Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

[justpassinthrough]

Salvation, saved, save, according to Greek is "a deliverance". Holding to the gospel can deliver you as you live here on earth, but believing the gospel is not the cause of your eternal salvation, if so, it would be eternal salvation because of man's actions and not by God's grace.

According to the words of Paul, believing must be present tense, for salvation to be present tense.


Otherwise if a person who no longer believes and returns to a life of sin, is still saved, even if they turn to Islam or Buddhism or any other religion.



JLB

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Let's go through the verse again, shall we?

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ (why did we believe in Jesus Christ?), that we might be justified by the faith of Christ (we believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by Him and not by the works of the law. The works of the law has to do with our individual faith and our ability to live by them. Christ ended the law for righteousness), and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Believing in Jesus Christ, clearly precedes our justification.

By the works of the law shall no man be justified. Anything that man is required to do to get eternal life is a work of the law. If it is required for man to believe in Jesus it would be a work. God's grace requires nothing for man to do. John 12:47 - And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not; for I came not to judge the world (of the elect), but to save the world (of the elect). All scripture must harmonize or you do not understand the doctrine of Jesus. The natural man, until he has been regenerated, cannot believe in a spiritual God, or his spiritual laws. So, believing can not come before justification.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Brother,

Do the lost need salvation?



JLB

The natural man is lost and needs to be delivered eternally. The only way the natural man can be delivered eternally is for God to regenerate him (Eph 2:5). The regenerated child of God is lost (separated from fellowship with God) when he sins against God's commandments by yielding to his fleshly desires, until he repents and regains a right standing with God. This is why, when you see scriptures that use the words, repent, confess, accept, believe etc. it is always referring to the disobedient child of God. The natural man has no guilt to confess, or repent of breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern. That is why those regenerated Jews were PRICKED in their hearts and the Jews that stoned Steven were CUT to the heart. Salvation according to Greek is "a deliverance". Most of the salvation scriptures are pertaining to a deliverance we experience here on earth.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

According to the words of Paul, believing must be present tense, for salvation to be present tense.


Otherwise if a person who no longer believes and returns to a life of sin, is still saved, even if they turn to Islam or Buddhism or any other religion.



JLB

That is true. You cannot undo regeneration.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

According to the words of Paul, believing must be present tense, for salvation to be present tense.


Otherwise if a person who no longer believes and returns to a life of sin, is still saved, even if they turn to Islam or Buddhism or any other religion.



JLB

All of these many denominations who are preaching a false doctrine that is not the doctrine that Jesus taught are still regenerated children of God, they are just disobedient children of God, in need of repentance.

 

[John146]

By the works of the law shall no man be justified. Anything that man is required to do to get eternal life is a work of the law. If it is required for man to believe in Jesus it would be a work.

You are privately interpreting God's word. Allow God's word to define itself. Belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ is not a work of the law, no matter how you spin it.

 

[Endoscopy]

Maybe in your mind, but not according to Scripture. Did you read Galatians 2:16? Even we have believed in Jesus Christ THAT we might be justified by the faith of Christ and not the works of the law.

Why believe in Jesus Christ? To be justified by His faith. Belief comes first. You twist Scripture to conform it to your theology.

Here is John 3:16 AMPC notice how strong the words believes in becomes.

John 3 AMPC Amplified Classic
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

 

[carl11]

You are privately interpreting God's word. Allow God's word to define itself. Belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ is not a work of the law, no matter how you spin it.

Jn. 6:29

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Jn. 6:29

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

And Eph 2:5 explains exactly why it is the work of God. God regenerated them and put his Spirit within them before they could believe in spiritual things, such as, the gospel.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Here is John 3:16 AMPC notice how strong the words believes in becomes.

John 3 AMPC Amplified Classic
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

Our faith is believing that the faith of Jesus is what justified us. We did not have access to a faith until after we were regenerated and given the Holy Spirit. Faith is "a fruit" of the Spirit. No Spirit, no faith.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You are privately interpreting God's word. Allow God's word to define itself. Belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ is not a work of the law, no matter how you spin it.

If you hold to the fact that "your belief in the gospel" is the cause of your eternal salvation, then it is a work, a requirement for man to conform to in order to get eternal life. Eternal salvation is given by the grace of God, without the help of man.

 

[John146]

If you hold to the fact that "your belief in the gospel" is the cause of your eternal salvation, then it is a work, a requirement for man to conform to in order to get eternal life. Eternal salvation is given by the grace of God, without the help of man.

Belief is not a work of the law. Why don't you understand this? No works of the law can save a man. Believing the gospel of Jesus Christ is not a work of the law.

Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness (through works of the law), have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God (through belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ).
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Belief is not a work of the law. Why don't you understand this? No works of the law can save a man. Believing the gospel of Jesus Christ is not a work of the law.

Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness (through works of the law), have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God (through belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ).
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

You are completely ignoring 1 Cor 2:14. The natural man, void of the Spirit, cannot discern spiritual things. He first has to have the Holy Spirit before he can understand spiritual things, The transformation of the natural man happens in this order: 1. regeneration 2. indwelling of the Holy Spirit 3. faith 4. hear and understand-believe 5. increase faith

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Belief is not a work of the law. Why don't you understand this? No works of the law can save a man. Believing the gospel of Jesus Christ is not a work of the law.

Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness (through works of the law), have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God (through belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ).
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[John146]

You are completely ignoring 1 Cor 2:14. The natural man, void of the Spirit, cannot discern spiritual things. He first has to have the Holy Spirit before he can understand spiritual things, The transformation of the natural man happens in this order: 1. regeneration 2. indwelling of the Holy Spirit 3. faith 4. hear and understand-believe 5. increase faith

Cannot the Holy Spirit lead a natural man to understand his need of a Savior, and through hearing the gospel preached, lead that man to the saving knowledge of the Savior? Then it's up to the natural man to heed the calling or reject it?

What about Jesus' disciples? Did they understand spiritual things? They did not have the Holy Spirit within them? What about the OT saints?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Belief is not a work of the law. Why don't you understand this? No works of the law can save a man. Believing the gospel of Jesus Christ is not a work of the law.

Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness (through works of the law), have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God (through belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ).
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 10: Saved, according to Greek is "delivered - literally or figuratively". The people that Paul was talking about were regenerated children of God, who had "a ZEAL of God" but not of knowledge and were going about to establish their own righteousness (by their works) and had not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. This verse explains the condition of most of the people on this forum. There is a deliverance, here on earth, when we come unto a knowledge of the truth. When we are first regenerated, we are babes in Christ until we grow in knowledge.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Cannot the Holy Spirit lead a natural man to understand his need of a Savior, and through hearing the gospel preached, lead that man to the saving knowledge of the Savior? Then it's up to the natural man to heed the calling or reject it?

What about Jesus' disciples? Did they understand spiritual things? They did not have the Holy Spirit within them? What about the OT saints?

They were newly regenerated children of God and were babes in Christ, in need of a greater faith in growing in the knowledge of God. The natural man cannot discern the spiritual gospel, even if he hears it, it is foolishness unto him. The natural does not think he needs to be saved from breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern.

 

[John146]

They were newly regenerated children of God and were babes in Christ, in need of a greater faith in growing in the knowledge of God. The natural man cannot discern the spiritual gospel, even if he hears it, it is foolishness unto him. The natural does not think he needs to be saved from breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern.

The disciples did not have the Holy Spirit. According to your theology, how could they understand any spiritual thing Jesus taught them?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The disciples did not have the Holy Spirit. According to your theology, how could they understand any spiritual thing Jesus taught them?

They were Holy men of God, with the Holy Spirit "UPON" them, and did not understand Jesus's doctrine.

 

[Endoscopy]

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues. Here are the defence biblically of the Arminianism and Calvinism. Each has opposing views on this issue. The defence have a lengthy dissertation with accompanying scripture references for each of their 5 points. One point deals with this issue.

Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/