Gay stuff, not saying which way to judge, but hear the person before you judge

[Dan_473]

Nicodemus was speaking about Jesus because of the judgement of the religious sects

do we reason with the world's judgement or do we have the mind of Christ?

if we have the mind of Christ, we do not judge by standards the world offers, else we would find it in ourselves to never judge anyone according to the political mindsets of those who say it is ok to marry same sex couples and it is ok to abort the unborn if you don't want a child

that scripture does not say we should listen to everyone and then decide. we need to listen to God and then decide

people are liars in many cases and a person can be persuaded to go in any direction if they listen to the godless long enough

Lots of good points! Of course we judged by God standards. But as to the thing being considered for judgment, it seems wise to go buy a person's actual words as opposed to hearsay, for example.

 

[Dan_473]

I must admit I didn't watch the video (too long and, really, didn't want to).

The thing with hearing out someone is that they'll always say something to justify their actions, there'll always be an excuse or an argument as to why they do what they do, sometimes without WANTING to understand why is wrong.
However, for God there is no excuse. I DO consider that God is talking to his people even today, however, sin is sin no matter what. A mam who kills another man on purpose can be excused for his actions? No, for God is still a murderer. You said not to judge, that "somewhere" in the bible it says to first hear out the person. But let's put it in a spiritual context. God knows the past, the present and the future of every single creature in this world, He is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. He knows our story even better than ourselves, but do you think that story is a justification for our sin? That He will forgive an unrepentant murderer just because he was abused as a child? I know, for some this doesn't sound good, but that's how it is. God is a loving Father, but the fairest or judges.

God is the same today as He was in the past, and so His law is still the same, and what He called sin in the past is STILL sin nowadays. No one, no government, preacher or anyone can change that. So, no matter what the law of man says today, homosexuality is a sin.

certainly a tight reading of the scriptures as fine as long as one is willing to do it with every single Passage, and every single issue oh, even those we might find on comfortable today.

 

[Dan_473]

"I think somewhere in the Gospels it talks about it's not good to judge a person before you hear what he has to say. "
Deuteronomy 1:17

In 2011 the later to fall into bankruptcy due to poor money management "Crystal Cathedral" and its woman preacher/daughter of the deceased founder, made news when she insisted the church choir sign an "anti-gay covenant".

First to get something out of the way. The phrase, love the sinner hate the sin, is not found anywhere in scripture.
It can be inferred as a message in scripture but it is simply not written in scripture. God's word in the OT tells us he hates sin and sinners (Psalms 5:5 , Leviticus 20:23) and in the NT we're informed God does not even hear their prayers, John 9:31.

To continue.
God bless a gay welcoming church.
I've talked with those who claim Christ about this issue. Were it in their purview they'd stand at the door and physically bar those they thought were homosexual from entering.
Those are what I like to call, idiots.

We're told God does not live in houses built by our hands. Acts 7:48 and 17:24. And yet, people travel on various days of the week to meet in His name in a church. When we're told the body of Christ, the true church, is in the numbered faithful who are in Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:27.
And that number then are those who have repented and been born again according to the promise and the covenant will of God.

So how can we then say we would never accept gays into the structure, the house of God as some call the physical building location that is their church, when they are there because they were called by God? Who are we to bar their entry so as to hear the words of God preached? That they may hearken to the call to repentance of their many sins, as were we once one with them in that regard, and that would in the homosexual's case, include homosexuality. And then enter into the body of Christ and the spiritual church.

We cannot and expect to take our seat in any church and actually be worthy of taking up that space. It is as simple as that.

I wasn't aware of that scripture, Deuteronomy 1:17. Very interesting!

 

[Dan_473]

maybe people should watch the video. it's pretty revealing

at 10:06 the female pastor speaks of honoring the pride theme for that year and prior she mentions they are in the pride parade and wears a mickey mouse hat with rainbow ears

that is not what witnessing is about.

at 17 minutes the entire church is mouthing (to God supposedly) 'free us from the closets of secrecy and give us the guts and grace to come out' grace is not about admitting you are homosexual. the grace of God is there for the forgiveness of sins

it continues 'with the yellow stripe in the rainbow, build our confidence'

it just goes from bad to worse and there is nothing of redeeming value in it, but just the usual worldly agenda

it should be noted that the United Church, of which the church in the video is one, allows homosexuals to participate but do not ordain them however they do 'affirm' them

watch the video to see what this affirming is about

how does a church affirm homosexuals without undermining what the Bible says?

attending and affirming are not two sides of the same coin. they contradict each other

I'm glad you watched the video, of course form whatever judgment or opinion seems right to you in light of God's word.

 

[Dan_473]

Quite unbiblical this thing about not judging them before you hear them (as if there is something they can say to justify themselves.) No amount of talk, words, explaining or defending can remove ANY person out from under God's wrath and condemnation that abides on them outside of Christ. No one gets "their say" as if there is some sort of excuse for their position. This includes all sinners, sodomite, or otherwise.

We must remember this is the state of all the lost.

All the world (outside of Christ) is lost, Romans 3:19&c, under God's wrath, Ephesians 2:3, and condemned, John 3:16ff.

Yes, we are all sinners.
Suppose I said Billy Sunday was a right on preacher. But when pressed, it turned out that I had never heard him or read anything he said. That doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

 

[Dan_473]

Quite unbiblical this thing about not judging them before you hear them (as if there is something they can say to justify themselves.) No amount of talk, words, explaining or defending can remove ANY person out from under God's wrath and condemnation that abides on them outside of Christ. No one gets "their say" as if there is some sort of excuse for their position. This includes all sinners, sodomite, or otherwise.

We must remember this is the state of all the lost.

All the world (outside of Christ) is lost, Romans 3:19&c, under God's wrath, Ephesians 2:3, and condemned, John 3:16ff.

And thanks for stopping by the thread!

 

[preacher4truth]

Yes, we are all sinners.
Suppose I said Billy Sunday was a right on preacher. But when pressed, it turned out that I had never heard him or read anything he said. That doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Then that would be your problem and you shouldn't do that. As far as what you are trying to get to (perhaps that I didn't listen) you're correct. But bear in mind I've listened to a number of these debates and presentations of Scripture that refute the OP and its premise to being valid. Then there is also Hebrews 5:14 &c.

 

[Dan_473]

...

Hi songbird50, welcome to CC and thanks for stopping by the thread!

I'm interested in hearing what you have to say, but all I see is the quote of the opening post. Did you want some help with posting?

 

[Dan_473]

Look, we know we are to love people. That's not even up for debate. We know that Truth without Love is brutality, but we ALSO know Love without Truth is hypocrisy. I watched almost all the video, and I can attest that it is worse than a blatantly satanic church!

It's important to see just exactly what a TRUE apostate church looks like. I actually felt sick listening to the deception these people are peddling. Even the songs were disturbing. Many truly itching ears.

Thanks for stopping by the thread and hearing. As I said, I'm not saying which way to judge or which opinion to form.

 

[Dan_473]

If a person is a practicing and professing homosexual he is already heard.
How ever that is in reference to a person accused of breaking the law is to be brought before a judge and court of law to give a defense or answer his accuser. To determine whether what you were doing is what you are accused of.
If a person is an open professing,
practicing homosexual they are what they are. You might have to hear a person if they are accused of being a closeted or secret homosexual. They may also be redeemed and still struggling in that case, hear them with compassion. Because we all struggle with temptation...well I do anyway; not with this sin but my own sin which is also sin. I don't know of a sin that is anymore or less destructive than any other sin. I do know we are called to renounce sin and repent of it, and this I do yet I find that I often fail to overcome temptation. I wish that I did not fail but yet still do. Especially when the temptation is readily available, and I am weakened by exhaustion, hunger, loneliness, not being prepared by praying and studying and maintaining a Christian fellowship.

It seems like a wise approach to me, to listen to someone personally before forming an opinion about them.
Thanks for stopping by the thread!

 

[Dan_473]

what a joke and to be honest it is sicking. They have perverted the rainbow and taken it out of context from the word of God as GOD said what the rainbow stands for. This is a PC form of godliness but deny the power thereof. does anyone here those in church say

welcome :
Drunks, hookers, addicted, thieves etc.... NO, because the church is a place for people with sin, not a place to identify with sin. The church is a place to be set free from sin, not a place to celebrate a sin.

Thanks for stopping by the thread! As I said, I'm not saying which way people should judge or which opinion they should form.

 

[Dan_473]

I am not sure if this is the verse you may have been thinking of or not but it is a little different from what you are talking about...

Nicodemus, who had gone to Jesus earlier, and who himself was one of them, asked,51“Does our law convict a man without first hearing from him to determine what he has done?”

John 7:50-51

These verses speak on hearing someone out first but it is in the context of a court of law or legal matters.

Now Jesus has said " Judge not lest you be judged" and " do unto others as you would have them do unto you". If we would want others to hear us out and listen to our side of the story instead of making assumptions then we ought to do the same for them. When you do to others as you would want them to do to you, you are following what is known as the golden rule.

I have listened to some of this video and I think it is good to welcome all but it appears that they are encouraging and supporting gay marriage and the like so I do not agree with it. Seek to be discerning in who you listen to for a pastor. By getting in the bible yourself and being with other Christians and talking with them it can help. Unless you know what the bible says, you will not be able to see what teaching is in line with Scripture and what is not.

Yes I agree that strictly speaking, Nicodemus is talking about a different kind of situation. But I think it was a piece of wisdom that could apply to other situations as well. Thanks for stopping by and hearing!

 

[preacher4truth]

Thanks for stopping by the thread! As I said, I'm not saying which way people should judge or which opinion they should form.

If you're going to be Biblical about it, you wouldn't have to use a cop out. That's one problem of today: careful men, not biblically bold and sound men.

 

[Dan_473]

Then that would be your problem and you shouldn't do that. As far as what you are trying to get to (perhaps that I didn't listen) you're correct. But bear in mind I've listened to a number of these debates and presentations of Scripture that refute the OP and its premise to being valid. Then there is also Hebrews 5:14 &c.

Yes, I think I agree with what you're saying. It is good to investigate a matter carefully and not rely on things like secondhand reports Etc.

 

[Dan_473]

If you're going to be Biblical about it, you wouldn't have to use a cop out. That's one problem of today: careful men, not biblically bold and sound men.

It's not a cop out at all.
If one is going to be biblical, and I think by that you probably mean strictly biblical, with very literal interpretations, no regard for cultural situations, then that's fine.

But it does seem to me that a lot of even very conservative people will relax rules about biblical instructions regarding for example abused wives or children being submissive or slaves being submissive.

 

[preacher4truth]

It's not a cop out at all.
If one is going to be biblical, and I think by that you probably mean strictly biblical, with very literal interpretations, no regard for cultural situations, then that's fine.

But it does seem to me that a lot of even very conservative people will relax rules about biblical instructions regarding for example abused wives or children being submissive or slaves being submissive.

Cultural marxism hasn't and will not effect the Gospel I preach.

The Gospel deals with culture, as when a person is converted they are transferred out of the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light and are made one body in him. Colossians 1:13.

To assert that I have no regard for "cultural situations" betrays your much bandied about argument that we need to look well into a situation before passing judgment. Frankly, it is hypocritical of you.

 

[CS1]

I'm glad you watched the video, of course form whatever judgment or opinion seems right to you in light of God's word.

No that is not correct it is not what is right to me or the person it is the false narritive and perverion of what God created. There is not opinon , only truth. and this false church is lying before the word of the living God.

 

[Dan_473]

Cultural marxism hasn't and will not effect the Gospel I preach.

The Gospel deals with culture, as when a person is converted they are transferred out of the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light and are made one body in him. Colossians 1:13.

To assert that I have no regard for "cultural situations" betrays your much bandied about argument that we need to look well into a situation before passing judgment. Frankly, it is hypocritical of you.

I didn't assert that you had no regard for cultural situations, I said if one takes that position.

I haven't met any Christians today, even very conservative ones, that would return a slave to an abusive master, or require and abused child to be obedient to their parents.

 

[preacher4truth]

I didn't assert that you had no regard for cultural situations, I said if one takes that position.

Actually you didn't say the above, you asserted the scenario on me.

 

[Dan_473]

No that is not correct it is not what is right to me or the person it is the false narritive and perverion of what God created. There is not opinon , only truth. and this false church is lying before the word of the living God.

I don't think we're quite communicating here, I'll rephrase

Thanks for stopping by the thread and hearing at least some of the video. Whatever position you state after that won't be disputed by me at this time.