OSAS= House Built on Sand

[mailmandan]

His sheep who hear and obey His voice, are those who follow Him, and no one can snatch them out of His hand.

John 10:27 - My sheep hear My voice (not some of them do and some of them don't), and I know them (not some of them I know and some of them I don't know), and they follow Me (not some of them follow me and some of them don't). 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish (not some of them I give eternal life and shall never perish and some I don't give them eternal life and they shall perish); neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand (not some of them will not be snatched out of my hand and some of them will be snatched out of My hand).

Sheep who hear His voice but don’t obey, end up becoming lost.

OXYMORON.

Lost sheep are no longer reconciled to Him.

Matthew 5:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

In Luke 19:10, we read - for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
*Not lost his salvation and has to get it back again.

 

[Grandpa]

You are correct...in the proper context; ....Once G-d declares we are saved from eternal damnation ...we are saved forever. But, that does not occur until we are physically dead and judged. While we are here on this earth we are...born again....and living a righteous life.
If you disagree with The Bible please take it up with G-d. I am only a messinger.

I agree with the bible.

I just disagree with you.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This is pretty non-sensical if we aren't saved until after we die. You don't have to tell a dead person that they aren't saved by works.

Wouldn't it make more sense to say 'by grace are you saved through faith; and that not until you die and are judged".

But it doesn't say that. I don't think you will find the bible saying that anywhere. Because it isn't faith.


Faith doesn't say all the blessings of God are available to you once you die and are judged. Faith says that all the blessings of God are available NOW.

Matthew 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

Save us when? Save us NOW. (That's what Hosanna means)

 

[Endoscopy]

You are correct...in the proper context; ....Once G-d declares we are saved from eternal damnation ...we are saved forever. But, that does not occur until we are physically dead and judged. While we are here on this earth we are...born again....and living a righteous life.
If you disagree with The Bible please take it up with G-d. I am only a messinger.

I stand on what Jesus said about OSAS. No one can snatch them out of his hand!!

John 10 NIV
24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Looks like mailmandan beat me to it!!

 

[justpassinthrough]

I agree with the bible.

I just disagree with you.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This is pretty non-sensical if we aren't saved until after we die. You don't have to tell a dead person that they aren't saved by works.

Wouldn't it make more sense to say 'by grace are you saved through faith; and that not until you die and are judged".

But it doesn't say that. I don't think you will find the bible saying that anywhere. Because it isn't faith.


Faith doesn't say all the blessings of God are available to you once you die and are judged. Faith says that all the blessings of God are available NOW.

Matthew 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

Save us when? Save us NOW. (That's what Hosanna means)

Now we are saved by faith.


Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


Do we have faith in Christ Jesus for salvation?


Yes.


Which means we have the hope of salvation.


But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 1 Thessalonians 5:8



Faith is the substance of the thing you are hoping for.


If we have faith for something, then by default we do not yet have that thing yet, but we have the hope of obtaining it.

When?


When He comes.


And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Hebrews 9:27-28


again



In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

When ?


When we hear these words -


Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34




JLB

 

[mailmandan]

Now we are saved by faith.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

Do we have faith in Christ Jesus for salvation?

Yes.

Which means we have the hope of salvation.

But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 1 Thessalonians 5:8

Faith is the substance of the thing you are hoping for.

If we have faith for something, then by default we do not yet have that thing yet, but we have the hope of obtaining it.

When?

When He comes.

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Hebrews 9:27-28

again

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

When ?

When we hear these words -

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

JLB

This hope is not some "cross your fingers" hope I make it (like I hope I win the lottery) kind of hope. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).

There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get mixed up by those who teach that salvation is obtained and/or maintained by works:

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS.

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

 

[Endoscopy]

This hope is not some "cross your fingers" hope I make it (like I hope I win the lottery) kind of hope. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).

There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get mixed up by those who teach that salvation is obtained and/or maintained by works:

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS.

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

The full phrase is we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Grace is a free gift for those accepting Jesus as savior. The unsaved seem to have a problem thinking they have to earn salvation. This is pointed out with the judgment time of those claiming they did many works for Jesus and he will say begone I never knew you. A true Christian would understand that they needed to claim grace through faith in Jesus. Our best works are described as filthy rags to God. It is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us in the sight of God.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

HELPS word-studies defines the word elpízō (hoped for) as:

Cognate: 1679 elpízō (from 1680 /elpís, "hope") – to hope, actively waiting for God's fulfillment about the faith He has inbirthed through the power of His love.​

The word "evidence" is the Greek word elenchos which HELPS word-studies defines as follows:

Cognate: 1650 élegxos (a masculine noun) – inner conviction focuses on God confirming His inbirthing of faith ("the internal persuasion from Him".​

Faith is the undergirding, the foundation for our hope. If our faith is weak, our hope will be affected, and we may go through our whole life wondering if we are truly saved instead of knowing with that inner conviction focused on God confirming His inbirthing and thereby actively wait for God's fulfillment of that which He has promised.



Romans 8:

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.


The hope we have within us is not an "optimistic state of mind" or a "feeling of expectation".

The hope we have within us concerning our salvation is a knowing conviction that God is going to do what He has promised. In response to our knowing conviction, we wait patiently for God to bring it to pass.



1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

We do not look at the promise and "hope" with an "optimistic state of mind" or a "feeling of expectation" that it will come to pass.

We look at the Promiser and know He will bring His promise to pass. Our salvation rests not in ourselves. Our salvation rests in Him Who promised.

Do we trust God to perform that which He begun within us (Phil 1:6)?

We need to be more like Abraham ... And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform - Rom 4:21. We need to be fully persuaded concerning God's promise of salvation.

 

[preston39]

So m

So many strawmen and it's not even Halloween!

Who here blames God for sin?

Who here has accused God of horrible things?

Who here says God winks at sin?

You are using the same tactics as those who do not believe in eternal security use in saying we promote sin because we believe in osas.

Don't accuse the brethren. That's another entitys job. And he does it well enough without your help.

P....,

What a spin. WOW!
Only a fool would charge G-d with such.

Please define and ...when.....at what stage?

 

[preston39]

I agree with the bible.

I just disagree with you.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This is pretty non-sensical if we aren't saved until after we die. You don't have to tell a dead person that they aren't saved by works.

Wouldn't it make more sense to say 'by grace are you saved through faith; and that not until you die and are judged".

But it doesn't say that. I don't think you will find the bible saying that anywhere. Because it isn't faith.


Faith doesn't say all the blessings of God are available to you once you die and are judged. Faith says that all the blessings of God are available NOW.

Matthew 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

Save us when? Save us NOW. (That's what Hosanna means)

Those references do not help you...any.

I understand that you disagree... but, you have not presented scripture which validates your conclusion...... I have.

If you are saved .......while alive here on earth.......notice....ed....done complete never to be changed, etc.
Then how can it be should G-d upon judgement decide we have not lived a life according to His commandments, change it? I bet He appreciates you nullifying His judgement authority.
Please explain.

 

[preston39]

timed out....

Further, please show me any writings, sermons, teachings, quotes, supported positions...prior to the era of the 1960's which even shows OSAS was maintained?:

 

[Endoscopy]

Those references do not help you...any.

I understand that you disagree... but, you have not presented scripture which validates your conclusion...... I have.

If you are saved .......while alive here on earth.......notice....ed....done complete never to be changed, etc.
Then how can it be should G-d upon judgement decide we have not lived a life according to His commandments, change it? I bet He appreciates you nullifying His judgement authority.
Please explain.

I stand with this quote of Jesus!

John 10 NIV. No one can snatch them out of my Father's hand

22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[preston39]

I stand with this quote of Jesus!

John 10 NIV. No one can snatch them out of my Father's hand

Listen carefully....that scripture is applicable after G-d has awarded you and I eternal salvation. You are putting the cart before the horse. Just because a person becomes ...born again...here on this earth does not mean that they will ..."maintain until the end"..... as required by scripture.

Your new age religion position on this issue has only been around since the 1960's. Please show me a trail of it's existence before....ok....?

22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The rest of your reference does not support your belief.

 

[Endoscopy]

The rest of your reference does not support your belief.

If we can't be snatched out of God's hand after accepting grace through faith in Jesus how can we lose our salvation? That is the point. Prove your thesis against the words of Jesus on the subject.

 

[preston39]

If we can't be snatched out of God's hand after accepting grace through faith in Jesus how can we lose our salvation? That is the point. Prove your thesis against the words of Jesus on the subject.

You are miss applying scriptures......thru taking them out of context.

I have ...where is your references to the new age religion position on this issue prior to the 19960's?...are you going to address that?...yes or no...?

 

[Endoscopy]

You are miss applying scriptures......thru taking them out of context.

I have ...where is your references to the new age religion position on this issue prior to the 19960's?...are you going to address that?...yes or no...?

I disagree with your assertion. It is obvious you are Arminian. This is one of the disagreements between Calvinists and Armenians. I am Calvinist. There were many disagreements about issues in the early church as today. The creeds were created for 3 reasons by the early elders between 212 and 500.

1. To define what a Christian must believe.
2. Define anything contrary to it as heresy.
3. Any issue outside of it as agree to disagree.

Arminian vs Calvinism is outside the creeds so I disagee with your Arminian views. That doesn't make either of us non Christians. We just disagree with an issue.

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/

 

[Endoscopy]

You are miss applying scriptures......thru taking them out of context.

I have ...where is your references to the new age religion position on this issue prior to the 19960's?...are you going to address that?...yes or no...?

NO
It is not applicable to the concept of OSAS which the quote of Jesus supports!! I only use the Bible not quotes from New Age or anything like it. I listen to ministers of the word but as recommended by a minister that it needs to be verified by the Bible. I am 73 and been a deacon and elder in 3 Reformed theology churches, moved twice. I took several classes in theology as required by becoming an officer in the church. Being in the Reformed theology faith I also have investigated its opposite viewpoint Arminianism. Both views are Biblical. I'm not a novice in theology so refute explicitly what I missed from that quote of Jesus.

 

[preston39]

I disagree with your assertion. It is obvious you are Arminian. This is one of the disagreements between Calvinists and Armenians. I am Calvinist. There were many disagreements about issues in the early church as today. The creeds were created for 3 reasons by the early elders between 212 and 500.

1. To define what a Christian must believe.
2. Define anything contrary to it as heresy.
3. Any issue outside of it as agree to disagree.

Arminian vs Calvinism is outside the creeds so I disagee with your Arminian views. That doesn't make either of us non Christians. We just disagree with an issue.

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/

Call me names as you wish...but, you still haven't addressed the question of.... prior to the 60's info........last request...are you going to respond to that question?










































T QUESTION?S

e

 

[preston39]

NO
It is not applicable to the concept of OSAS which the quote of Jesus supports!! I only use the Bible not quotes from New Age or anything like it. I listen to ministers of the word but as recommended by a minister that it needs to be verified by the Bible. I am 73 and been a deacon and elder in 3 Reformed theology churches, moved twice. I took several classes in theology as required by becoming an officer in the church. Being in the Reformed theology faith I also have investigated its opposite viewpoint Arminianism. Both views are Biblical. I'm not a novice in theology so refute explicitly what I missed from that quote of Jesus.

Novice?.....you be the judge...but, I know you are incorrect. The Bible says so.

I really don't care what you call it......the name is..... new age religion bovine residue........ which has garnered a position in Christianity since the 1960's....not prior....why?

 

[Endoscopy]

Novice?.....you be the judge...but, I know you are incorrect. The Bible says so.

I really don't care what you call it......the name is..... new age religion bovine residue........ which has garnered a position in Christianity since the 1960's....not prior....why?

Prove through Bible quotes or references of sections of scripture where I am wrong. I asked for that before but you never responded with them.

Historically creeds were written by elders between 212 and 500 to define what a Christian must believe. At that time there were many issues that elders disagreed about. The decision was anything outside of the creeds was to agree to disagree. That has led today for all of the gospel preaching denominations today. These disagreements are part and parcel of Christianity.

Along comes people like you going against this policy and call those who have Biblical reasons for their beliefs to be called names and associated with the New Age movement.

Calvin and Arminius lived back in the 1600s. So your assertion of New Age is absolutely wrong. It is obvious you have no concept of the history of Christianity. Here are two opposing belief systems today.

The quinquarticular controversy is the difference between the 5 points of Calvinism and Armenianism. Both are diametrically opposed to each other. Both have web sites with a long discussion about each point with lots of scripture references.

Calvinism
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism

1. Free will or Human ability
2. Unconditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. Resistible grace
5. Falling from Grace

 

[Endoscopy]

I used my smart phone to do the previous post. Now I'm on my tablet with more reference resources. Here is a more complete reference to the Quinquarticular Controversy. Go to the referenced links for the Biblical defence for each and after studying them tell me what is correct and is not correct. To me both make compelling arguments. Since these issues are outside of the creeds then according to the elders that created the creeds Christians are to agree to disagree.

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace7

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/