyed all of God's commandments - (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10). Salvation is obtained through faith in Christ and is not based on the merits of our performance/obedience/works. (Romans 3:22-28; 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

We are saved by grace through FAITH IN CHRIST ALONE and NOT BY WORKS (Romans 3:22-28; 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).


Thank you mailmandan. You have just proven my point.

For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord .Jude 1:4

Listening and Doing
My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does. If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. James 1:19-27

“You have said harsh things against me,” says the Lord. “Yet you ask, ‘What have we said against you?’ “You have said, ‘It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by carrying out his requirements and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty? But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.’” Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name. “They will be mine,” says the Lord Almighty, “in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not. Malachi 3:13-18

Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

 

[calibob]

For those who teach salvation can be lost or forfeit...

I will make one post in this thread and after that good luck if you believe salvation can be lost.....

It is MORE absurd and IGNORANT to believe salvation can be lost based upon the following truths, promises and words that MUST BE REJECTED, DENIED, TWISTED or TRAMPLED UNDER FOOT......FOR salvation to be lost the following MUST be false.

a. I will NEVER leave thee nor FORSAKE THEE
b. We are SAVED to the UTTERMOST
c. WE are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD THROUGH FAITH
d. IF WE believe NOT (AFTER FAITH) HE abides faithful because HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF
e. We are in the SON'S HAND<-NO MAN can yank us away
f. We are in the FATHER's HAND<-NO man can YANK us away
g. We are sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT of PROMISE UNTO the DAY of REDEMPTION
h. WE are born of INCORRUPTIBLE SEED by the HOLY SPIRIT from ABOVE
I. THE GIFTS of GOD are IRREVOCABLE
J. SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT
k. WE are given ETERNAL LIFE <-NOT temporal based upon performance
l. OUR freely given LIFE is EVERLASTING <-NOT temporal based upon performance
m. NOTHING shall separate us from the LOVE OF GOD
n. JESUS said he will LOSE NOTHING but will RAISE IT UP THE LAST DAY
o. WHATSOEVER GOD does is EVERLASTING <- including SAVING US
p. HE that believes on the SON IS HAVING EVERLASTING LIFE
q. THESE things are written that YOU MAY KNOW YOU HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE
r. WE ARE JUSTIFIED ETERNALLY by the BLOOD of CHRIST dia FAITH
s. WE are Sanctified in Christ positionally and ETERNALLY <--SEE HEBREWS
t. JESUS will leave the 99 to FIND US if we walk AWAY
u. WE are chastened for disobedience NOT CAST AWAY
v. SOME have works of wood, hay and stubble yet are SAVED SO A BY FIRE
w. THE prodigal was a SON and ALIVE throughout the WHOLE PROCESS and only PERCEIVED as dead and still received as a SON
x. IF we are in Christ we are NOT CONDEMNED <-John and Romans
y. SALVATION is spoken of in ALL THREE verb tenses and a PERFECT TENSE VERB = PRESENT continuing result from a past completed action
z. He that BEGAN a good work of FAITH in YOU will FINISH that which he started

AND ON and ON and ON and ON.........EVERY ONE of the above truths must be denied, rejected or twisted out of context to believe the drivel that salvation can be lost and this is just off the top of my head at 8 am with no coffee yet......There are NO verses IN context that teach a salvation that can be lost like a coin at the local park.....and those who peddle such are akin to a street organ player with a dancing monkey in Calcutta playing and dancing for said COIN......

It must be tragic to serve such a weak, inept god that cannot keep you saved or one that needs help to maintain that which already IS by faith..........

I a person believes salvation can be lost through lack of works I think they are full of beans but they won't lose their salvation for being full of beans either. Those that think salvation can be gained by works without faith, well I don't want go on that ride because the destination is deep in a lake...of fire. Like it or not, the song 'Stairway to Heaven" was written about such a person. Most people don really listen to lyrics any more and som delusional people clam to hear satanic messages. I have a word for them, LITHIUM!

 

[Ariel82]

My favorite Christian band is Casting Crowns because we will one day toss our crowns at the feet of Jesus.

 

[Argueless]

My favorite Christian band is Casting Crowns because we will one day toss our crowns at the feet of Jesus.

My favouite too.

"If we are the body

" The voice of truth

"Beautiful Savoir

"The WORD is alive"

 

[Studyman]

="BillG, post: 3748962, member: 252071"]Ok here are my thoughts.

Firstly we all know that Jesus is the vine.
Belivers are branches in the vine.
The vine nourishes the branches and not the other way around.
We bear fruit because of the vine.

You are changing the subject here Billy and it is very important to get the foundation right first. Jesus is the vine but the vine is nourished by the Root. Romans 11 is speaking of the "Good Olive Tree". Not just any fruit Billy, but olives. Olive tree produces fruit that is then refined to produce olive oil, a very clean burning oil which creates light. This is why they produced olives.

Gen. 8:10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;
11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.

Ex. 27:20 And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always.

Deut 24:20 When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow. (Gentiles)

Let's get what the "ROOT is first, then we can speak to what the Root nourishes. You asked "what is the Root", lets not change the subject.

I posted verses a few posts back

John 1:1-5
The Eternal Word
(Gen. 1:1—2:3)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

John 1:14

The Word Becomes Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

So we see that the word (Jesus) was there in the beginning, he was with God and was God and all things were made through him.
If he was not there then nothing would have been made.
So the word which is God came in the flesh.
So we have God the Father, God the son and

Matthew 3:16
16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

So is that one God manifest in 3 person's?

I believe so.

Matt. 3:
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he (John) saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


So you believe Jesus was an immortal God at 30 years old, and yet He didn't have the Holy Spirit? If He was the Holy spirit, and God the Father, and God the Son, why did God have to send it to Him? And before this day, are you teaching that He didn't have the spirit of God? How can He be God, and not have the Spirit of God.

So for me did Jesus need to be grafted into the root?
I don't believe so.
Why does he need to be grafted into something that he already was and knew that he would be from the beginning?

Yes he had to die in order for us branches to be grafted into him, the vine.
But if as the Bible says he was there in the beginning he already knew that.

God can not die. Are you saying He faked death? Was His sweating blood just a ruse? Was His earnest prayers to God just a pretense?

I don't believe so. I think He was flesh and blood just like you and me, only He never disobeyed God. I think the Power He had God gave to Him just as He gave others who trusted in Him, like Moses and Joshua and Sampson and David. I believe His Faith in God is what got Him through His Great Test, and He had great victory.

Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

You see Jesus was not destroyed.
Yes he was battered, beaten, despised, spat on, laughed at.
He took everything that Satan threw at him on the cross, every sin that could be committed and had been committed were placed upon him for those 3 hours.

But he knew that would happen, he told the disciples in advance, but he also told them "I will be back and when I go back to my throne I will send you Holy Spirit"

I believe He was a man, and that He died. To believe He wasn't a man, but an immortal God, is to believe He really never died. So God didn't "Resurrect" Him from the dead, as it is written, He just faked death for 3 days then rolled the stone from the grave and went on. So we can't really "die with Him", because He really never died.

So then the whole "Death and resurrection" story is really just a myth. You see, I don't believe that He cheated. I believe the wages of sin is death, but He never sinned, therefore death could not hold Him.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

The doctrine of Jesus is not foremost about obedience but about faith in him which leads to obedience.

John 6:29-35
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ”
32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

You believe this because you don't believe in the Root, or that the Firstfruit is the First Human to overcome sin. Or that we all are to be Grafted into it, and partake with THEM that are the Branches.

Your Jesus, was not grafted into the Holy Root, He was not the First Human to overcome sin, He wasn't even Flesh and Blood, but an immortal God. I don't say this to offend, but to ask you, did your Jesus really fake death? Was the sweat of Blood really just a show?

Or did He speak the truth when He said "Salvation is of the Jews" "Unto them was given the oracles of God" (Holy Root) The first Fruit Lived by.

John 3:16-17
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

When did God send His Son? Did the Son not create "ALL THINGS"? Did the Word of God create "ALL THINGS" on His own, or did the Father instruct Him. Who created the Root? Was it not the Word of God which became Flesh? Was not Abraham grafted into the same Root of the "Good Olive Tree"? It is this Word of God, which became Flesh and Blood that I worship. It is the Same Root that nourished Him, that nourished all the Faithful of the Bible, that nourishes me. It is the Olive Tree that is nourished by this Root that I hope to be grafted into, not another.

So yes God wants our obedience.
Not to be saved but it's evident that we have placed true faith in Jesus.
Further obedience and works are as a result of love.
He wants to push us from Phileo to Agape.
Just like he did with Peter, yet he accepted Peters three responses of Phileo when Jesus asked him "Do you love me"

Jesus said "If you love me you will"

Yet we know that Jesus rejected those who claimed great works because he never knew them.

To know someone is to have relationship, to have relationship is to love the other.

As Jesus said, love God, love your neighbor, love your enemies. Do good to those who persecute you, go the extra mile and so on.

I hope I have addressed your questions?

It was a nice sermon, but you completely ignored the entirety of my post, and changed the subject and never even addressed my question.

"did He seek comfort in Himself, Since you teach He was the Root? Or did He seek unto Him which was already established, already existed?"

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

 

[Studyman]

I think the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation.
After all they believed in

Acts 23:8-9
8 For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection—and no angel or spirit; but the Pharisees confess both. 9 Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees’ party arose and protested, saying, “We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God.”

Yet the Sadducees did not.

The thing is for me is that that they kept the letter of the law but added to it for personal gain, which Jesus rebuked them for.

After all it was easy to do so.
Those who listen to them would have accepted it because they were teaching the law.

So they were sheep in wolves clothing.
They did not serve God, they served themselves, personal gain.

That is your religion, and a very popular teaching. But Jesus said they didn't keep the Letter of the Law and just added some things. You preach this, Decon, G9, MMD, the Pope, Jimmy Swaggert, you all preach this.

But Jesus taught.

Matt. 15:
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not God as you just said)

Matt. 23:4 For they (Pharisees, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

But you all preach it is God who places heavy burdens and grievous to be born.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

But you just said the are trying to "Earn" Salvation by following the "Letter of the Law" only just adding to it for personal gain.

You said they were "Serving themselves" for personal Gain.

John 8:
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

But Jesus said they were serving their father, the devil.

So Billy, if I were to follow your Religion, I would have to erase these Word's of My Savior, be convinced He was a fraud and cheated on His mission that He declared was "Finished" at His death, which really never happened, I would have to believe He followed His own doctrine, and not the Doctrine of His Father. And then I would have to believe He destroyed the Law and Prophets which forbids creating images of God in the likeness of man, creating our own High Days, rejecting His Sabbath that He created for me, and also be convinced that I am immortal and nothing I can do, nothing Jesus says or God Almighty can change it.

Surely you can see how a man should consider a religion which does these things. This is why Jesus said at the end of His Word, "Come out of her My People".

 

[Ariel82]

Revelation 22:16

"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

 

[Ariel82]

If you reject the triune nature of God, then you have a messed up gospel because you can't understand the agape love demonstrated by Jesus death on the Cross or his birth as a baby in Bethlehem.

 

[theanointedsinner]

For those who teach salvation can be lost or forfeit...

I will make one post in this thread and after that good luck if you believe salvation can be lost.....

It is MORE absurd and IGNORANT to believe salvation can be lost based upon the following truths, promises and words that MUST BE REJECTED, DENIED, TWISTED or TRAMPLED UNDER FOOT......FOR salvation to be lost the following MUST be false.

a. I will NEVER leave thee nor FORSAKE THEE
b. We are SAVED to the UTTERMOST
c. WE are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD THROUGH FAITH
d. IF WE believe NOT (AFTER FAITH) HE abides faithful because HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF
e. We are in the SON'S HAND<-NO MAN can yank us away
f. We are in the FATHER's HAND<-NO man can YANK us away
g. We are sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT of PROMISE UNTO the DAY of REDEMPTION
h. WE are born of INCORRUPTIBLE SEED by the HOLY SPIRIT from ABOVE
I. THE GIFTS of GOD are IRREVOCABLE
J. SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT
k. WE are given ETERNAL LIFE <-NOT temporal based upon performance
l. OUR freely given LIFE is EVERLASTING <-NOT temporal based upon performance
m. NOTHING shall separate us from the LOVE OF GOD
n. JESUS said he will LOSE NOTHING but will RAISE IT UP THE LAST DAY
o. WHATSOEVER GOD does is EVERLASTING <- including SAVING US
p. HE that believes on the SON IS HAVING EVERLASTING LIFE
q. THESE things are written that YOU MAY KNOW YOU HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE
r. WE ARE JUSTIFIED ETERNALLY by the BLOOD of CHRIST dia FAITH
s. WE are Sanctified in Christ positionally and ETERNALLY <--SEE HEBREWS
t. JESUS will leave the 99 to FIND US if we walk AWAY
u. WE are chastened for disobedience NOT CAST AWAY
v. SOME have works of wood, hay and stubble yet are SAVED SO A BY FIRE
w. THE prodigal was a SON and ALIVE throughout the WHOLE PROCESS and only PERCEIVED as dead and still received as a SON
x. IF we are in Christ we are NOT CONDEMNED <-John and Romans
y. SALVATION is spoken of in ALL THREE verb tenses and a PERFECT TENSE VERB = PRESENT continuing result from a past completed action
z. He that BEGAN a good work of FAITH in YOU will FINISH that which he started

AND ON and ON and ON and ON.........EVERY ONE of the above truths must be denied, rejected or twisted out of context to believe the drivel that salvation can be lost and this is just off the top of my head at 8 am with no coffee yet......There are NO verses IN context that teach a salvation that can be lost like a coin at the local park.....and those who peddle such are akin to a street organ player with a dancing monkey in Calcutta playing and dancing for said COIN......

It must be tragic to serve such a weak, inept god that cannot keep you saved or one that needs help to maintain that which already IS by faith..........

for those who believe that salvation is losable, may they be protected from The Hulk

245 × 160