Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

No it's not simple at all. I don't understand it, but I do agree.

The only reason we obey God is because He first loved us and has enable us to obey out of love. Not to please Him but because He has told us we are wonderfully made for His purposes, we are His beloved children.

Nothing we do can make Him love us more, because He loves us so much already.

That doesn't make what we do worthless. It means what we do is not for a paycheck but an act of agape love to the world in order to show God's grace and light to a world steeped in hate and lies and darkness.

Amen, I love the way you put this.

the problem is, there are people here who say we obey God out of obligation and debt, that if we fail to live up to some standard, God will no longer love us as children and turn away from us, ultimately denying he ever knew us, and sending us with Satans children to hell.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

even sociopaths can be saved?

If God can save Saul, and make him Paul, He can save anyone.

 

[Argueless]

“If you love me, you will obey what I command.(john 14:15)

If I will obey God, do I love Him or not?

You say that only those who have a genuine saving FAITH will and can obey God. If I am obeying God, do I have a genuine saving FAITH?

IF I CLAIM, to have a genuine saving FAITH but I would teach and preach that salvation is by grace through faith ALONE void of any sort of good works of righteousness which includes obedience to God's laws and commands, DO I REALLY LOVE GOD?

Didn't Jesus say that:

Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. John 14:21,23-24

To preach the gospel unto all nations...and teach them to obey
Matthew 28 :18-20

...that if we want to enter LIFE, we should obey the commandments
Matthew 19-16-

...that if anyone does not take his cross and follow Him is not worthy of Him. Matthew 13:37-42

Now, apostle John said:

If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 1 John 1:6

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. 2 John 1:6

So how does the bible call those who do not practice what they preach? Matthew 23:2

Thus the apostle Paul said;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Ephesians 5:6

a note for you to consider

If you can be worthy of Gods grace, You no longer need grace, you have earned a reward.

To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 3:1-6

 

[Ariel82]

2 Corinthians 6:1–18

6 We then, as aworkers together with Him also bplead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain. 2 For He says:

c“In an acceptable time I have heard you,

And in the day of salvation I have helped you.”

Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

3 dWe give no offense in anything, that our ministry may not be blamed. 4 But in all things we commend ourselves eas ministers of God: in much 1patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses, 5 fin stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in fastings; 6 by purity, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Spirit, by 2sincere love, 7 gby the word of truth, by hthe power of God, by ithe armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, 8 by honor and dishonor, by evil report and good report; as deceivers, and yet true; 9 as unknown, and jyet well known; kas dying, and behold we live; las chastened, and yet not killed; 10 as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many mrich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

 

[Ariel82]

Hey sis! Hope you found that safe place

Among my brothers and sisters in Christ, I always feel safe because Jesus promised to be with us when we gather together.

We are worthy because God makes us worthy.

How are we coworkers for our salvation?

The Bible says: we called out to Him and He heard us and saved us.

 

[gb9]

a note for you to consider

If you can be worthy of Gods grace, You no longer need grace, you have earned a reward.

the narrow path e.g. many are called. few find it.

people cannot accept that salvation through faith in Christ is a gift. they think they have to earn it or maintain it. they have to interject self into the equation. but, not of ourselves . a gift.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

“If you love me, you will obey what I command.(john 14:15)

If I will obey God, do I love Him or not?

You say that only those who have a genuine saving FAITH will and can obey God. If I am obeying God, do I have a genuine saving FAITH?

IF I CLAIM, to have a genuine saving FAITH but I would teach and preach that salvation is by grace through faith ALONE void of any sort of good works of righteousness which includes obedience to God's laws and commands, DO I REALLY LOVE GOD?

Didn't Jesus say that:

Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. John 14:21,23-24

To preach the gospel unto all nations...and teach them to obey
Matthew 28 :18-20

...that if we want to enter LIFE, we should obey the commandments
Matthew 19-16-

...that if anyone does not take his cross and follow Him is not worthy of Him. Matthew 13:37-42

Now, apostle John said:

If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 1 John 1:6

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. 2 John 1:6

So how does the bible call those who do not practice what they preach? Matthew 23:2

Thus the apostle Paul said;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Ephesians 5:6

To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 3:1-6

We love because God loved us first.

Obeying in order to receive something is self righteousness. Obeying because of faith, not looking for anything in return, is Gods righteousness.

A child of God can not live in sin (see the epistles of John) one who sins has never seen God or known him.

Not everyone who claims to be God children are saved.

 

[mailmandan]

As God's co- wórkers, we urge you NOT TO PUT GOD'S GRACE IN VAIN.

As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2 Corinthians 6:1

Who do you believe "receives God's grace in vain" and how exactly does someone receive God's grace in vain? Also, what do you believe the outcome is for such a person?

I noticed that whenever someone speaks or teach about obedience to God, you and the others who believe in OSAS would quickly say that they are working for their own salvation, call them Pharisees, sinless perfectionists and several other names for whatever reason or intent.

If someone teaches that we are saved "based on the merits of our obedience/works" then they are working for their salvation (salvation by works). I've noticed that whenever someone says they believe in OSAS others who strongly oppose OSAS quickly say such people are lawless and are teaching a license to sin. Both antinomianism and legalism are errant extremes.

What confuses me is when your group say that only genuine believers or born again will or can obey the commandments. If I obey the commandments and teach others to do so, am I not a genuine believer?

Have you perfectly obeyed ALL of God's commandments and do you consider that to be the "basis or means" by which you will receive eternal life?

Genuine believers "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - watch over, guard, keep intact) His commandments as the demonstrative evidence of having come to know Him and not as the meritorious means of receiving eternal life. *In 1 John 2:3, we read - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (demonstrative evidence) if we keep (watch over, guard, keep intact) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

*Salvation is not obtained by sinless, perfect obedience to all of God's commandments. None of us have perfectly obeyed all of God's commandments - (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10). Salvation is obtained through faith in Christ and is not based on the merits of our performance/obedience/works. (Romans 3:22-28; 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Which would you prefer, to claim that you are saved forever by grace through faith ALONE or obey the commandments that God has given us to do which is to LOVE God and our brothers?

We are saved by grace through FAITH IN CHRIST ALONE and NOT BY WORKS (Romans 3:22-28; 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

I believe that the free gift is eternal life IN Jesus. (romans 6:23) We should be IN Christ Jesus to get eternal life.

...what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to ENTER LIFE, obey the commandments.” matthew 19:16-17

Jesus is the LIFE that we must ENTER (john 14:6) and if we want to be IN Jesus we must obey the commandments.

Must or else" obey the commandments and you claim not to teach salvation by works?

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. If you want to be IN Christ you need to believe the gospel. Everyone has failed to "perfectly obey" the commandments and that's not how we enter into the body of Christ.

I have often heard works-salvationists cite Matthew 19:16-17 (including Roman Catholics and Mormons) and imply that faith in Christ is insufficient to save and we MUST ALSO obey Him commandments in order to be saved. In Matthew 19, Jesus showed the rich young man how short he falls of even keeping the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy; Matthew 22:37). The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus. (John 3:18)

The rich young man missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell as he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life through faith in Christ. If keeping the commandments is the basis or means by which we obtain eternal life, then why isn't this the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - "keep the commandments and you will be saved," yet that's not what Paul said. Paul said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.." Numerous times, Jesus said "BELIEVING IN HIM" is the basis or means by which we receive eternal life (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). So which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Believing/trusting in your "best efforts to obey the commandments" as the meritorious means of obtaining eternal life is not believing/trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation (John 3:16; Acts 10:43; 16:31), but is believing/trusting in WORKS for salvation. Jesus knows the hearts of all men and has responded to individuals in the Bible a little differently because He knows where their need is. Jesus didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young man in the exact same manner, yet the consistent pattern in Scripture is salvation through faith, NOT WORKS (Romans 3:22-28; 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

How would we know we are IN Jesus?

This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. (1 john 2:1-6)

The preceeding verses makes it clear that to WALK as Jesus did means OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDMENTS.

Everything with you is about "obedience to His commandments" and is "must or else." It certainly appears that you are trusting in WORKS for salvation and have not yet placed your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in JESUS CHRIST ALONE for salvation.

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (watch over, guard, keep intact) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. (NASB) Numerous translations say ought or should, but it's always "must or else" with you. *Obedience is not forced or legalistic for those who have come to know Him/those who are born of God.

Jesus is the author of eternal salvation for those who OBEY Him.

...and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him hebrews 5:7-10

Hebrews 5:9 is another favorite verse of works-salvationists who use it to teach "salvation by faith + obedience/works" by writing a blank check with the word "obey" then filling out whatever amount of works they feel are necessary to obtain eternal life.

In Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? *Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by "keeping" (Greek word "tereo" - guarding, observing, watching over) His commandments and practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). *In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; 1:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. *So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

FAITH AND OBEDIENCE ARE BOTH ESSENTIAL TO SALVATION.

So how much obedience does it take? How much obedience must we accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to "help" Him save us?

*Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. *No supplements needed. (Romans 3:22-28)

...And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.hebrews 11:6

How do you "define" faith? Faith + obedience/works?

...As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. james 2:26

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus, Romans 8:1

*See Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12:13.

 

[Studyman]

i asked you a very simple yes/no question:



you answered with an implied slur & causeless curse against me:



i forgive your sins against me even though you don't repent.
it is no big thing to me for you to judge and curse me.
but i don't see that you addressed this very simple question:

is Jesus Christ "good" ?
is He ever not good?

i'm not trying to trap you in anything or insult you.
i'm trying to lead you to praise Him in truth and spirit --
the answer to this question leads to great edification for all of us.
your insults are not important. talking about Christ is what is important,
because knowing Him is life.

so would you mind answering it?

is Christ "good" ?
is He ever not good?

I agree that your many insults are not important.

And I would love to have honest, unbiased discussions about His Word's anytime.

He said "Don't call ME, (a human being) Good, there is one good, that is God.. These are His Word's, not mine.

I understand this because like Him, I know and believe what God says a human being is. It was the Word of God that was in Him which was good. Nothing He, as a human, could contribute besides obedience to God, means anything to Him. His life depended on His obedience, and more, the life of everyone depended on His obedience. Obedience not to His human mind, desires, emotions, but obedience to God.

This is why I marvel and am in AWE of Him everyday. How He, as a human, just like me, had a victory over the prince of this world who had occupied the Mainstream Religions of His Time. And all because He Loved me.

And He achieved this, not because He had powers you and I don't have access to, not because He was supernatural as "many" who come in Christ's name preach, but because He trusted His Father with His Life, and this is what true "Faith" is. And with this Faith man can do anything. Even what you all preach is impossible, obeying God as He did.

And anyone who has this kind of Faith can do what He did and more. As He said:

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

So is the Christ Good? Absolutely. But only because He Chose the Works which were "Wrought in God" and not man.

John 10:
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

So I believe the Work's of the Christ are "good" works. But a human is only a vapor, here today, gone tomorrow.

 

[Studyman]

As deceived as one can be....and he boasts of his belief in the word.....If I said what I really think I would get banned.......

doesn't matter if you say it or not, it's still in your heart.

 

[mailmandan]

a note for you to consider

If you can be worthy of Gods grace, You no longer need grace, you have earned a reward.

People who seek to obtain eternal life "based on the merits of their performance/obedience/works" are self righteously looking for credit and seek to be counted as worthy "in of themselves."

In Revelation 3:4, we read about a few names in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Christ in white and are "worthy." Such people are only worthy because they have been "accounted as righteous" through faith (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) and not because they are worthy "in of themselves" based on the merits of their performance/obedience/works (Romans 3:23; 6:23). Take grace, faith and the blood of Christ out of the equation and how many of us are worthy? - 0

Revelation 3:5 mentions "he who overcomes" and in 1 John 5:4, we read - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

People who seek to obtain eternal life "based on the merits of their performance/obedience/works" are self righteously looking for credit and seek to be counted as worthy "in of themselves."

In Revelation 3:4, we read about a few names in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Christ in white and are "worthy." Such people are only worthy because they have been "accounted as righteous" through faith (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) and not because they are worthy "in of themselves" based on the merits of their performance/obedience/works (Romans 3:23; 6:23). Take grace, faith and the blood of Christ out of the equation and how many of us are worthy? - 0

Revelation 3:5 mentions "he who overcomes" and in 1 John 5:4, we read - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Amen, This is foolishness to the wisdom of man, As humans, we feel we must pay for our own mistakes. Receiving grace is against our nature, WHich is why it is so hard. and why it is so easy for satan to pervert the gospel, and get so many people to follow him.

 

[gb9]

I agree that your many insults are not important.

And I would love to have honest, unbiased discussions about His Word's anytime.

He said "Don't call ME, (a human being) Good, there is one good, that is God.. These are His Word's, not mine.

I understand this because like Him, I know and believe what God says a human being is. It was the Word of God that was in Him which was good. Nothing He, as a human, could contribute besides obedience to God, means anything to Him. His life depended on His obedience, and more, the life of everyone depended on His obedience. Obedience not to His human mind, desires, emotions, but obedience to God.

This is why I marvel and am in AWE of Him everyday. How He, as a human, just like me, had a victory over the prince of this world who had occupied the Mainstream Religions of His Time. And all because He Loved me.

And He achieved this, not because He had powers you and I don't have access to, not because He was supernatural as "many" who come in Christ's name preach, but because He trusted His Father with His Life, and this is what true "Faith" is. And with this Faith man can do anything. Even what you all preach is impossible, obeying God as He did.

And anyone who has this kind of Faith can do what He did and more. As He said:

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

So is the Christ Good? Absolutely. But only because He Chose the Works which were "Wrought in God" and not man.

John 10:
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

So I believe the Work's of the Christ are "good" works. But a human is only a vapor, here today, gone tomorrow.

Christ is not only good, he was , God in the flesh. 2nd member of the Trinity,

Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father.

so, as long as you think Jesus is just a good guy, who properly kept the Torah, and set right what the Pharisees had corrupted, and that's it, then you do NOT accept Him as Lord and Savior.

as I said, I see your point- a mere man can save no one. only God in the flesh can. you need to accept this truth.

 

[dcontroversal]

doesn't matter if you say it or not, it's still in your heart.

So what..........does not mean what I think is contrary to scripture.......have you trusted JESUS yet by faith or are you still peddling your man made, self saving, cafe blend religion?

 

[dcontroversal]

People who seek to obtain eternal life "based on the merits of their performance/obedience/works" are self righteously looking for credit and seek to be counted as worthy "in of themselves."

In Revelation 3:4, we read about a few names in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Christ in white and are "worthy." Such people are only worthy because they have been "accounted as righteous" through faith (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) and not because they are worthy "in of themselves" based on the merits of their performance/obedience/works (Romans 3:23; 6:23). Take grace, faith and the blood of Christ out of the equation and how many of us are worthy? - 0

Revelation 3:5 mentions "he who overcomes" and in 1 John 5:4, we read - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Of course the workers for, Cainologists and Pharisees substitute the following for "OUR FAITH"

Our works
Supposed LAW keeping
Supposed commandment keeping
Supposed manifestation of spiritual gifts
My brand of religion
Hoop jumping
Pew Jumping
Sacraments
Hickory Stick church membership
Give the dog a bone religionism
Paying the priest off
FILL in the BLANK spiritualism
ETC..........

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen, This is foolishness to the wisdom of man, As humans, we feel we must pay for our own mistakes. Receiving grace is against our nature, WHich is why it is so hard. and why it is so easy for satan to pervert the gospel, and get so many people to follow him.

Like God said, and men reject by embellishments...

It pleased GOD by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[Studyman]

Hi brother Bill, you are 100 percent correct, Jesus is the root.

Romans15:11,12
11) And again,
“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles;
let all the peoples extol him.”
12) And again, Isaiah says,
“The Root of Jesse" will spring up,
one who will arise to rule over the nations;
in him the Gentiles will hope.”

But TT, the Man Jesus didn't rule over the nations. Men didn't "Extol" Him until the Mainstream Preachers of His time killed Him and He was raised again.

He said He didn't bring His own Doctrine, but His Fathers. He was the Word of God made Flesh. He "followed" a Path already created, He didn't create one as a Man.

John 10:
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

What "Works were these"? When Did He, as a Man, create them? When He was born? When He was 5?

I really don't understand how you can call the Man Jesus, the "Root" when it was by being nourished by the Root that He survived in the first place.

Isn't it true that the Man Jesus "FOLLOWED" a Path already created. And didn't satan and it's children, the Mainstream Religion of His time, try to deceive Him into following the religion they created?

As a Man, Flesh and Blood, was He not the "firstfruit", the first Human to ever to receive immortality from the Father?

Or are you of the religion that preaches He didn't come in the Flesh, that He was already immortal and really lay down His life for me?.

 

[Studyman]

No worries Bill......his JESUS is even worse than the one he mouths.......His JESUS RISKED it ALL and had to be GRAFTED into the root because HIS JESUS, unlike the bible's JESUS, is NOT THE ROOT...........

Yes, my Jesus came in the Flesh and "learned obedience" by the things He suffered, and "laid" down His life for me. And His Father rose Him from the dead.

Your Jesus never came in the Flesh but was an immortal God who didn't really lay down his life, didn't really risk anything for you. It was all just a show so you could make movies about it and sing him happy birthday while you mock and insult those trust the God of the Bible enough to "strive to enter" His Path my Jesus walked.

As I have said many times, we truly do trust in two different Christ's.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But TT, the Man Jesus didn't rule over the nations. Men didn't "Extol" Him until the Mainstream Preachers of His time killed Him and He was raised again.

He said He didn't bring His own Doctrine, but His Fathers. He was the Word of God made Flesh. He "followed" a Path already created, He didn't create one as a Man.

John 10:
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

What "Works were these"? When Did He, as a Man, create them? When He was born? When He was 5?

I really don't understand how you can call the Man Jesus, the "Root" when it was by being nourished by the Root that He survived in the first place.

Isn't it true that the Man Jesus "FOLLOWED" a Path already created. And didn't satan and it's children, the Mainstream Religion of His time, try to deceive Him into following the religion they created?

As a Man, Flesh and Blood, was He not the "firstfruit", the first Human to ever to receive immortality from the Father?

Or are you of the religion that preaches He didn't come in the Flesh, that He was already immortal and really lay down His life for me?.

Do you honestly and truthfully believe Jesus was just a man, and not God?

How could a mere human pay for your sin?

 

[Studyman]

So what was the root that already existed?

Now that is why I like you Billy, sometimes you ask good questions.

What is the purpose of a "root"? Is it not to nourish and preserve the plant. Isn't it by the Root that the plant lives? If you want to kill a plant, you don't cut off the branches, that will often time result in a greater plant.

No, if you want to kill a plant, you destroy the "root".

Now please open you mind here and see the analogy? Jesus died and was buried. If He were the Root, and the Root was destroyed, then there are no more branches. But He wasn't the Root as a Man, He was a Branch which was nourished by the Root. When they killed the Branch, it didn't kill the Root, it did just the opposite, it made the plant even greater than it was before.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Obedience to what Billy? Is it not the "Word's which proceed from the mouth of God?

John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by Every Word Which Proceeds from the Mouth of God".

He wasn't the Root, He lived by the Root. As He said. Did Jesus, as a Man, live by "Every Word of God"?

This is why He said:

Matt. 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets ( Every Word of God) I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Of course He didn't, this is the Holy Root that nourished HIM, why would He destroy that which nourished Him?.

Rom. 11:16 For if the firstfruit (Jesus the risen, the first Human ever given immortality) be holy, the lump (Jesus the Man) is also holy: and if the root ( that which nourished the firstfruit) be holy, so are the branches. (Everyone who is nourished by the SAME ROOT.)

Rom. 3:
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. (Holy Root Jesus LIVED by)

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let (Every Word of) God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Please consider these Word's Billy.

Heb. 5:
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

But this isn't what Decon and his buddies teach. No, they are eternally saved already and already immortal. But the Man Jesus, my Lord, wasn't so high minded was He.
did He seek comfort in Himself, Since you teach He was the Root? Or did He seek unto Him which was already established, already existed?

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Obedience to what? Himself? Or a "Root" that already existed?

9 And being made perfect, (By what, Himself, or the Word's of God already spoken?) he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God ( The Holy Root) and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Grafted into the "Tree of Life" nourished by the Holy Root.

Now you asked the question and I gave you my heartfelt, honest answer. Please return the Love and address the questions I asked?