“About The Great Tribulation”

[Ahwatukee]

***I never said that the True Christian Church believers will have to face God's Wrath. Didn't you read about my statements about 2 kinds of tribulation not including God's Wrath? "Natural disasters are not done by God. Who is the prince of the air mentioned in Ephesians 2:2. He is currently the World-wide ruler. There have been many examples of harsh tribulation of groups of people throughout humankind history and there is tribulation happening now in many countries.

Yes, and my point was/is that the tribulation that you mention above is not God's wrath, but comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. As far as natural disasters (tornados, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc." I would not say that God is directly causing those events, but are just natural events.

And you misuse the John 14 verses about His preparing places for His disciples, the Bible says that the New Jerusalem (the current Heaven) will come down to the New World.

John 14:1-3 speaks for itself and is very clear in its meaning. Jesus is not speaking about the time of the new Jerusalem, but about His coming back to get us before He pours out His wrath out upon this earth. So, here it is again:

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. "

So, Jesus says that there are many rooms in His Father's house, which I am sure that you would agree that the Father's house would have to be referring to heaven, correct?

Then Jesus says that He is going there (to the Father's house in heaven) to prepare rooms for us.

Then He says that He is going to come back to take us to be where He is, which again would be the Father's house.

The detailed account of His promise in John 14:1-3 can be found in I Thess.4:13-17 which is when the Lord descends from heaven, with a shout and with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God and the dead will rise first. After that, we who are still alive will be changed and caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air.

This event where Jesus comes back to take us to the Father's house takes place prior to God's wrath and prior to the new heaven and new earth. In fact, there is at least a thousand years in between the time when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and the creation of the new heaven and new earth, which is when the new Jerusalem comes down. We are still quite a ways from that time of the new Jerusalem, which won't take place until after the great white throne judgment.

You misuse Scripture and are arrogant. Read what Jesus Christ said about the Pharisees in Matthew 23 after the Two Great Commandments teaching. You seem to have the same problems that they had.

Your response is a typical response from those who don't understand scripture and therefore attack the person who is sharing that information.

 

[Ahwatukee]

1-- ‘Wrath’, ‘Destroy’, & 'Destruction' NT Bible Study Tool-- ETRSF (10 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/u0rl16kkm3a2cvq4ytstjim9dbv8colm

6e Prophecy theories and fulfillments-- https://app.box.com/s/b4f214de6048af2f1b8a

Trial and tribulations = Comes at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness from the beginning until the church is gone because of faith in Christ and the word of God.

God's tribulation = Is a specific, unprecedented time which begins after the church has been removed and will be upon a Christ rejecting world and will continue until the Lord returns to end the age.

The wrath that I have been speaking about is a specific time of God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments during that seven year period. It is not until after the church is removed from the earth that this wrath will begin. Any believer who is currently suffering persecution or even death, is suffering because of their faith in Christ and the word of God.

If you don't agree with this, then we can agree to not agree and bring this to a close.

 

[BibleloverBill]

Yes, and my point was/is that the tribulation that you mention above is not God's wrath, but comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. As far as natural disasters (tornados, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc." I would not say that God is directly causing those events, but are just natural events.



John 14:1-3 speaks for itself and is very clear in its meaning. Jesus is not speaking about the time of the new Jerusalem, but about His coming back to get us before He pours out His wrath out upon this earth. So, here it is again:

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. "

So, Jesus says that there are many rooms in His Father's house, which I am sure that you would agree that the Father's house would have to be referring to heaven, correct?

Then Jesus says that He is going there (to the Father's house in heaven) to prepare rooms for us.

Then He says that He is going to come back to take us to be where He is, which again would be the Father's house.

The detailed account of His promise in John 14:1-3 can be found in I Thess.4:13-17 which is when the Lord descends from heaven, with a shout and with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God and the dead will rise first. After that, we who are still alive will be changed and caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air.

This event where Jesus comes back to take us to the Father's house takes place prior to God's wrath and prior to the new heaven and new earth. In fact, there is at least a thousand years in between the time when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and the creation of the new heaven and new earth, which is when the new Jerusalem comes down. We are still quite a ways from that time of the new Jerusalem, which won't take place until after the great white throne judgment.



Your response is a typical response from those who don't understand scripture and therefore attack the person who is sharing that information.

You are completely wrong. Satan loves false accusations against true adopted children of God. I know a lot more than you. I am 71-years-old and have been a Bible scholar since October 1974. I have relied on the Holy Spirit as my guide and teacher and counselor. I have no unconfessed sins in my life and again I am doing fulltime Great Commission actions. I live Jude 20-23 even in the forum.

You have been rebuked by others for your misuse of Scripture and arrogance. What is Christ-likeness? I will pray for you.

 

[BibleloverBill]

Trial and tribulations = Comes at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness from the beginning until the church is gone because of faith in Christ and the word of God.

God's tribulation = Is a specific, unprecedented time which begins after the church has been removed and will be upon a Christ rejecting world and will continue until the Lord returns to end the age.

The wrath that I have been speaking about is a specific time of God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments during that seven year period. It is not until after the church is removed from the earth that this wrath will begin. Any believer who is currently suffering persecution or even death, is suffering because of their faith in Christ and the word of God.

If you don't agree with this, then we can agree to not agree and bring this to a close.

I have not said anything against what you wrote in this message!! And you didn't look at the Bible study about wrath. You would have seen that there are times that the word is used before the ultimate Revelation happenings. And the latter don't indicate any of the happenings that media reports as "acts of nature" or "acts of God". Ephesians 2:2 says that Satan controls the weather at this time.

 

[BibleloverBill]

NT-22-- Revelation-- 4th Edition in ETRSF (17 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/sb9ydypp1hqdsdkfzsum4go8oru9464s

 

[luigi]

Unfortunately Louie you have failed to take the whole of the harvest motif into consideration:

Mat 3:12 His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

The fact that the winnowing fork was in his hand means the events tied with it were near not 1970 years later and counting

He's previously warned his hearers:

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

There is an "audience" related connection between the harvest and the "wrath to come".

John 4:35 “Do you not say, ‘There are yet four months, and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest.

John's gospel helps us flesh out the timing and who is being harvested - "fields; for they are white already to harvest".

Mat 9:37 Then He *said to His disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;

Mat 9:38 “Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest.”

I think we are well within reason to say the "labourers" were his apostles and disciples of the 1st century.

A slightly different view point of the tares and wheat:

Mat 22:3 “And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come.
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.
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Mat 22:7 “But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.

This is an obvious allusion to 1st century Jerusalem.

The wedding and the harvest are all part and parcel of the same motif.

Unfortunately Locutus,
I am trying to stay in context with Mark 13, which shows the Lord gathering His people from the all the earth (Mark 13:27-30) into His barn, which occurs following the tribulation in preceding verses.

 

[Dino246]

Unfortunately, yes, we would have to discuss it, but it would be more of a contention and rebuke to those who believe in that scenario.

I wouldn't call it a bludgeoning, thought some do, but being zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word. Actually, I don't know why people should listen to those whom the Spirit has revealed the deeper things of God to, for they did not believe Paul either and he was getting his information directly from the Lord and that with power. In fact, if Paul were here, I'm sure that they would be arguing with him as well.

My perspective is that in non-essential matters, we should be "quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry". I grow tired of interacting with people who "know it all" and who are quick not just to disagree, but also to denigrate those who hold to different views. I'd love to meet someone who never changed his mind on anything (or not; he'd probably be unbearable!).

The "bludgeoning" comment was not directed at you, by the way.

 

[luigi]

Hello Luigi,

The reference to the Lord sending out His angels to gather His elect from the four winds us referring to those great tribulation saints (regardless of nation, tribe, people and language) and they will be those, along with Israel, who will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom. But, before that happens, according to the parable in Matt.13 of the weeds and wheat, the angels "first" gather the weeds, which are those who will have rejected Christ till the end and will have worshiped the beast, his image and received his mark. These will be killed by the double-edged sword with their spirits going into Hades and the birds gorging themselves on their flesh - (See Matt.13:24-30 and Rev.19:17-18).



You always have to keep in mind that there is going to be those from that group of white robed saints during the tribulation period who make it through the time of God's wrath, alive. These are the wheat who will be gathered by the angels mentioned in Matt.24:31. Keep in mind also that Rev.19:6-8 reveals that the bride/church is already in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb receiving her fine linen. Then in verse 14 the bride as the armies in heaven are shown to be following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses.

Hello Ahwatukee,

Yes, the Lord will gather His people from all the earth, but they are not gathered to repopulate the earth; they are gathered into the Lords barn, which I see representing the Middle East after the beasts reign has concluded. There are many scriptures that attest to Judea and the Middle East being the largest mountain (largest nation) when the Lord commences to reign on the earth(Isaiah 2:2).
Everyone else will be gathered unto their own peoples where they will experience the Lords wrath for their love for the system of the beast. One has to connect all the dots in scriptures and not omit any simply because they seem to conflict with ones perspective.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

 

[BibleloverBill]

NT-19-- 1 & 2 Peter with questions-- in ETRSF (11 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/760ik7ic8rcqwzqt1sbxwefze01gylhm

NT-20-- The Epistles of John in ETRSF with questions (8 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/kbqbs4s0q3oxyanpjr58vhtubykcley8

NT-18-- James ETRSF (8 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/u6bnjsfjd1hp2g1l6gr4mcirk144wdmv

NT-14-- 1 & 2 Thessalonians in ETRSF (5 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/9z5888jm6vpsy7w2jxtbij7jh5havqb1

NT-21-- Jude in ETRSF (2 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/u9jfhck8zr0uisakw4tc1n5i6qvy85dg

NT-22-- Revelation-- 4th Edition in ETRSF (17 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/sb9ydypp1hqdsdkfzsum4go8oru9464s


6e Prophecy theories and fulfillments-- https://app.box.com/s/b4f214de6048af2f1b8a

Note: The "1--" and "2--" items are what I considered the best.

 

[Davenport]

What will take place later = Everything which takes place after the "what is now" i.e. after the church period

Rev 1:19 does not say "what will take place later", let alone "after the church period". Your posts are dishonest. But, one value of your posts is they prove that anti-preterist churches are not of God, but are of Satan, the father of lies.

Rev 1:19 says "What will take place hereafter." Anti-pretists love to lie, their father's language, about the meanings of words. But, "hereafter" doesn't mean later, as in after a delay, but from this moment on. The Greek word is used hundred of times in the Bible and never is used to mean anything starting later. It's usually translated "with".

Rev 1:19 "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;" That one verse refutes your lies three times over. "Things which are" means what has already happened. E.g. Revelation 17:10 which speaks of five kings which have already come. "Things which shall be" means things starting when the vision of Revelation was given. I already addressed "hereafter." But, there's another word that shows you to be a liar, the Greek word translated "shall", μέλλω. It means imminent, not much later.

 

[Locutus]

Unfortunately Locutus,

I am trying to stay in context with Mark 13, which shows the Lord gathering His people from the all the earth (Mark 13:27-30) into His barn, which occurs following the tribulation in preceding verses.

Yeah but - you are placing the tribulation and harvest well past when it occurred:

Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

Mat 13:40 “So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

What you need to figure out next is when was the end of the age?

Hebrews tells us that Christ appeared at the end of the age(s) (or as the end of the age was approaching):

Heb 9:26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

In Corinthians he also says:

1 Cor 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

So this places the harvest within the lifetimes of the apostles i.e. the 1st century AD.

This is simple and requires no "theological" acrobatics to figure out.

 

[Locutus]

Rev 1:19 (Young's Literal) Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things.

I'm about to log out of Christian Chat - some time in the next 1900 years or so. Ya know, whenever.

 

[luigi]

Yeah but - you are placing the tribulation and harvest well past when it occurred:

Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

Mat 13:40 “So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

What you need to figure out next is when was the end of the age?

Hebrews tells us that Christ appeared at the end of the age(s) (or as the end of the age was approaching):

Heb 9:26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

In Corinthians he also says:

1 Cor 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

So this places the harvest within the lifetimes of the apostles i.e. the 1st century AD.

This is simple and requires no "theological" acrobatics to figure out.

The end of the age is at the end of the events causing all the tribulation in Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24.
This tribulation did not happen in the past, otherwise we the faithful in Christ would already have been gathered from the four corners of the earth and carried to the Lords barn, while the wicked would all be gathered together in bundles among their own people awaiting the Lords wrath.

When Hebrews 9:26 describes the Lord appearing at the end of the world to put away sin; this has yet to transpire and conclude.
Sin is still very much a part of all mankind, including the faithful. Sin comes to its close among the faithful somewhere around the end of the beasts reign, when the Lord gathers His wheat from the four winds and has them transported to the Middle East.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.



If you look at the context of 1 Corinthians 10:11, the preceding 10 verses is in regards to the Exodus from Egypt upon whom the end of their lives came due to all their faithlessness and carnal inclinations. It is not about the end of the age prior to when the Lord commences to reign.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

 

[Locutus]

Unfortunately Louie you have lost the 1st century context and who the audience was - the Israelite/Jews - Jesus quotes Isaiah against THEM:

Mat 13:14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

(Mat 13:15 KJV) For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’

His 1st century audience are those that the harvest and "burning" of the tares are directed at - "In them" and "this people’s" - what you are trying to do is take these prophecies and apply it to the "world" rather than Israel/Jews.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I already addressed "hereafter." But, there's another word that shows you to be a liar, the Greek word translated "shall", μέλλω. It means imminent, not much later.

Incorrect.

The Greek word "G3195 - melló " carries with it the idea of "certain" ... so "will certainly take place" or "which are certain to take place" (that's prophecy, for you. )


And yes, they do come right after "this present age" ... "the things which are" [which is still presently going on (up till our Rapture, then the "future things/aspect" of the book kicks in, which Rev1:1 says "things which must come to pass [4:1] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…")]

 

[luigi]

Unfortunately Louie you have lost the 1st century context and who the audience was - the Israelite/Jews - Jesus quotes Isaiah against THEM:

Mat 13:14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

(Mat 13:15 KJV) For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’

His 1st century audience are those that the harvest and "burning" of the tares are directed at - "In them" and "this people’s" - what you are trying to do is take these prophecies and apply it to the "world" rather than Israel/Jews.

If anyone is taking data out of context it is you Locutus, by taking data from Matthew 13 and saying it correlates with the data of the great tribulation in Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Incorrect.

The Greek word "G3195 - melló " carries with it the idea of "certain" ... so "will certainly take place" or "which are certain to take place" (that's prophecy, for you. )


And yes, they do come right after "this present age" ... "the things which are" [which is still presently going on (up till our Rapture, then the "future things/aspect" of the book kicks in, which Rev1:1 says "things which must come to pass [4:1] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…")]

"certain" or "sure to"

[quoting]

"3195 (méllō) is used "in general of what is sure to happen" (J. Thayer). " [from Bible Hub; end quoting, underline mine]



Those are the things "prophesied" to take place!

 

[Davenport]

Incorrect.

The Greek word "G3195 - melló " carries with it the idea of "certain" ... so "will certainly take place" or "which are certain to take place" (that's prophecy, for you. )


And yes, they do come right after "this present age" ... "the things which are" [which is still presently going on (up till our Rapture, then the "future things/aspect" of the book kicks in, which Rev1:1 says "things which must come to pass [4:1] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…")]

What source tells you that mello means "certain"?

Strong's:
μέλλω méllō, mel'-lo; a strengthened form of G3199 (through the idea of expectation); to intend, i.e. be about to be, do, or suffer something (of persons or things, especially events; in the sense of purpose, duty, necessity, probability, possibility, or hesitation):—about, after that, be (almost), (that which is, things, + which was for) to come, intend, was to (be), mean, mind, be at the point, (be) ready, + return, shall (begin), (which, that) should (after, afterwards, hereafter) tarry, which was for, will, would, be yet.

Which verse in the Bible uses mellow to mean "certain" instead of imminent? Without leaning on your false anti-preterist doctrine to lie about the meaning of words, where does the Bible use "mellow" to mean "certain" but not "imminent"? Come bucko, it should be easy, if what you say is true. The NT uses the word over 100 times.

 

[Locutus]

Incorrect.

The Greek word "G3195 - melló " carries with it the idea of "certain" ... so "will certainly take place" or "which are certain to take place" (that's prophecy, for you. )


And yes, they do come right after "this present age" ... "the things which are" [which is still presently going on (up till our Rapture, then the "future things/aspect" of the book kicks in, which Rev1:1 says "things which must come to pass [4:1] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…")]

Not really, while mello does have a note of expectation it is a strenghened form and in a literal transalations is means "soon" not hundreds of years into the future.

Strongs

G3195 mello mel'-lo

a strengthened form of G3199 (through the idea of expectation);

to intend, i.e. be about to be, do, or suffer something (of persons or things, especially events; in the sense of purpose, duty, necessity, probability, possibility, or hesitation).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Strongs

G3199 melo mel'-o

a primary verb;

to be of interest to, i.e. to concern (only third person singular present indicative used impersonally, it matters).

What you will find is that literal translation show it as about to etc not generally shall be - some translations hide this from the reader because the translator bias is generally "futurist" in "theology"

Young's literal has it as "about to be" so does the Concordant literal version:

Rev 1:19 19 Write then, what you perceived, and what they are, and what is about to be occurring after these things:

 

[Locutus]

Here's another example of "mellei" "about to"

Rev 2:10 (Young's Literal) Be not afraid of the things that thou art about to suffer; lo, the devil is about to cast of you to prison, that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation ten days; become thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of the life.

So was Christ telling them they would have "certain" tribulation sometime in the next 1970 years and counting?