A place for rapture questions

[TheDivineWatermark]

As I stated, He only "RETURNS" ONCE.

 

[tanakh]

Ahwatukee what about Acts 3:21 that says Jesus must remain in heaven until restitution of all things?

How does that work with the pre-trib model?

ALSO Post-tribbers where are you guys at? I havent had any of them respond? This forum is most likely majority pre-trib. Is that an american thing or is that the case world wide?
Anyhow: in the post-trib model WHO populates the millenium.

I was reading through the book of revelation today and even during the FIRST trumpet ALL green grass was burnt up. If the church is present, WHAT are they going to eat?
Furthermore: Paul tells us that we got to provide for our households and if we dont we are worse than an infidel and have denied the faith and Paul/Peter tells us to obey magistrates and governments. But if the church is in the tribulation how is this possible? You would have to take teh mark of the beast to provide for your family and to obey the governments of that time?

Just a response to your question about the absence of post tribbers on site. There are people on site who hold opposite views to the pre trib rapture. I am one of them, but as you say most of those who shout loudest are pre tribbers. This view is held by some Christian groups around the world but its true to say the majority are found in the US. There are historic reasons for this. I am ashamed to say that this view is one of the few cultic doctrines that started in the UK during the 1830s and was promoted by John Darby a theologian and the founder of a breakaway cult known as the Separated Brethren. According to Charles Spurgeon he was a thoroughly unpleasant individual. Darby brought his views to the US and they were then spread by Cyrus Schofield through his notes and by him convincing Moody to accept the teaching and everything connected with it. Most Christians world wide dont accept the pre trib rapture or the dipensationalist system that goes with it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Notice in the 10 virgin parable they enter the bridal chamber. A place of intense intimacy.
She is with Jesus during the trib.

Matthew 25 (the wedding FEAST parable) does not say "THEY [the 5 virgins PLURAL] "enter the BRIDAL CHAMBER," you are interjecting that idea. This was not the time nor "a place of intimacy," there are FIVE VIRGINS (and these are NOT who He is MARRYING; At that point He will be an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom [the distinction between "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" pertaining to the AORIST "Marriage" itself in Rev19:7, and the "INVITED GUESTS [PLURAL]" "having been invited" (i.e. DURING the trib) in 19:9 at the now-to-occur "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" upon His "RETURN" to the earth, where Matthew 22:10-14 picks up the (next scene in the) CHRONOLOGY, ditto for Matthew 25:10 "wedding FEAST," and ditto for Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal (i.e. the earthly MK)].

Note that the same word (for the PUBLIC event [NOT the "INTIMATE" one involving only the couple]) is used when Jesus and friends attended "the wedding feast of Cana," and where there was ALSO the presence of the "G755 - architriklinō " ('master of the FEAST' / 'headwaiter'), and the word "G355 - anakeimenōn " ('those reclining [plural],' i.e. PLURAL "GUESTS" just as in the Matt22 "FEAST" setting), and that it was the responsibility of the bridegroom to provide the wine at his own "wedding FEAST" (thus Jesus' initial response to His mother in verse Jn2:4b).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Absolutely said:

Notice in the 10 virgin parable they enter the bridal chamber. A place of intense intimacy.
She is with Jesus during the trib.

Notice how Matthew 25:10 uses the "WITH [G3326 - meta - 'accompanying']" word ("and they [PLURAL] went in WITH [G3326] Him to the wedding FEAST" [this is the earthly MK time period])…

whereas [by contrast] in our Rapture passages, it uses the "WITH [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION']" word.

The "intimacy / UNION" idea is completely ABSENT from the Matthew 25 "wedding FEAST" parable.

Plus, the parables almost always pertain to Israel in some way (re: their future).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

...and about that last line I put, Daniel 12:1-4,10 (the whole CONTEXT of the chpt, actually) is about ISRAEL in the FUTURE (DURING the trib years), and note that this chpt contrasts "the WISE [of them] shall understand"… whereas "none of the wicked shall understand" (v.10). And then verse 12 states "BLESSED is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1335 days." [this MK-entrance verse with its "BLESSED" parallels all of the other MK passages re: "BLESSED"--Matt24:46-51,44; Matt25:31-34; [Mk11:10]; Lk12:36-43; Rev16:15-16; Rev19:9 (invited guests-PLURAL); maybe more...]


[compare Dan12:1-4 with Hos5:15-6:3 regarding Israel's FUTURE; these and other passages LIKEN it to a "resurrection" (Rom11:15; Ezek37:12-14,20-23; etc)]

 

[Hevosmies]

More proof for pre-trib rapture:

We are told to obey those in authority, governments and the men should provide for their wives. In the time of Jacob's trouble to fulfill these commands in the epistles of Paul you would have to SUBMIT to the antichrist and take the mark of the beast

Thats more proof there is something DIFFERENT going on there in the book of revelation.

I also noticed that in the epistles there is NO JEW or GENTILE, it doesnt matter there are not much distinctions made. But in the book of Revelation the distinction returns where the 144 000 from the tribes of Israel are mentioned.

Btw a completely unrelated thing: Notice that the tribes that are listed in revelation DO NOT HAve one tribe, the tribe of DAN. Now why is Dan missing? Could it be the antichrist is from that tribe? If you study the OT you will find out that often times the tribe of Dan is associated with NEGATIVE THINGS.
This was something I used to discuss in my judaism days. (Dan being associated with negative things, not the antichrist part lol)

 

[Davenport]

More proof for pre-trib rapture:

More proof to support a blatant lie?

We are told to obey those in authority, governments and the men should provide for their wives. In the time of Jacob's trouble to fulfill these commands in the epistles of Paul you would have to SUBMIT to the antichrist and take the mark of the beast

First, shut up until you find a verse that says there will be a rapture before the tribulation.

Paul said to obey authority when Nero ruled Judea. Nero is about as big an enemy of Christians as there ever was, yet we were still to obey authority. Yes, we are to obey Antichrist authorities (but not to the point of rejecting Christ). If you go to the land of the Antichrist, Israel, you are to obey their Antichrist government, but not necessarily with the eagerness you would.

 

[Locutus]

 

[Hevosmies]

Paul said to obey authority when Nero ruled Judea. Nero is about as big an enemy of Christians as there ever was, yet we were still to obey authority. Yes, we are to obey Antichrist authorities (but not to the point of rejecting Christ). If you go to the land of the Antichrist, Israel, you are to obey their Antichrist government, but not necessarily with the eagerness you would.

Where was the mark of the beast in Nero's day?

I support Israel, always have always will. Its my homeland. Is it wicked now? Yes. But so is every other country.
But in the FUTURE it wont be. When Jesus returns

 

[Maynard]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

As a pre-tribber, I believe our Rapture does not take place at His "RETURN" to the earth ("RETURN" = Lk12:36-37,38,39,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal [i.e. the earthly MK]; and Lk19:12,15,17,19 and the parallels to these). At His "RETURN" He will be an "already-wed Bridegroom" returning FOR "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth; the earthly MK]" (pertaining to the "guests [plural]" etc).

The "one shall be taken, the other left" passages are not addressing our Rapture, as that is not its CONTEXT (but is referring to the time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth [i.e. who will enter the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom upon His "return" there]).

I'm not sure what the above video covers, but it looked like it requires "payment" to view. Not interested, thanks.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

But in the book of Revelation the distinction returns where the 144 000 from the tribes of Israel are mentioned.

Btw a completely unrelated thing: Notice that the tribes that are listed in revelation DO NOT HAve one tribe, the tribe of DAN. Now why is Dan missing? Could it be the antichrist is from that tribe? If you study the OT you will find out that often times the tribe of Dan is associated with NEGATIVE THINGS.
This was something I used to discuss in my judaism days. (Dan being associated with negative things, not the antichrist part lol)

I noticed your additional comment here, and it made me think of another point somebody made (I can't presently recall where I'd heard this, it's been quite awhile…),

...they had said that the unusual order of the listing of tribes in Revelation 7 (not listed in that particular order anywhere in the OT) is listed in this order because (as they suggest) this particular order spells out a sentence (using the meaning of their names [similar to how some point out the same kind of thing regarding the names in Genesis 5]); but here it spells out the purpose of the ministry of the 144,000 [during the future tribulation period/70th Week]. Could be, I guess.

 

[Maynard]

I'm not sure what the above video covers, but it looked like it requires "payment" to view. Not interested, thanks.

No. It's a free video on youtube.

 

[Absolutely]

Oy vey. A man claiming to be infallable?
We are told to test everything, yet your message CANNOT be tested, because you have already deemed it INFALLIBLE.
Does your cult have any followers, or is it just you and a couple of others?

Why isnt your writings in the Bible? Thats odd.

Yep,he claims he cannot make a mistake.
Next step would be to recieve worship.
I have shown him more than once where he was dead wrong,therefore dragging God himself through his pile of error.
It is a sad,sad state.
A great example of lone ranger mavericks. No accountability

 

[Absolutely]

The problem is that neither Jesus Paul or anyone else mentions this divine seven year shuttle service beloved by Dispensationalists
In fact Peter tells his audience in Acts exactly where Jesus was and exactly how long he would be there'

And he shall send Jesus Christ which before was preached unto you
Whom the heaven shall receive until the restitution of all things
which god has spoken by the mouth of all of his Prophets since the
world began

ACTS 3: 20-21

If Christ is to be in Heaven until the restitution of all thing then
he is not going to be making a surprise trip near or on the Earth
seven years prior to that restitution taking place.

In Matthew 24: 29-31 Jesus said that his return would be after the tribulation
not before. He went on to say that the tribes of the earth shall mourn when they
see him and that he would send his Angels to gather his elect from the four winds
from one end of the earth to another.

This goes directly against the current teachings surrounding the rapture.

There is only one second coming not two the clue is in the phrasing
Everyone will know about it. There will be no secret connected with it
We have the exact words of Christ in Matthew. If we don't believe him
who do we believe?

Show me ONE postrib rapture verse.
You have no case.

 

[Absolutely]

I noticed your additional comment here, and it made me think of another point somebody made (I can't presently recall where I'd heard this, it's been quite awhile…),

...they had said that the unusual order of the listing of tribes in Revelation 7 (not listed in that particular order anywhere in the OT) is listed in this order because (as they suggest) this particular order spells out a sentence (using the meaning of their names [similar to how some point out the same kind of thing regarding the names in Genesis 5]); but here it spells out the purpose of the ministry of the 144,000 [during the future tribulation period/70th Week]. Could be, I guess.

What would that purpose be?

 

[Absolutely]

This is a typical sample of gobbligook and scripture twisting beloved by Pre Rapture pundits. There is not one verse
in scripture that endorses the idea that Christ returns twice. Throughout scripture and Church history up until the 19th Century
there is no firm evidence of any notable widespread belief in a pre tribulation rapture. The Didache which is a first century document
records the belief on the subject by the early church. The relevant section states as follows.....

Be watchful over your life, never let your lamps go out or your loins be ungirt but keep your selves always in
readiness for you can never be sure of the hour when our Lord may be coming. Come often together for spiritual
improvement because all of your past years of your faith will be no good to you at the end, unless you have made yourself perfect. In the last days of the world false prophets and deceivers will abound sheep will be perverted and turn into wolves and love will change
to hate, for with the growth of lawlessness men will hate their fellows and persecute them and betray them. Then the deceiver of the world will show himself pretending to be a Son of God and doing signs and wonders and the earth will be delivered into his hands and he will work such wickedness as there has never been since the beginning After that all humankind will come up for their fiery trial multitudes of them will stumble and perish but such as remain steadfast in the faith will be saved by the curse*. And then the signs of the truth will appear first the sign of the opening heavens next the sign of the trumpets voice and thirdly the rising of the dead, not of all the dead , but as it says the Lord will come and with him all his holy ones And then the whole world will see the Lord as he comes riding on the clouds of heaven.

" 'The Curse' is believed to be a reference to Galatians 3:13 where it says Christ was made a curse for us.

The Didache section 2 part 16 From Early Christian Writings by Penguin Classics

There is no mention here of a two stage coming to whisk Christians away before the tribulation. Rather it maintains that
the fiery trial will test peoples faith

....even thoigh postrib rapture can be debunked with one arm tied behind my back.
Way too easy.
Again you have no case

 

[Hevosmies]

Yep,he claims he cannot make a mistake.
Next step would be to recieve worship.
I have shown him more than once where he was dead wrong,therefore dragging God himself through his pile of error.
It is a sad,sad state.
A great example of lone ranger mavericks. No accountability

You are like me then. Believe someone can have a message from God but it needs to be tested.

 

[Absolutely]

 

[Absolutely]

News flash.
Pretribs DO NOT believe what he says we do.

Hint; both views claim Jesus returns after the GT.
He failed to show us a postrib rapture.
The reason is,there is not a single verse pointing to,or claiming such a thing.

I APPROVE THIS MESSAGE.......NO APOLOGIES....LOL