A BIBLICAL EXAMINATION OF CALVINISM

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John146 said:
How about David's prayer? David fasted and prayed for seven days that God would show him grace and spare his son. David knew God's heart could be changed through prayer.

22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

Do you believe our God is reachable and touchable through our prayers? Do you believe prayer can cause God to move in a situation that left to itself would have never happened, but because we prayed God made a way?
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David was predestined to sin with Bathsheba and to murder her husband. God predestinated that an innocent baby would die because of something its father had no choice but to do. And on top of that the baby is still burning in hell.

I am so glad that someone told me about the love of God for filthy sinners instead of telling of this tyrannical capricious god that toys with men. Honestly the god of Calvin sounds a whole lot like the god of Mohammad.
 
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BaptistBibleBeliever said:
I am so glad that someone told me about the love of God for filthy sinners instead of telling of this tyrannical capricious god that toys with men. Honestly the god of Calvin sounds a whole lot like the god of Mohammad.
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"But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish."
2 Pet 2:12

I hope you will not perish, though. But you should stop talking about something you do not understand, judging historical people's faith, when you do not know them and when you read just few sentences from their huge works and you should also stop mocking "their god", because they were Christians, who suffered for their faith more than you do.
 
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trofimus said:
"But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish."
2 Pet 2:12

I hope you will not perish, though. But you should stop talking about something you do not understand, judging historical people's faith, when you do not know them and when you read just few sentences from their huge works and you should also stop mocking "their god", because they were Christians.
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Okay, was David predestinated to do these things or not?
 
trofimus said:
Biblically predestined.

However, I am sure your idea of predestination will be quite wrong.

Also, the right term is "predetermined". Predestination is more about salvation.
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WHAT IS biblically predestined?

IF someone is predestined to SIN, how can they be held accountable for that, since an ALMIGHTY GOD is doing it.
Let alone the fact that God is contradicting His own will! God wills that men DO NOT SIN, yet He foreordained it would occur in masses? God wants all to repent and be saved, yet doesnt give everyone repentance and faith?

Thats why the calvinists had to come up with the "two wills of God" theory.
Its all very complicated and confusing, where is ANY OF THIS in the bible?
 
Hevosmies said:
WHAT IS biblically predestined?

IF someone is predestined to SIN, how can they be held accountable for that, since an ALMIGHTY GOD is doing it.
Let alone the fact that God is contradicting His own will! God wills that men DO NOT SIN, yet He foreordained it would occur in masses? God wants all to repent and be saved, yet doesnt give everyone repentance and faith?

Thats why the calvinists had to come up with the "two wills of God" theory.
Its all very complicated and confusing, where is ANY OF THIS in the bible?
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Do you want my (post-calvinist, leibnizian) answer, or more typical calvinistic answer?

BTW, "two wills of God" is not calvinistic concept, Augustin mentioned it already.
 
trofimus said:
Do you want my (post-calvinist, leibnizian) answer, or more typical calvinistic answer?
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Oh you are not a calvinist anymore? I like you even better now.

I want the leibnizian answer. But I admit I have NO IDEA what that is :D
 
Hevosmies said:
WHAT IS biblically predestined?

IF someone is predestined to SIN, how can they be held accountable for that, since an ALMIGHTY GOD is doing it.
Let alone the fact that God is contradicting His own will! God wills that men DO NOT SIN, yet He foreordained it would occur in masses? God wants all to repent and be saved, yet doesnt give everyone repentance and faith?

Thats why the calvinists had to come up with the "two wills of God" theory.
Its all very complicated and confusing, where is ANY OF THIS in the bible?
Click to expand...

I feel like I'm in a Monty Python sketch doing mortal battle with the black knight. It's only a flesh wound as he is being whittled down to nothing left but his torso.
 
Leib·niz·i·an
[lībˈnitsēən, līpˈnitsēən]

ADJECTIVE
  1. relating to or characteristic of the German rationalist philosopher, mathematician, and logician Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz or his ideas.
    "a restatement of the Leibnizian system"
NOUN
  1. a person who supports the theories of the German rationalist philosopher, mathematician, and logician Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz.
    "the attempt of the Leibnizians to found knowledge in pure reason alone"
Ah, good old German rationalism.................the documentary hypothesis, no doubt.
 
BaptistBibleBeliever said:
Leib·niz·i·an
[lībˈnitsēən, līpˈnitsēən]

ADJECTIVE
  1. relating to or characteristic of the German rationalist philosopher, mathematician, and logician Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz or his ideas.
    "a restatement of the Leibnizian system"
NOUN
  1. a person who supports the theories of the German rationalist philosopher, mathematician, and logician Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz.
    "the attempt of the Leibnizians to found knowledge in pure reason alone"
Ah, good old German rationalism.................the documentary hypothesis, no doubt.
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Is there something you do not hate in Christianity before you even try to know it? I know, I know, your small baptist's world. I think your sectarian background between mormons still influences you in your behaviour.
 
Hevosmies said:
Oh you are not a calvinist anymore? I like you even better now.

I want the leibnizian answer. But I admit I have NO IDEA what that is :D
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I grew up in charismatic churches

When I was 15 or so, we moved to a local non-charismatic church similar to German Die Brüderbewegung.
I was baptized there and I think my faith got to be "adult, personal", there. They were arminians, dispensationalists.

When I was 22 or so, I changed my views to be calvinist and amil, because of my personal study of various theologies. I was a calvinist till my 32 or so. And I still partly am, I think its a good system.

I learned in my university about book by Leibniz - Theodicy and his attempt to reconcile the power of God and evil in this world. So I bought it and read it and Leibniz and his simple, logical systems got me. He was a lutheran, but he tried to make calvinism and augsburg confession to be more friendly to each other.

When I was 31 or so, I accepted his main views, till now.

OK, I will try to answer, later, but I think we already did this in another thread (light/darkness, sport car vs family car etc).
 
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trofimus said:
Biblically predestined.

However, I am sure your idea of predestination will be quite wrong.

Also, the right term is "predetermined". Predestination is more about salvation.
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Did God ordain the adulterous relationship and then kill the child for something He ordained?
 
trofimus said:
When I was 22 or so, I changed my views to be calvinist and amil, because of my personal study of various theologies. I was a calvinist till my 32 or so. And I still partly am, I think its a good system.
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Don't you mean that God in His most infinite wisdom in a demonstration of His almighty sovereign will determined to change my views so that I could no longer be what I was to be what I now is?
 
Hevosmies said:
WHAT IS biblically predestined?

IF someone is predestined to SIN, how can they be held accountable for that, since an ALMIGHTY GOD is doing it.
Let alone the fact that God is contradicting His own will! God wills that men DO NOT SIN, yet He foreordained it would occur in masses? God wants all to repent and be saved, yet doesnt give everyone repentance and faith?
Click to expand...
I will use the term "predetermination", because its the right term, here.

Predetermination to commit a sin is not a robotic programming and poor, innocent man must go and sin. Its the predetermination of time, cicumstances and other variables that together with the man's inner inclination produces the result needed for the best world, which also can mean that a man will sin.

So, God is not doing the sin, the man is. God is just using his tools to make it happen in the way and in the time that is the right for the best interests of all creation.

Predetermination is not a mathematical necessity, i.e. the circle cannot be a square. Its more subtle, about probability and certainity. A sinner is able not to sin, but its certain he will sin, because of his inner inclinations.

Hevosmies said:
Thats why the calvinists had to come up with the "two wills of God" theory.
Its all very complicated and confusing, where is ANY OF THIS in the bible?
Click to expand...

Why do you think its very complicated and confusing? Its very natural and you experience it daily.

By the first, preceding will, i.e. by the will without context, you wish to buy a sport car - ferrari. But in the context of your family needs you will buy a more family friendly car, slower, but bigger and generally better for a common good.

God, in His goodnes and character, wants all to be saved. But for the goal of the best possible world He needed to left some unsaved. To ask "where it is in the Bible" is not a very good question, because its an explanation of the Bible verse and we know where the verse is in the Bible.

Also, the concept is not of calvinists, its an ancient thing.
 
John146 said:
How about David's prayer? David fasted and prayed for seven days that God would show him grace and spare his son. David knew God's heart could be changed through prayer.

22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

Do you believe our God is reachable and touchable through our prayers? Do you believe prayer can cause God to move in a situation that left to itself would have never happened, but because we prayed God made a way?
Click to expand...
Of course God wants an intimate relationship with us. That is another very important aspect of prayer. However, our prayer doesn't change His Mind. Did it change His Mind in David's case?

Now I know the classic example of God changing His Mind over fasting, prayer and repentance is Jonah, but I think we need to look closely at the text.
Jonah 4:4 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. 2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, “Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.

Jonah KNEW God was gonna spare Nineveh. That's exactly WHY he didn't want to deliver the message to them. The Assyrians were brutal and had destroyed the Northern Kingdom. Torturing and enslaving many Jews. THAT'S why Jonah didn't want to go.

God explained to him pretty well what He thought of Jonah's lack of desire to fulfill His Plan in the belly of a whale!
 
>>>God is just using his tools to make it happen in the way and in the time that is the right for the best interests of all creation. <<<

Gee, yeah, trying to figure out how Davids adulterous sin and later murder and the death of a child is right for the best interests of all creation." Yeah, . . . no . . . sorry, doesn't compute. And my 'wow, this really makes sense' needle is all the way over to the left.

Pretermined, predestinated, prewhatever . . . same things.
 
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BaptistBibleBeliever said:
It is a gift of God, NOT OF WORKS! Salvation is a free gift to whomsoever will come.

It doesn't say that the FAITH is from God it says it is a gift from God. (not of yourself, it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS!)

Will you quit!
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Amen .....been saying that on here for a while and unbiased translators agree.
 
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