Not By Works

[preacher4truth]

It always gets me how folks like pyongping dismiss the eternal torment of the wicked of which they will suffer by doing a "word meaning" study of the words "eternal" or "forever" or "everlasting" making false claims of duration.

Apply their heresy to God himself, who is himself eternal, everlasting &c and they are left with a God who will be around "for a long time" but not forever, and who then must have existed a long while, but cannot be the One who has existed for all time and eternity.

And what of our eternal life promised by our LORD to all who believe? Well, apply their faulty hermeneutic here, and we really won't go on for eternity, but just "for a long while."

As you can see the inconsistency of this hermeneutic shows it to be erroneous. Those who deny the eternal suffering of the damned, shown clearly in Scripture, are in grave error and show a severe lacking in accepting, believing and understanding the true character, nature and attributes of God.

Their's is a truncated version and caricature of the true God of the Scriptures and such falsities will lead many to embrace the spurious gospel of Universalism.

 

[dcontroversal]

The freewill thread was started because of a thread I posted . . . and the author kept taunting me on my view. It was a classic situation of not feeling like casting pearls before swine. If he wants to know my position on the issue he can read my threads . . . I'll probably kick the tires on that one eventually. He just couldn't get past the fact that Christians sin even though they have been bought with a price. Well, he is going to unfortunately find out that his own merits are filthy rags and by then it might be too late to matter.

Yeah I read through it.....he is not the one that railed on me for just quoting scripture....and i agree with your assessment.......any and all who keep themselves "saved" by their supposed OBEDIENCE will find out that A) They were not as obedient as they thin they were and B) Their path was not the path that led to heaven.........

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

More likely than not these people are going to websites where they glean their facts which are already prepared and packaged for them. That way they go from their computer to this site without ever having to go through the brains of either.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Yeah I read through it.....he is not the one that railed on me for just quoting scripture....and i agree with your assessment.......any and all who keep themselves "saved" by their supposed OBEDIENCE will find out that A) They were not as obedient as they thin they were and B) Their path was not the path that led to heaven.........

Lots of people in hell are going to bewail the fact that they were 'so' sincere! They will hate the person that convinced them of a lie, and our witness to them will constantly be replayed for them in their memory. For all eternity their thought will be, "if only I had listened, if only I were not so proud!"

 

[Studyman]

="mailmandan, post: 3739370, member: 193497"]They may have externally done them in Christ's name (just like Benny Hinn and other false teachers) yet Christ NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved/not genuine believers. Allow that to sink in. So anyone who has ever prophesied in the Bible or cast out demons etc.. was not doing the "works" that God foreordained for His people to walk in? In Matthew 10:1, we see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. Works of God or works of man?

"yet Christ NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved/not genuine believers. Allow that to sink in."

Exactly. They never had God's Grace to begin with. They thought they did. They believed they did. They honored Him with their "LIPS", But the Christ didn't even know them. Why?

You preach one thing and the Christ preaches another.

Let this sink in. These guys had just been resurrected, they just realized it isn't the first resurrection, but the second. They see the Lake of Fire, they see the judgment seat and have come to understand their fate "IN THAT DAY".

they were not bragging about how big their church is or how many people they fed at the local Bingo game. They were defending their religion to the Judge. They could have just as well said; "But Lord, Lord, we did everything the pastor of our church told us to do"

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He didn't say "ye that did wonderful works in My name" or "ye that cast out devils in My name". that is your religion, your words, the imaginations of your own mind, or some preacher you "believe" in. But the Christ didn't say that Dan. He said He rejected them, never knew them, because they obviously heard His Word's and sayings, but didn't "DO" them. That is what iniquity is. The same thing He has said from the very beginning.

2 Tim. 2:
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already (You are already immortal, already saved) and overthrow the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one (Jew and Gentile) that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

If you don't depart from iniquity "Transgressing God's Commandments", then the Christ doesn't know you. It doesn't matter how many poor people you feed, how big your church is, how much you believe you are saved, what you preach, all that doesn't matter one bit.

Just like Paul said:

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Just like Peter said:

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Just like the Christ said:

Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever (Jew or Gentile) heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

26 And every one (Jew or Gentile) that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

I can not erase these Word's placed in my heart just to get "likes" from you and Decon.

 

[dcontroversal]

"yet Christ NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved/not genuine believers. Allow that to sink in."

Exactly. They never had God's Grace to begin with. They thought they did. They believed they did. They honored Him with their "LIPS", But the Christ didn't even know them. Why?

You preach one thing and the Christ preaches another.

Let this sink in. These guys had just been resurrected, they just realized it isn't the first resurrection, but the second. They see the Lake of Fire, they see the judgment seat and have come to understand their fate "IN THAT DAY".

they were not bragging about how big their church is or how many people they fed at the local Bingo game. They were defending their religion to the Judge. They could have just as well said; "But Lord, Lord, we did everything the pastor of our church told us to do"

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He didn't say "ye that did wonderful works in My name" or "ye that cast out devils in My name". that is your religion, your words, the imaginations of your own mind, or some preacher you "believe" in. But the Christ didn't say that Dan. He said He rejected them, never knew them, because they obviously heard His Word's and sayings, but didn't "DO" them. That is what iniquity is. The same thing He has said from the very beginning.

2 Tim. 2:
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already (You are already immortal, already saved) and overthrow the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one (Jew and Gentile) that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

If you don't depart from iniquity "Transgressing God's Commandments", then the Christ doesn't know you. It doesn't matter how many poor people you feed, how big your church is, how much you believe you are saved, what you preach, all that doesn't matter one bit.

Just like Paul said:

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Just like Peter said:

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Just like the Christ said:

Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever (Jew or Gentile) heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

26 And every one (Jew or Gentile) that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

I can not erase these Word's placed in my heart just to get "likes" from you and Decon.

I could care less what you like or dislike......at the end of the day you peddle a false dogma because you conflate too many biblical truths into one big bowl of wrong.....

 

[Studyman]

those you believe that salvation is losable have ignored the promise "I will neither leave you nor forsake you"

But man can leave and forsake the Word of God, and join a more popular "path" with more people on it. An easier path. The Christ warned about this.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

But man can leave and forsake the Word of God, and join a more popular "path" with more people on it. An easier path. The Christ warned about this.

Have you ever lost your salvation and got it back? (Hebrews 6:4-6)

 

[dcontroversal]

But man can leave and forsake the Word of God, and join a more popular "path" with more people on it. An easier path. The Christ warned about this.

Funny you say that while being oblivious to the fact that the broad path you are on is what the majority pushes....and exactly why JESUS states that the number that comes before his throne is PLENTEOUS--->THEY believe exactly what you espouse and push..which is....

a. They call him LORD
b. They push their WORKS in HIS name as their right to enter

MAKE no mistake pal....within the ranks of Christianity the MINORITY teaches saved eternally by faith and the security of the believer

 

[TruthTalk]

Lots of people in hell are going to be wail the fact that they were 'so' sincere! They will hate the person that convinced them of a lie, and our witness to them will constantly be replayed for them in their memory. For all eternity their thought will be, "if only I had listened, if only I were not so proud!"

Hi BaptistBibleBeliever, I first came to Christianchat.com with the hopes of making an Internet Christian friend or two. But now I can see that people here are filled with compassion and the love of God for the lost and those who are seeking the truth. Seeing there is a "huge hunger and thirst" for Gods word everyone here can lift up their gospel light and let God's word bring hope to a world that is full of "Christ-less Eyes."

God bless!

Title: "Loved with Everlasting Love." - From the Baptist Hymn Book, Psalm & Hymns
Heaven above is softer blue
Earth around is sweeter green;
Something lives in every hue
Christless eyes have never seen
Birds with gladder songs o'erflow
Flowers with deeper beauties shine
Since I know, as now I know,
I am His, and He is mine."

George Wade Robinson: A Pastor, an Irish Poet & Hymnist
Robinson was educated at Trinity College, Dublin, and New College, St. John’s Wood, London. He entered the congregational ministry and was co-pastor at York Street Chapel in Dublin with Dr. Urwick. He then became pastor at St. John’s Wood, Dudley, and at Union Street, Brighton. His most remembered poetry is in the hymn "Loved with Everlasting Love" with its chorus "I am His and he His mine."
He died in Southampton on 23 January 1877.

 

[TruthTalk]

But man can leave and forsake the Word of God, and join a more popular "path" with more people on it. An easier path. "The Christ" warned about this.

Hi Studyman, when you say, "The Christ", my first impression is you are referring to "the Messiah" in the same manner as the Prophets of Old would refer to that which was promised from God. It just sounds rather odd and impersonal that you would refer to our "Lord and Savior" as "the Christ." It would be like me calling my dad, the Father, in stead of Abba, or Daddy, "the Christ", sounds distant and impersonal.

Titles or names that we place on our relationships say a lot about how we think of that person, and even now Jesus calls us "His Friends." Just wondering why you would use the personal pronoun, "the Christ.", it seems kind of impersonal to me, thanks.

 

[Studyman]

They were only touting works. We are not saved by works as all Christians know. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. They never mentioned grace!!

Yes, we are saved by Grace. But obviously these folks didn't receive His Grace, even though they "believed" in the Christ, and gave Him all the Credit for EVERYTHING they Did, all in His Name.

I think you are forgetting some important facts regarding this scripture.

These folks had just been resurrected, they see that it is not the first resurrection they expected, but the second, they see the Lake of Fire and the fate that awaits them "IN THAT DAY". They were not touting their works, they were defending their religion, making their case. "Lord, Lord, don't you know who we are? We taught people all over the Word about you, we did "EVERYTHING in the Name of the Lord.

17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.


The point you are neglecting to "see" is that this Many were convinced of something that was not true. Why don't I ever hear this question.

"Wasn't the Christ able to "save them"? Were they not sinners like you until they turned to the Christ? "Why wasn't their sin covered, as they believed, but yours are, as you believe? Are you more "righteous" than them?

So why didn't His Grace cover them but covers you and the thousands of other self proclaimed Christians who call Him Lord, Lord, teach in His Name, Feed people in His Name, build great churches all in His Name?

I could "believe" what the Christ said and understand that they were not given Grace because they continued in Transgression of God's Commandments, which are not "Works Worthy of repentance" as the Christ and His Apostles taught.

But then that would mean I have a part in my own salvation, a belief that is rejected and taught against by "many" on this very forum every day.

But the Christ also, in the same Chapter, warned about the "Broad Path" "many" are on.

So maybe the Christ is right, and it is the religions of the land which continue in "transgressions of God's Commandment, iniquity that are on the wrong path.

At any rate, I don't wish to wait until "That day" to find out I was deceived. I will do as He instructs now and "put on" the whole armor of God.

2 Tim. 2:
15 Study (the Christ doesn't Study for me) to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already (You are already saved, already immortal) and overthrow the faith of some. (How can this be?)

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one (Jew and Gentile) that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (transgressing God's Commandments by their own religious traditions as the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time did.)

 

[mailmandan]

I could care less what you like or dislike......at the end of the day you peddle a false dogma because you conflate too many biblical truths into one big bowl of wrong.....

The end result is salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works." He seems to be under the delusion that ONLY he properly obeys the Lord and will be saved based on the merits of his performance, but the rest of us do not properly obey the Lord and will not be saved due to a lack of performance. So it is with misguided teachers of the law.

 

[Studyman]

Hi Studyman, when you say, "The Christ", my first impression is you are referring to "the Messiah" in the same manner as the Prophets of Old would refer to that which was promised from God. It just sounds rather odd and impersonal that you would refer to our "Lord and Savior" as "the Christ." It would be like me calling my dad, the Father, in stead of Abba, or Daddy, "the Christ", sounds distant and impersonal.

Titles or names that we place on our relationships say a lot about how we think of that person, and even now Jesus calls us "His Friends." Just wondering why you would use the personal pronoun, "the Christ.", it seems kind of impersonal to me, thanks.

Yes, I see that labels are important to many of you.

I am fascinated by what draws your attention in various posts.

And yes, there are many opinions and religious doctrines bandied about. For me, when I hear the name Jesus, the images of God created by religious man in the likeness of man always come to my mind. This "image", known world wide as the "Christian god" is not the Christ Jesus of the Bible, but was created by those who call Him Lord, Lord in direct rebellion to the very first of his 10 Commandments.

It's a personal thing for me, I don't want to infect my mind with idols and images of God created in rebellion to the Word of God which became Flesh. For me, using the word "Christ" brings my mind to the Word of God, not a picture of some long haired men's hair shampoo model. It helps me resist the influence of the "other voice" that we have all grown up with.

It is a very personal thing between me and the Christ. I'm quite sure He doesn't mind.

29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

"and that Rock was Christ"

18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

 

[dcontroversal]

Hi Studyman, when you say, "The Christ", my first impression is you are referring to "the Messiah" in the same manner as the Prophets of Old would refer to that which was promised from God. It just sounds rather odd and impersonal that you would refer to our "Lord and Savior" as "the Christ." It would be like me calling my dad, the Father, in stead of Abba, or Daddy, "the Christ", sounds distant and impersonal.

Titles or names that we place on our relationships say a lot about how we think of that person, and even now Jesus calls us "His Friends." Just wondering why you would use the personal pronoun, "the Christ.", it seems kind of impersonal to me, thanks.

Amen.......Jesus works for me.....of course Hebrew roots, Pharisees, Cainologists must portray themselves as these super duper hyper religious types.......the Thief on the cross simply said LORD remember me in your kingdom.....imagine the simplicity of that one....no religious affiliation, no immersion, no good works, a LAW BREAKER being killed for crimes committed and yet received into the Kingdom by a mere act of belief......sounds biblical to me.........oh wait....it is biblical!

 

[TruthTalk]

Yes, I see that labels are important to many of you.

I am fascinated by what draws your attention in various posts.

And yes, there are many opinions and religious doctrines bandied about. For me, when I hear the name Jesus, the images of God created by religious man in the likeness of man always come to my mind. This "image", known world wide as the "Christian god" is not the Christ Jesus of the Bible, but was created by those who call Him Lord, Lord in direct rebellion to the very first of his 10 Commandments.

It's a personal thing for me, I don't want to infect my mind with idols and images of God created in rebellion to the Word of God which became Flesh. For me, using the word "Christ" brings my mind to the Word of God, not a picture of some long haired men's hair shampoo model. It helps me resist the influence of the "other voice" that we have all grown up with.

It is a very personal thing between me and the Christ. I'm quite sure He doesn't mind.

29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

"and that Rock was Christ"

18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

Okay good answer thanks and God bless.

 

[UnderGrace]

Amen.......Jesus works for me.....of course Hebrew roots, Pharisees, Cainologists must portray themselves as these super duper hyper religious types.......the Thief on the cross simply said LORD remember me in your kingdom.....imagine the simplicity of that one....no religious affiliation, no immersion, no good works, a LAW BREAKER being killed for crimes committed and yet received into the Kingdom by a mere act of belief......sounds biblical to me.........oh wait....it is biblical!

There is only One Righteous and only He can give Righteousness to a person, in other words a person cannot manufacture something they do not have.....hence "depart from me I never knew you"

 

[UnderGrace]

Okay good answer thanks and God bless.

Truthtalk, you make it easy to come to C.C. and you remind me, there is no reason to take or make posts personal. Thank you!!

 

[Studyman]

Have you ever lost your salvation and got it back? (Hebrews 6:4-6)

I think the Christ is warning folks about believing something that isn't true. That is what "Deception" is. In Matthew 7 He was speaking about "many" who "believed" they are saved, already immortal, already all set. But in the end they found out they had been deceived, just as Eve was. He tells us this truth now, so we can use the tools and "armor" He created for us and wore as a man, to resist the deception.

Sadly, "many" religious men are already deceived into believing they are already immortal, therefore they don't need God's instructions.

I don't know that I am saved. The Christ says if I endure to the end I shall be saved. But right now I can die. My hope is that I will be part of the first resurrection, and I am "working" with my Savior as He "perfects my Faith".

Ph. 2:
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 cor. 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

1 Cor. 15:
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Rom. 11:
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Of course if a person is convinced as was Eve, that they have nothing to fear. That they are already immortal, already saved, then these Word's of God, and many more warnings are of no use to them.

I think that is satans goal from the very beginning. This is why the Christ said we are to "Live by EVERY WORD which proceeds from the mouth of God". In this way we can know what is true and what is not.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Hi Grace

How does it refer to the vine and the branches?
If as you agree the Romans chapter in hand is about national/corporate salvation, then is that not the same context with vine and the branches.

Those who believe that one can lose their salvation often quote the vine and the branches but I can't recall anyone quoting Romans and working it back.

So you are the first.
So will you let me know how you come to your conclusion?

Sure.
Paul could only teach what Jesus had already taught the Apostles and what the Apostles taught Paul and what he gleaned from the Holy Spirit working in him to write such important books as Romans.

As you've stated, Romans 9, 10 and 11 is about corporate sanctification and should not be used to prove anything personal...many will use verses such as Romans 9:15 to show that God chooses us and not the other way around (Calvinism teaches this). This should really not be done because Paul is speaking here about the nation of Israel being chosen by God, and not each one of us individually. God chose the Hebrews through which to reveal Himself.

However Paul did include also some very personal verses: For example Romans 10:9 .. if we confess with our mouth Jesus as Lord and believe with our heart, it will result in righteousness. So we have to distinguish which verses are personal and which are corporate and this is not always done.

Also, getting back to Paul - he could only teach what Jesus taught. Jesus taught that HE is the vine through which we get our life. If we are cut off from this vine, we wither and die. This is found in John 15:1-6; specifically 5 and 6. IF ANYONE does NOT ABIDE IN HIM, he (personal) is thrown away as a branch, and dries up, and the dry branches are gathered and cast into the fire and they are burned.

This is the same language used in Romans 11:19-23
11:19 Branches were broken off to make room for the Gentiles (corporate)
11:20 They were broken off for unbelief, but YOU stand by your faith, do not be conceited but fear ('personal)
11:21 If God did not spare the natural branches neither did He spare you. (corporate and personal- because it refers back to what Jesus said in John 15)
11:22 God can be kind or severe: Severe to those who fell (can a nation go to hell? This is personal)
Kindness to us IF WE CONTINUE or else we also will be cut-off. (this sounds very personal to me since a nation, as a whole, will not go to heaven).

This seems clear enough...you may disagree.