It's Not My Salvation I'm Fretting Over

[p_rehbein]

(I wrote/posted this several years ago, but, many of the recent discussions brought it back to my mind, and I thought it would be good to post it again. Mayhaps someone will benefit?)

"IT'S NOT MY SALVATION I'M FRETTING OVER"

When I was a young Christian, (just beginning my walk with Christ) I happened to take part in a discussion of Scripture with other believers. There were four of us there. There was an older man who never said what church/denomination he belonged to, and two men (middle aged) who stated they were Southern Baptist, and myself, and I attended a Church of God, Reformation Movement, Anderson, In..........

The two men began to question the older man, and asked him if he believed in once saved, always saved. He stated he did not, for he believed in free will. From that point, as often happens, the two men began to speak to him about the assurance of salvation, and quoted Scriptures from their Bibles, and wanted to know if he didn't want to have assurance of his salvation instead of always being concerned with loosing it? They talked for some time, and through it all, the older man smiled, and would sometimes chuckle quietly. The more they talked and quoted Scripture, the more the older man would smile, and I could see it was beginning to annoy the two men quite a lot. Finally, one of them almost shouted at the older man......What's wrong with you? Do you think this is funny? Don't you know this is serious?

The older man smiled and said, Why yes, I know it is quite serious, it's just that you misunderstood me. You see, it's not my salvation I'm fretting over, it's yours.................

Ok, right then, I tuned out the rest of the discussion (and it ended shortly after this), because all I could think of is what the older man said. Now, I am not saying which was right, and which was wrong. That is not why I am sharing this with you. What I want to share is this:

As I grew in Christ, and became a more mature Christian, I had many opportunities to interact with believers from many different churches/denominations and theological ideologies, and participated in more than a few discussions. The one thing that always struck me was the truth in that older man's words that day.

See, what I have come to believe is that more times than not, when people of differing opinions on theology begin to debate, they all (regardless of the side they are on) approach the debate in the same way........it's not their salvation they are fretting over, it's the other guys.......Meaning, people enter into a discussion already convinced that their belief is the true belief, and all who disagree are wrong.

This, in my opinion, renders the majority of theological discussions/debates "fruitless," and of no avail. With the possible exception that there may be one (such as I was) listening to that discussion/debate who gleans some new insight into Scripture. This is the only "fruitful" thing that can come from such discussions/debates in my opinion only I suppose.

 

[PennEd]

This assumes that those who believe in Eternal Security think that those who do not are lost. I believe in Eternal Security but think those that don't, yet believe the Gospel, are saved, but for whatever reasons the Lord has not yet given them the revelation that that they are indeed eternally secure in Him. BECAUSE HE is the One who keeps them secure.

So I don't think the discussion is fruitless. I have both been convinced, and convinced others by God's Grace, of this reality.

 

[mailmandan]

I've heard certain people in the NOSAS camp liken security in Christ to someone walking down a road with two high walls on both sides of the road and say that the believer is secure, but is still free to choose to climb over the wall to the other side and imply that only a small percentage of genuine born again Christians would end up losing their salvation.

Yet I've also heard others in the NOSAS camp liken security in Christ to someone walking on a tight rope in which suddenly we can slip off and perish and imply that many born again Christians will end up losing their salvation. I've even heard one NOSAS proponent claim that continuing in the faith, abiding in Christ etc.. is an extremely difficult burden that most Christians will surely fail to do and even implied that around 90% of born again Christians will end up losing their salvation. That latter type seems to believe they are "holier than thou" and surely will not slip off that tight rope, but most others will.

I believe there are brothers and sisters in Christ in both camps. My brother attends the Church of the Nazarene and does believe the gospel, but he also believes that a believer can lose their salvation, but would have to choose to completely turn their back on the Lord down the road and remain in that state to do so. Those in the OSAS camp often get accused of having a license to sin. I also believe that not everyone in both camps are necessarily saved in the first place. I've met people in the NOSAS camp (particularly Roman Catholics) who teach salvation by works who are strong proponents of NOSAS.

There may also be those who attend Christian churches that teach the gospel correctly but have never genuinely come to repent and believe the gospel. Such people may have even walked the aisle at church and said the sinner's prayer and believe that simply because they recited a prayer (apart from repentance and faith) that they are now saved and secure but are deceived. I believe in free will, yet I also believe that Christians are new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) and that God preserves His saints forever (Psalm 37:28).

 

[p_rehbein]

Just got my first cup poured, so the three brain cells still working are not yet connecting.........will be back....



PennEd..........I do want to say that the statement you made on the other Thread some time ago about the process you were going through (being purified) was one of the most Spirit filled statements/testimonies I have read on this Site......

 

[PennEd]

Just got my first cup poured, so the three brain cells still working are not yet connecting.........will be back....



PennEd..........I do want to say that the statement you made on the other Thread some time ago about the process you were going through (being purified) was one of the most Spirit filled statements/testimonies I have read on this Site......

Very kind of you to say.

To illustrate my post above, I also attend a Nazarene Church. The Holy Spirit is present there, yet I know what their articles of faith say about this issue, and I have talked to our lead Pastor about this. Yet I have no intention of leaving there over this issue.

So I agree with you in that this issue shouldn't divide the brethren. And I also agree with Dan, that there are both saved AND unsaved in the 2 camps.

 

[p_rehbein]

BTW: I used to attend a Nazarene Church, and I loved it. The only basic difference between their teachings and the CoG Reformation Movement is the "membership" thing.

I am praying now about this Thread. I would LOVE to be able to have a reasonable/respectful discussion about this subject with you and MailmanDan, and maybe Pottersclay....

Problem is, once I post my thoughts, some folks are going to come in, and it will end up being much like all the other Threads here on the BDF. I'm in a good place spiritually right now, and just do not want another brouhaha to deal with.........

It's an open Forum, so there is no way to exclude others from participating..........and, it usually ends up being me against however many show up.........and that gets to be a real "thang."

As well, I openly admit I am an old Soldier, and, sometimes, when some folks start in, my old Soldierness rises to the top.........and then nobody is happy.......

Anyway, if there was any way we could have the discussion, I would love to. I believe we could actually resolve some/if not all of the conflicts between the two thoughts of mind/Theology.

God bless you and yours

 

[Chester]

(I wrote/posted this several years ago, but, many of the recent discussions brought it back to my mind, and I thought it would be good to post it again. Mayhaps someone will benefit?)

"IT'S NOT MY SALVATION I'M FRETTING OVER"

When I was a young Christian, (just beginning my walk with Christ) I happened to take part in a discussion of Scripture with other believers. There were four of us there. There was an older man who never said what church/denomination he belonged to, and two men (middle aged) who stated they were Southern Baptist, and myself, and I attended a Church of God, Reformation Movement, Anderson, In..........

The two men began to question the older man, and asked him if he believed in once saved, always saved. He stated he did not, for he believed in free will. From that point, as often happens, the two men began to speak to him about the assurance of salvation, and quoted Scriptures from their Bibles, and wanted to know if he didn't want to have assurance of his salvation instead of always being concerned with loosing it? They talked for some time, and through it all, the older man smiled, and would sometimes chuckle quietly. The more they talked and quoted Scripture, the more the older man would smile, and I could see it was beginning to annoy the two men quite a lot. Finally, one of them almost shouted at the older man......What's wrong with you? Do you think this is funny? Don't you know this is serious?

The older man smiled and said, Why yes, I know it is quite serious, it's just that you misunderstood me. You see, it's not my salvation I'm fretting over, it's yours.................

Ok, right then, I tuned out the rest of the discussion (and it ended shortly after this), because all I could think of is what the older man said. Now, I am not saying which was right, and which was wrong. That is not why I am sharing this with you. What I want to share is this:

As I grew in Christ, and became a more mature Christian, I had many opportunities to interact with believers from many different churches/denominations and theological ideologies, and participated in more than a few discussions. The one thing that always struck me was the truth in that older man's words that day.

See, what I have come to believe is that more times than not, when people of differing opinions on theology begin to debate, they all (regardless of the side they are on) approach the debate in the same way........it's not their salvation they are fretting over, it's the other guys.......Meaning, people enter into a discussion already convinced that their belief is the true belief, and all who disagree are wrong.

This, in my opinion, renders the majority of theological discussions/debates "fruitless," and of no avail. With the possible exception that there may be one (such as I was) listening to that discussion/debate who gleans some new insight into Scripture. This is the only "fruitful" thing that can come from such discussions/debates in my opinion only I suppose.

One of the issues is that I believe it is God and not man that determines human destiny - heaven or hell. Whenever someone (of any doctrine) makes a judgment call about another's salvation red flags go up in my brain.

Do we need to care deeply about other's eternal destiny? Yes, indeed. But here on CC this thing is often used to belittle and manipulate: that is, one side on the other (or both!) uses the "trump card" of "you are not saved"!

 

[PennEd]

BTW: I used to attend a Nazarene Church, and I loved it. The only basic difference between their teachings and the CoG Reformation Movement is the "membership" thing.

I am praying now about this Thread. I would LOVE to be able to have a reasonable/respectful discussion about this subject with you and MailmanDan, and maybe Pottersclay....

Problem is, once I post my thoughts, some folks are going to come in, and it will end up being much like all the other Threads here on the BDF. I'm in a good place spiritually right now, and just do not want another brouhaha to deal with.........

It's an open Forum, so there is no way to exclude others from participating..........and, it usually ends up being me against however many show up.........and that gets to be a real "thang."

As well, I openly admit I am an old Soldier, and, sometimes, when some folks start in, my old Soldierness rises to the top.........and then nobody is happy.......

Anyway, if there was any way we could have the discussion, I would love to. I believe we could actually resolve some/if not all of the conflicts between the two thoughts of mind/Theology.

God bless you and yours

Funny what you say about the membership thing. We were attending there about 3 yrs when a voting proposal came up about Church renovations. So we go to vote and the person politely says " You can't vote if you're not a member". Bear in mind this is a Church with a couple thousand people including their kids.

I said well, we have been going faithfully every Sunday, giving tithes and offerings, attend several midweek Bible studies, even gone abroad on Missions trips for 3 yrs, doesn't THAT make us members?

Apparently not! LOL So it was no big deal. We took a couple of hours class and now we're members!

 

[p_rehbein]

Came a time when the one I was going to (couple of the men) asked me if I wanted to become a member. They told me some about the process, and, afterwards, I asked them if they would compromise their beliefs for me.

They responded as one would expect.......so I said, should I compromise my beliefs for you?

I still loved going there, and, like you, tithed, but I never joined.

I firmly believe (as the CoG Reformation Movement teaches/believes) that ALL blood bought/born again, professing Christians who strive to live a Godly life ARE ALREADY members of His Church. Man can not make us members, no more than man can save us....

Now, if folks want to do that membership thing, that's fine with me.... God bless 'em......but I'll pass

Oh, the church grew, and bought new property away from where I lived, and built a nice building.......and I pray they are doing well.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

This assumes that those who believe in Eternal Security think that those who do not are lost. I believe in Eternal Security but think those that don't, yet believe the Gospel, are saved, but for whatever reasons the Lord has not yet given them the revelation that that they are indeed eternally secure in Him. BECAUSE HE is the One who keeps them secure.

So I don't think the discussion is fruitless. I have both been convinced, and convinced others by God's Grace, of this reality.

I accept that some that reject eternal security are saved, but on the whole . . . no. Why? Because they believe that there is a human element, that is, personal merit involved. They believe that Christ's death on the cross was not enough as they have to add their 10, 15, 20, 50%. They are not trusting in Christ's finished work and are relying on the filthy rags of works.

Why do I believe some are saved? Well, in some areas churches run busses and kids get saved. Then they get unchurched and fall into the hands of heretic who confused them. Heck, some of them are even JW's and Mormons.

 

[Hevosmies]

Came a time when the one I was going to (couple of the men) asked me if I wanted to become a member. They told me some about the process, and, afterwards, I asked them if they would compromise their beliefs for me.

They responded as one would expect.......so I said, should I compromise my beliefs for you?

I still loved going there, and, like you, tithed, but I never joined.

I firmly believe (as the CoG Reformation Movement teaches/believes) that ALL blood bought/born again, professing Christians who strive to live a Godly life ARE ALREADY members of His Church. Man can not make us members, no more than man can save us....

Now, if folks want to do that membership thing, that's fine with me.... God bless 'em......but I'll pass

Oh, the church grew, and bought new property away from where I lived, and built a nice building.......and I pray they are doing well.

I read about your movement from the wikipedia. It seems hardcore.

Is it true that you dont even use wedding rings? I like the modest way of dressing too!

This is all from wiki btw, so if its wrong NOT MY FAULT. We dont have that church where I live.

 

[p_rehbein]

I read about your movement from the wikipedia. It seems hardcore.

Is it true that you dont even use wedding rings? I like the modest way of dressing too!

This is all from wiki btw, so if its wrong NOT MY FAULT. We dont have that church where I live.

When first founded, they were hard core......but with time and study of Scripture and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we became less strict. I still laugh that: one time it was a sin for a man to wear a tie, and then it wasn't, then it was, then it wasn't.......think they got tired of changing their minds/theology and just left the tie thingy as optional......

We are strict on some things. While we extend the hand of Christian Fellowship to any who profess to be a disciple of Christ.....blood bought, born again, and are striving to live a Christian life.........They are welcome to our congregation..........and are considered members if they choose to be. Now, voting rights are more strict, simply because we believe a person should be there awhile before helping determine how God's monies are spent. What is needed, what is not........stuff like that. However, if the Congregation wishes, they can simply by Aye's say the person CAN vote regardless of how long they have been attending.

We have NO CREED but the Holy Bible. We believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ......We are Holiness, not Pentecostal, we fully believe in the Holy Trinity.

The most strict we are now I guess is that a person MUST be approved by the Elders of the State before they are allowed to be a Pastor. They MUST adhere to CoG Reformation Movement Theology. And why not? Do not all other Churches do that? On occasion, we will have a Guest Speaker who may not be CoGRM.......like, once a year, the Gideon's will send a couple of people by to speak........ Had a Methodist Preacher one time........

anyway.........thanks

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

I know a lost person that went to one of those churches while searching for a place to attend. He didn't know anything about standards because no one had ever shown him the Scriptures. Anyway, he was dressed in a shirt and jeans and when he entered the building, someone looked at him and ask, "Are you sure you are in the right place?"

He turned around and left and his search ended.

Thanks there, CoGRM.

 

[tourist]

Very kind of you to say.

To illustrate my post above, I also attend a Nazarene Church. The Holy Spirit is present there, yet I know what their articles of faith say about this issue, and I have talked to our lead Pastor about this. Yet I have no intention of leaving there over this issue.

So I agree with you in that this issue shouldn't divide the brethren. And I also agree with Dan, that there are both saved AND unsaved in the 2 camps.

I attended a Nazarene church for years and believe that they have a firm grasp on fundamental spiritual matters.

 

[Deade]

See, what I have come to believe is that more times than not, when people of differing opinions on theology begin to debate, they all (regardless of the side they are on) approach the debate in the same way........it's not their salvation they are fretting over, it's the other guys.......Meaning, people enter into a discussion already convinced that their belief is the true belief, and all who disagree are wrong.

That is exactly why I quit speculating on another's salvation. If a man is happy with his relationship with God, leave him be. I certainly would not want to make him unhappy. Such speculation can only lead to division. We need to have a testimony ready in case someone asks us what we hope in.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

That is exactly why I quit speculating on another's salvation. If a man is happy with his relationship with God, leave him be. I certainly would not want to make him unhappy. Such speculation can only lead to division. We need to have a testimony ready in case someone asks us what we hope in.

"Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone" (Hosea 4:17).

I don't mind letting them be, but when they start to teach their false gospel on a site such as this, I'm going to say something, lest by my silence I am seen to agree with him and some other person be led astray.

 

[Lillywolf]

John 3
....you are condemned already because you believe not.

Isaiah 46:10

 

[p_rehbein]

 

[p_rehbein]

DISCUSSION ON O.S.A.S.

For: PennEd and MailmanDan

I will try and see if we can do this without too many distractions/disruptions. I will preface this Post by saying I believe we all have a right to believe as we feel we are led to believe. I will not criticize you for your beliefs.

Regarding O.S.A.S., in my opinion, it is easiest to approach the discussion by breaking it down into three parts.
1: The conflict between O.S.A.S. and Free Will
2: The teachings of Christ
3: The teachings of the Apostle Paul

I want to start with the conflict between O.S.A.S. and free will, simply because if we can not resolve that, then there is no hope of any resolution between the two beliefs.

I firmly believe in Free Will, and I posted a Thread showing 4 pages of Scripture which I believe clearly establishes that man was given the gift of Free Will by God. In fact, I believe that the first gift God gave man was "life." The second was "free will." Any who wish to know my reasons for believeing in Free Will can go to the Thread and read the Scriptures I posted.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/understanding-free-will-revisited.180137/

The basis of O.S.A.S. (in my opinion) is that once man is saved (whatever definition one chooses to use), neither any power in the heavens or the earth, NOR he can separate him from his fellowship with God. His status as a child of God and heir to the Promise. I fully agree that God will never leave or forsake man, and that no other power in the heavens or the earth can separate man from God's fellowship, but man (if free will is Truth) has the power to do so. It is also important to understand that in Romans, Chapter 8, when Paul spoke of this, he said "nor any other creature," (vs. 39). Key there is "any other creature." Paul never says "we" can not separate ourselves from God. In fact, what Paul says is: "shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." God loves all men. Those in His fellowship (His children) and those apart from Him (sinners). So, Paul is correct in that no thing, or person can stop God from loving us, but that is not the same as a person turning their back on God and denying His love and fellowship.

The basis of Free Will (in my opinion) is that man has the power to freely choose his destiny. He can choose to accept Christ as Savior, and choose to remain in His loving arms, OR he can choose to turn his back on God and deny Christ, which immediately separates him from God's fellowship, and his eternal status with God.

Therein lies the conflict. O.S.A.S. (if it is true) would negate Free Will once a person is saved. Their God given gift to freely choose would be taken back by God, and they would no longer possess the ability to choose to remain in His fellowship, or turn away from His fellowship. That, in my opinion, is nothing more than Calvinist Lite. Neither salvation, nor free will can be a gift IF the recipient of the gift has no choice in the acceptance of or denial of the gift. Thus, if it is not a gift, then it is salvation forced upon those God chooses to force it upon.

Everything in Scripture I read convinces me that God seeks loving, faithful children who choose to believe in Him, and choose to be in His fellowship, and not people that are required to love him and be in His fellowship. If a person is required to do anything, and has no choice in what they can or can not do, than that person is little more than a slave (in my opinion), and I do not believe God wants a Church of slaves to love, worship and praise Him. If this was His desire, He could have simply created a race of people to do just that.

One additional thought concerning Free Will is the word "if." "If" indicates that there is a choice to be made. Start in Matthew, Chpt. 1, vs. 1 and read to the last verse of Jude, and every time you find the word "if," determine what choice is being presented to man. That reveals that man certainly has free will in my opinion. Christ Himself (on more than one occasion) stated that He came to earth not to do HIS will, but Gods will, and, in the Garden, prayed "nevertheless, not MY will, but THY will be done." That is free will established by Christ Himself in my opinion. He chose to do Gods will, and not to do what He wished or desired. "If at all possible, let this cup pass......"

This is getting longer than I thought it would, so, at the risk of leaving something "unsaid/explained," I'm going to stop now, and, if needed, add to it later.

Will wait for the both of you to comment before I post any additional comments......

God bless

 

[PennEd]

A bondservant does indeed willingly give himself to his master for life. This was symbolized by having his ear pierced with an awl to the doorpost of the master's house.
However, EVEN in Paul's case, it is highly debatable that he freely chose to follow Christ. Having very likely heard the Gospel from the preaching Apostles he so vigorously tried to destroy, it was ONLY when the Lord Himself intervened by knocking him on his butt did he believe and follow.

I find it exceedingly difficult to find free will in the Bible. And I am SOOOO very grateful for that! If left to MY OWN will, I must always choose to satisfy the sin in my flesh.

I know the Lord calls us friends and no longer servants, but since I believe He gives us the faith to believe, that faith is then used to become a bondservant , at least in this life, to Him.

Romans 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God

Romans 6:16 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?


When thinking of the free will issue, I think we need to meditate on Matthew 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a [i]copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground APART from your Father’s will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.


Thanks for opening up a hopefully civil and loving debate.