“About The Great Tribulation”
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You are making two different groups of faithful in Christ, in order to fit your pretrib dogma.
There is only one group who are true Israel, and is comprised of all peoples throughout the world who are faithful in Christ, the other is carnal gene line Israel (Romans 9:6-8).
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
There is only one group who are true Israel, and is comprised of all peoples throughout the world who are faithful in Christ, the other is carnal gene line Israel (Romans 9:6-8).
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
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Rom 2:28A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.
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Isaiah 65:11-15 is what happens to the faithless in (love, truth, mercy) carnal gene line Israel.
Isaiah 65:11 But ye are they that forsake the Lord, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
13 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:
14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
Isaiah 65:11 But ye are they that forsake the Lord, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
13 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:
14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
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This is a poor proof-text for replacement theology.
Keep reading to the next chapter....
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
This proof text isnt good for replacement theology either... In Isaac shall thy seed be called. In contrast to Ishmael, who was made in the flesh as a human idea, whereas Isaac was from God's promise.
Keep reading to the next chapter....
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
This proof text isnt good for replacement theology either... In Isaac shall thy seed be called. In contrast to Ishmael, who was made in the flesh as a human idea, whereas Isaac was from God's promise.
I'm just guessing, because they're possessed by lying demons?
Wow, I guess I was a little off.
Revelation calls Jerusalem Sodom and Egypt, i.e. not "thy holy city."
Revelation calls Jews the Synagogue of Satan, i.e. not "thy people."
How can someone be a saint if they're Antichrist? Do you have any scripture to support whatever dumb lie you're going to answer with? If those Antichrist people were saints, how come they weren't raptured?
Daniel's weeks expired in the first century.
I'm going to have to stick with my first guess.
Wow, I guess I was a little off.
Revelation calls Jerusalem Sodom and Egypt, i.e. not "thy holy city."
Revelation calls Jews the Synagogue of Satan, i.e. not "thy people."
How can someone be a saint if they're Antichrist? Do you have any scripture to support whatever dumb lie you're going to answer with? If those Antichrist people were saints, how come they weren't raptured?
Daniel's weeks expired in the first century.
I'm going to have to stick with my first guess.
I am not a pre-tribber. I was taught that in Baptists and Bible churches I attended, but I learned the truth by 1999. My emphasis in ministering during the last 15 years is let us get back to the Basics of Christianity summarized in the Great Two Commandments instead of doing vain disputes and wrongly criticizing. Thanks for the apology. I have made some wrong assumptions, but such is a common problem. I have been a victim of such hundreds of times. God bless you and remember the Holy Spirit is the perfect guide for each of us about what to say and do. He says what He hears (John 16:13) and Who does He hear. Mostly Jesus Christ Who experienced being a human, and so He knows the proper time we each need the divine Truths.
***Very Important Teachings and Commandments By Jesus Christ in ETRSF (7 pgs.) -- https://app.box.com/s/cksquyg7qxohcu2t361lghcd4bm1hbi6
6e Prophecy theories and fulfillments-- https://app.box.com/s/b4f214de6048af2f1b8a
Note: The "1--" and "2--" items are what I considered the best.
What is your interpretation of 2 Thes 2:6-8 'And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume w/the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming'.
SO pre-tribbers are demon possessed? Thats a strong accusation.
Revelation does call Jerusalem that yes. But Jesus also calls Jerusalem "the city of the great King". Jerusalem and Israel are called many good and bad things in the OT as well. MOOT POINT.
I never claimed Christ rejecting Jews are SAINTS. They are antichrist yes. The SAINTS in the book of revelation / Daniel are JEWS that BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ...... Obviously
Who has ever taught from the pre-trib camp that Christ-rejecting jews are saints? SERIOUSLY?
Hence why Romans tells us the promise is through ISAAC, not Ishmael.
Jews are God's chosen people, I rather believe the Bible than your OPINION:
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Enemies yes, as concerning the gospel. But as touching the election, beloved.
Revelation does call Jerusalem that yes. But Jesus also calls Jerusalem "the city of the great King". Jerusalem and Israel are called many good and bad things in the OT as well. MOOT POINT.
I never claimed Christ rejecting Jews are SAINTS. They are antichrist yes. The SAINTS in the book of revelation / Daniel are JEWS that BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ...... Obviously
Who has ever taught from the pre-trib camp that Christ-rejecting jews are saints? SERIOUSLY?
Hence why Romans tells us the promise is through ISAAC, not Ishmael.
Jews are God's chosen people, I rather believe the Bible than your OPINION:
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Enemies yes, as concerning the gospel. But as touching the election, beloved.
Many say that is the Holy Spirit, but who is the Apostle Paul writing to? The Christians in the Thessalonica Church. And they all were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And the context does not indicate that the Day of the Lord is in Revelation 4. But there is a an important signal for the catching up of Believers happens. And 1 Corinthians 15:52 "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
1 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we request you, brothers {and sisters}, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure
or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us,
to the effect that the Day of The Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you,
for {it will not come} unless the apostasy comes first,
and the Man of Lawlessness is revealed, the Son of Destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship,
so that he takes his seat in the Temple of God,
displaying himself as being God.
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6 And you know what restrains him now,
so that in his time he will be revealed.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work;
only he who now restrains {will do so} until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed
whom The Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth
and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9 {that is,} the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan,
with all power and signs and false wonders,
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish,
because they did not receive the love of the Truth so as to be saved.
11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence
so that they will believe what is false,
12 in order that they all may be judged
who did not believe the Truth,
but took pleasure in wickedness.
I watched a big debate in the 80's on a classic TBN program w/Hal Lindsey for pre=trib. another guy mid=trib and another post-trib just for the purpose of debate. Paul Crouch. the co-founder & host, said he rec'd so much mail asking him which one was right. So he said he went to the Lord in prayer and asked Him what to tell the viewers and Paul said only twice has he heard an audible voice from God and this was one. He said God simply told him to tell everybody to just "BE READY'. Thx.
HelloTabinRivCA,
Notice the correlation between 2 Thess 2:8 and Daniel 7:26, where after the beasts mouth has worn out the saints for 3.5 times (1,260 days), the judgement then sits and takes away the beasts dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end?
Same time (the end of the age under Satan), same place (the whole earth), same characters (the beast and its worshipers).
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Daniel 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Notice the correlation between 2 Thess 2:8 and Daniel 7:26, where after the beasts mouth has worn out the saints for 3.5 times (1,260 days), the judgement then sits and takes away the beasts dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end?
Same time (the end of the age under Satan), same place (the whole earth), same characters (the beast and its worshipers).
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Daniel 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Hello BibleloverBill,
I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to point out a difference between your bible version and the KJV of this scripture. In the KJV we see the Antichrist "shewing himself that he is God". God is love (1 John 4:8 & 16), and this individual (the Antichrist) will see himself as the love of the whole world, as the whole faithless world will worship him (Revelation 13:4). He will even sit/stand where he ought not in the temple of God, which in the hearts of the holy people, the saints, whom he will overcome for 1,260 days (Revelation 13:7 & Daniel 7:25).
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Revelaiton 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to point out a difference between your bible version and the KJV of this scripture. In the KJV we see the Antichrist "shewing himself that he is God". God is love (1 John 4:8 & 16), and this individual (the Antichrist) will see himself as the love of the whole world, as the whole faithless world will worship him (Revelation 13:4). He will even sit/stand where he ought not in the temple of God, which in the hearts of the holy people, the saints, whom he will overcome for 1,260 days (Revelation 13:7 & Daniel 7:25).
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Revelaiton 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
The Lord sending his angels and gathering His people from the four winds to His barn in the land of Judea and the Middle East is in reference to they who believe on what Christ believes. It is not in reference to the 1948 reestablishment of the land of Israel by Jews who are not called by His name (Christian).
Isaiah 65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
Isaiah 65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
***I posted NKJV. The KJV 11th edition still has a lot of mistakes in it and does not honor the Godhead with first letter capitalization of their titles and the pronouns referring to them. Many years ago I met the chief editor of the NKJV and he told me the rules they followed. All of the rules were very good.
And the verses you quoted show that the pre-Trib rapture theory based on one verse in Revelation 4 is wrong. Thank you.
I was banned by two pastors of a Baptist church because I would not condemn Evangelist Billy Graham and all translations except the KJV 11th edition. I told them that I would keep those 2 issues secret because I believed most all what was being preached and done in worship, but they still said that I could not be a member or attend. I was going to give double my weekly donations and dress in my suits. I am 71-years old and have done missionary work in Germany and Nigeria and have created over 300 Bible study tools covering all of the New Testament and 3/5 of the Old Testament and I have done a lot of intercessory praying especially in response to news reports. I was born again on May 25, 1967, and God through many different experiences taught me the Full Gospel (good news) and His wisdom (especially in how Jesus Christ thought when in human form). He had me exposed to many denominations and even some cults and Roman Catholic churches in order that I would I would be understanding of people from different spiritual backgrounds in my Internet ministering (15 years). I know that God hates the prevalent prejudices and discriminations being done in churches, even hatred and condemnation statements. What is our mission? It is summarized in the Two Great Commandments and Jude 20-23. On the New Earth, everyone is supposed to get along and be thankful for everyone else.
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Preterists believe the bride/groom/harvest were 1st century fulfillments and that the political establishment of a supposed "Israel" is not supported by the bible. Under the OT the only return to the land was in repentance - what we have founding that fake nation is a bunch of Zionist atheists.
And seeing as the old covenant ended in the 1st century the conditions for a return to the "land" are no longer valid.
If indeed these Zionists were brought back to the "land" then God is condoning atheism and rebellion.
Paul was presenting the 1st century Christians as a "bride" not some "Jews" of the 20th and 21st century:
2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.
These are Gentiles not some fake Jews in Isreel.
And seeing as the old covenant ended in the 1st century the conditions for a return to the "land" are no longer valid.
If indeed these Zionists were brought back to the "land" then God is condoning atheism and rebellion.
Paul was presenting the 1st century Christians as a "bride" not some "Jews" of the 20th and 21st century:
2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.
These are Gentiles not some fake Jews in Isreel.