A BIBLICAL EXAMINATION OF CALVINISM

[pottersclay]

Our God is a holy righteous God who perfers mercy over judgement. He who created all things sits in the judgement seat for he is worthy.
Now if God had chosen only an elect people then how could he judge righteously to those who never had a chance???
Why would they suffer endless torment for not even having a hope.
If man is created in God's image all men and women how could God deny himself?

Imo there are 3 things that make up the elect.

1...loving God with all your might.

2. Loving your neighbor

3. Honoring the son and keeping his commandments.

There are many Christian's in the world. But not all are saved. As long as Jesus is in there beliefs they are referred as Christian. The title really means nothing.
What really matters is what God calls you.

 

[trofimus]

Have you read the parable of the sower? The word of God can penetrate the heart of a lost man, but can be taken away from him.

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

So devil is the one deciding? Why is he able to take away the word for some, but not for all?

No matter what you will post, you will always end up that it depends on God, in the end. There is no other way. To avoid this certain cocnlusion you must make God to be without some of His attributes, for example without all knowledge or without all power. Then, you will end up with a random universe, where events, inclinations and thoughts are generated without any logical chain, without a purpose and without a plan.

 

[trofimus]

Well I am still waiting for someone on CC to explain a biblical view of Calvinism since I will agree there are so many variations and interpretations that I am not sure which is the real Calvinism

There is nothing easier. Just read official calvinistic creeds.

The canons of Dordrecht.

The second helvetic confession.

The heidelberg catechism.

This is the real calvinism. At least in the scope of Switzerland and the rest of Europe. Every individual calvinist will differ in something, you can wait for eternity if you want to get it officially and wholy from individuals. Its like with every other system. If you want to know it really, go to the source, do not ask people on streets.

 

[maxwel]

I think I'm going to start a new thread called AN UNBIBLICAL EXAMINATION OF CALVINISM...

that oughta keep people on their toes.

...

 

[preacher4truth]

Our God is a holy righteous God who perfers mercy over judgement. He who created all things sits in the judgement seat for he is worthy.
Now if God had chosen only an elect people then how could he judge righteously to those who never had a chance???

God always judges righteously and is never unjust. You've merely set parameters on God you deem fair. When God rightly condemns any soul to hell, it is not an injustice.

Why would they suffer endless torment for not even having a hope.
If man is created in God's image all men and women how could God deny himself?

Imo there are 3 things that make up the elect.

1...loving God with all your might.

2. Loving your neighbor

3. Honoring the son and keeping his commandments.

There are many Christian's in the world. But not all are saved. As long as Jesus is in there beliefs they are referred as Christian. The title really means nothing.
What really matters is what God calls you.

Your view is nothing short of the Romans 9:20 man replying against God.

The illogical end to your surmise is Univerlsalism. In other words you're in grave error and should study the character and attributes of God, and if you have, really study it again. By the way, there is no such thing as an unsaved Christian.

 

[maxwel]

AN UNBIBLICAL EXAMINATION OF CALVINISM:



"I believe Calvinism is wrong because of ... cheese."

"What?"

"You heard me, I said cheese."

"But what does that mean? What does that even mean?"

"Hey, if you can't keep up with the debate, you lose by default."

"But, but, but..."

"Well, looks like I've chalked up another win. Go me!"


...

 

[preacher4truth]

I think I'm going to start a new thread called AN UNBIBLICAL EXAMINATION OF CALVINISM...

that oughta keep people on their toes.

...

baptistbiblebeliever beat you to it already with his OP, but he's unaware of it.

 

[Grandpa]

Well I was more looking for biblical support rather than a John Calvin support.

I am sure you could easily defend why salvation is by grace and not by works, I have seen you do that with ease and completely on point and irrefutably.

However, I cannot see scripture supporting election, as in God chooses, I was thinking you as an individual would be able to speak to why you believe this is true using scripture.

...... I can go back to Calvin but I just do not see him making a good case either for election as he defines it.

Election by God is really common sense for the bible believing, bible understanding Christian.

If Salvation is by Grace through Faith and not of works, and No one can come to the Lord unless they are drawn by the Father, Then it is God who chooses the Saved.

We have Gods Election all through the Bible. God chose Abel over Cain. God chose Jacob over Esau. God chose Israel over Canaan. God chose the Hebrews over the Egyptians. And on and on.

It is not until we get to the wishful thinking that men are in charge that most people try to throw election out and say that ALL men are elected and all they have to do is pray and they're in. Then God HAS to save them.

They're is a reason why one is chosen and one is not. We don't exactly see what it is. We just know its there.

I personally think its to show the goodness and Power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:26-29
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

 

[John146]

There is simply no where else to go with this if you don't believe God is omniscient. I'm seriously shocked to learn some Christians don't believe that.

God is Omniscient - Old Testament Evidence
“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

“Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?” (Isaiah 40:13-14).

“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4).

“O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways” (Psalm 139:1-3).

“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).

“Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since he judges even the highest?” (Job 21:22).

“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5).

“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever” (1 Chronicles 28:9).

“Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge?” (Job 37:16).

“From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth—he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do” (Psalm 33:13-15).

God is Omniscient – The New Testament Evidence
“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” (Romans 11:33).

“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).

“Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows” (Luke 12:7).

“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).

“Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered” (Matthew 10:29-30).

You have posted some wonderful verses concerning our God and how He is perfect, complete in knowledge. We should allow these verses to define the attributes of an omniscient God. However, you bring in the thought of a man made definition of omniscience.

God is perfect in knowledge as the Scripture states, then you define that to mean all future acts and decisions made by man. This is not in Scripture and we see over and over where that is not the case. God has chosen to limit His knowledge concerning man and his decisions based upon what man does with His word. Future decisions are not knowledge. All things that can be known are known unto God, not man. It is an impossibility to know the thoughts and motivations of another man, but an all knowing God can know those things. It is an impossibility to know the number of stars in the sky, or hairs on a person's head, but those are known to an all knowing God. If it's knowledge to be known, God knows it. God has allowed man to make decisions concerning His word and will act accordingly to our decisions. And no, we cannot surprise God or catch Him off guard. That's a silly argument.

God has certainly chosen to limit His knowledge of future decisions when dealing with man. However, there are future things God has declared that He knows will come to pass (the end from the beginning), and He will cause them to come to pass as in the book of Revelation.

God has declared, "Your sins and iniquities I will remember no more." God has chosen to limit His knowledge of sin. Why? Because He is a holy God and sin cannot have any part of Him nor in heaven.

One cannot get around all the Scriptures of God changing His mind on certain matters as in the story of Jonah. God did not lie when He stated, "Yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown." God simply changed His mind based upon Nineveh's response to His word.

*All verses stating that God will not repent, have to do with His long term plans for the nation of Israel.

 

[John146]

Election by God is really common sense for the bible believing, bible understanding Christian.

If Salvation is by Grace through Faith and not of works, and No one can come to the Lord unless they are drawn by the Father, Then it is God who chooses the Saved.

We have Gods Election all through the Bible. God chose Abel over Cain. God chose Jacob over Esau. God chose Israel over Canaan. God chose the Hebrews over the Egyptians. And on and on.

It is not until we get to the wishful thinking that men are in charge that most people try to throw election out and say that ALL men are elected and all they have to do is pray and they're in. Then God HAS to save them.

They're is a reason why one is chosen and one is not. We don't exactly see what it is. We just know its there.

I personally think its to show the goodness and Power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:26-29
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Paul says the election, Israel, are enemies of the gospel. See Romans 11. Israel is beloved of God because they were elected by God concerning the seed of Jesus Christ.

Election never, never, never has to do with the salvation of the soul but always points to service. There are elect angels, an elect nation (Israel), the elect based upon grace, and Jesus Christ who is God's elect. Did Jesus need saving?

 

[Nehemiah6]

If Salvation is by Grace through Faith and not of works, and No one can come to the Lord unless they are drawn by the Father, Then it is God who chooses the Saved.

Since God desires the salvation of all human beings, don't you think He would choose all, and that all would be saved?

Take Israel. God chose Israel and yet all of Israel was not saved. Indeed the majority of Jews rejected Christ. and until one can address that anomaly, one can only say that God DESIRES the salvation of all, therefore He cannot choose some for salvation. That would be contradictory.

 

[preacher4truth]

Since God desires the salvation of all human beings, don't you think He would choose all, and that all would be saved?

Take Israel. God chose Israel and yet all of Israel was not saved. Indeed the majority of Jews rejected Christ. and until one can address that anomaly, one can only say that God DESIRES the salvation of all, therefore He cannot choose some for salvation. That would be contradictory.

The anomalies that really need addressed are: 1) You've called all the Reformed lost; 2) You still don't know the meaning of the text you refer to in the first line; 3) You don't deem God fair for choosing whom He wills so you distort his ways and his word; 4) You've then created and fashioned God how you wish him to be; 5) Your anger towards God's sovereign electing grace (Romans 9:20).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And Romans 9:21 correlates with the following:

Jeremiah 18:1-13 -

18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
13 Therefore thus saith the Lord; Ask ye now among the heathen [the Gentiles], who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing.


Then Romans 9:26/Hos1:10 [re: ISRAEL] "And it shall come to pass, that in the place where IT WAS SAID UNTO THEM, YE are not My people, there shall they be called the children of the loving God."

...and Romans 9:25/Hos2:23b [re: the GENTILES] "...I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved."


...and then Romans 11:25-29 - "As concerning the gospel, they [Israel] are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they [Israel] are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentence/irrevocable."


...much more could be said on this...


[the context of Romans 9-11 being primarily "nations": "Israel [singular nation]" and "the Gentiles [plural nations]"... and "God's governmental ways upon the earth" through them; see also 11:32]

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Since God desires the salvation of all human beings, don't you think He would choose all, and that all would be saved?

Take Israel. God chose Israel and yet all of Israel was not saved. Indeed the majority of Jews rejected Christ. and until one can address that anomaly, one can only say that God DESIRES the salvation of all, therefore He cannot choose some for salvation. That would be contradictory.

If this so-called "doctrine of grace" is found in the Bible then this implies that if you disagree with Calvinism then you are denying salvation by grace and are lost,

There certainly is a doctrine of grace in the Bible, but this is a redefined term used by Calvinists that do not wish to be associated with the name Calvin.

Biblical grace still means undeserved favor to whomsoever will may come to the Cross.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

There is nothing easier. Just read official calvinistic creeds.

The canons of Dordrecht.

The second helvetic confession.

The heidelberg catechism.

This is the real calvinism. At least in the scope of Switzerland and the rest of Europe. Every individual calvinist will differ in something, you can wait for eternity if you want to get it officially and wholy from individuals. Its like with every other system. If you want to know it really, go to the source, do not ask people on streets.

Right. Read the creeds. There are nothing like creeds when you don't like the Bible puts something . .. the creeds do so much of a better job.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

… and a few other passages about Israel's FUTURE:

--Hosea 5:15-6:3

--Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23

--Romans 11:15 "what shall the receiving of them [Israel] be BUT LIFE FROM THE DEAD" (just as in these other passages about THEM)

--Daniel 12:1-4,10

--Isaiah 26:16-21 (note the "MY people"--just as in Ezekiel 39:7)

--John 6:39 [as distinct from 6:40]

...and a number of others like these...


[not to mention Lk22:30,16,18 and Matt19:28, etc]

 

[preacher4truth]

And Romans 9:21 correlates with the following:

Jeremiah 18:1-13 -

18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
13 Therefore thus saith the Lord; Ask ye now among the heathen [the Gentiles], who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing.


Then Romans 9:26/Hos1:10 [re: ISRAEL] "And it shall come to pass, that in the place where IT WAS SAID UNTO THEM, YE are not My people, there shall they be called the children of the loving God."

...and Romans 9:25/Hos2:23b [re: the GENTILES] "...I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved."


...and then Romans 11:25-29 - "As concerning the gospel, they [Israel] are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they [Israel] are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentence/irrevocable."


...much more could be said on this...


[the context of Romans 9-11 being primarily "nations": "Israel [singular nation]" and "the Gentiles [plural nations]"... and "God's governmental ways upon the earth" through them; see also 11:32]

Oh, so God hated an entire nation, not just one individual, and Sovereignly denied showing many individuals mercy.

That makes it all better.

This is all such a lame excuse to attempt to bolster free will decisional regeneration and attempt to do away with the glaring truth of electing grace, something first told to Moses when he wanted to see God's glory and know him and his ways. In fact God told him the very thing we see related to us in Romans 9. Note Exodus 33:18-23.

What is worse is the denial of the context of Romans 9, and it is speaking of individual salvation and rejection because of the preceding golden chain of redemption. God elects whom he willed to elect, and no other, and the fact is he doesn't choose all, and has never decided to give each and every man and woman a "chance to decide."

Praise God for his ways!

But I digress, Romans 9:20 is in full swing today and many attempt to d away with God's ways and deem him unfair.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Paul says the election, Israel, are enemies of the gospel. See Romans 11. Israel is beloved of God because they were elected by God concerning the seed of Jesus Christ.

Election never, never, never has to do with the salvation of the soul but always points to service. There are elect angels, an elect nation (Israel), the elect based upon grace, and Jesus Christ who is God's elect. Did Jesus need saving?

Have you ever heard a Calvinist say, “No man can come to me except the father draw him.” That’s a good one.

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me” (John 12:32).

Anybody can come. Christ’s crucifixion draws them. When Christ said in John 6, “No man can come to me except the father draw him,” He was talking on earth—talking to the disciples. Now here He says, “When I am lifted up, I’ll draw all of them.”

That isn’t all. Do you know what the bride said back there in the Song of Solomon? She says, “Draw me, we will run after thee” (Song of Solomon 1:4).

What can be more silly than a Calvinist sitting around saying, “I just don’t feel drawn, I just ain’t drawn. I got to be drawn, If the Holy Spirit don’t draw me . . .”

Hey, son, get down on your face before God and ask Him to draw you! You see where the will comes in? The fellow won’t do it!

Get on you knees right there and say, “Now Lord, You said I couldn’t come unless you draw me. In the name of Jesus Christ, draw me!”

He won’t pray that though. You know why? . . . SIN . . .

 

[Hevosmies]

So devil is the one deciding? Why is he able to take away the word for some, but not for all?

The devil is able to take away the word for some but not for all because of this:
They regard it not. THey dont understand it. ITS NOT MIXED WITH FAITH as it says.

Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

But I digress, Romans 9:20 is in full swing today and many attempt to d away with God's ways and deem him unfair.

Those I Corinthians 2:14 are out in force, I see. They believe that simple childlike faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ for sinners is foolishness, professing themselves to be wise, however . . .