Speaking in tongues

[presidente]

Tongues, God brining new prophecy in respect to the language of all the nations of the world .Is a sign against the unbelieving Jew that made the word of God (prophecy) to no effect by the oral traditions of men .

This looks like religious phrase salad. It's like you took a bunch of religious phrases, mixed them up randomly in a bowl, and threw them on a plate.

No sign gifts to those who walk by faith the unseen eternal. Without his faith working in us to both will and do his good pleasure we could never find the spiritual understanding hid in His parables. Now that we have the whole or perfect with no laws missing by which we could know God not seen more adequately. The 20/20 prescription below must be applied to the parables.

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.2 Corinthians 4:18

So, would you have us believe that the men who performed signs in the Bible, Paul, Peter and the other of the twelve apostles, Philip, and other saints not mentioned by name, and even the Lord Jesus did not have faith, but that you have faith because you don't do signs? I don't think you'll get anyone to accept that idea.

 

[presidente]

let's talk about the other gifts because there are already 101 arguments (notice I didn't say debates) going on already with regards to tongues

you know, it's your neighborhood after all and you might ask the neighborhood why

how would we know

so, what do you think of the gift of discerning of spirits? that oughtta make for interesting opinions

How about another thread on gifts besides tongues?

 

[garee]

This looks like religious phrase salad. It's like you took a bunch of religious phrases, mixed them up randomly in a bowl, and threw them on a plate.

I am more of a gourmet chef. LOL Took a bunch of doctrines of God mixed them blending them specifically (Not randomly) to give glory to God not seen. It was the kind of food the disciples knew not of. Having no spiritual understand (mixing with faith) in the parables given to them.

It would seem because it is not a sign to support the believers. But clearly the opposite, a sigh against those who believe not .(No faith, no prophecy) You chose the other menu and try and make it into a sign that supports those who will not hear prophecy .

So, would you have us believe that the men who performed signs in the Bible, Paul, Peter and the other of the twelve apostles, Philip, and other saints not mentioned by name, and even the Lord Jesus did not have faith, but that you have faith because you don't do signs? I don't think you'll get anyone to accept that idea.

Sign are for those who rebell. Prophecy for thos e who belive

Its not the Lord who did not have faith as the power of our Faithful Creator to create by believing (exercising or working faith)
Without faith he cannot create (work)

He alone is the one source of faith. Men were attributing the work of Christ faith unseen to men seen(blasphemy) . They would announce; The gods are coming in the likeness of men .To show us they had no faith .Not little but none. The imaginations of our own hearts are not a source of faith as a law of faith. They are called imagined theories. we cannot turn the law of faith into a theory of men .

No philosophes as oral traditions of men .

Paul and Barnabus tore their clothing proclaiming blasphemy.... (attributing the works of God's faith not seen the eternal , to men seen)the temporal

Acts 14:11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.

Acts 14:11 is good example what it means to "stand in the holy place of God", not seen..... 'the abomination that causes desolation,' which is simply blasphemy. A violation of the first commandment...".Have no gods before me in the likeness of men"

 

[garee]

How about another thread on gifts besides tongues?

Tongues are prophecy (the word of God) To prophesy prophecy is declare the word of God the gospel of our salvation . It is a gift that keeps on giving. New prophecy or new revelations after any manner to include tongues (God bringing his word in other languages other that Hebrew) has ceased, because again, new prophecy has ceased .

What we had in part up till the last book. We are lovingly commanded by the last living words inspired in Revelation 22 to not add or subtract from the whole or perfect ) Amen! Amen?

From my experiences the words... prophecy, prophets and prophesy must first be understood as it is written with no new meaning added to it . It seems to be where much confusion comes.

 

[Dino246]

Tongues are prophecy (the word of God) To prophesy prophecy is declare the word of God the gospel of our salvation . It is a gift that keeps on giving. New prophecy or new revelations after any manner to include tongues (God bringing his word in other languages other that Hebrew) has ceased, because again, new prophecy has ceased .

Fallacy: circular reasoning. And, once again, prophecy is clearly distinguished from tongues in 1 Corinthians.

 

[garee]

Fallacy: circular reasoning. And, once again, prophecy is clearly distinguished from tongues in 1 Corinthians.

I think signs are designed for those who rebel by refusing to hear prophecy . Prophesying... prophecy.... which is declaring the will of God is for those who believe God it comes by exercising their new faith that comes from hearing him.

I must of forgot. Where is this difference listed?

 

[Dino246]

I think signs are designed for those who rebel by refusing to hear prophecy . Prophesying... prophecy.... which is declaring the will of God is for those who believe God it comes by exercising their new faith that comes from hearing him.

I must of forgot. Where is this difference listed?

Let's think this through: if tongues are prophecy, as you say, then those who are rebelling against prophecy and seeking tongues then they are seeking prophecy. That is nonsensical.

1 Corinthians 12 and 14 both talk about tongues and prophecy as separate gifts.

12:29-30 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

14:2-3 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

The implication is crystal-clear: tongues and prophecy are not the same thing.

 

[garee]

Let's think this through: if tongues are prophecy, as you say, then those who are rebelling against prophecy and seeking tongues then they are seeking prophecy. That is nonsensical.

The way you presented it, yes...... no sence

No such thing as sign gifts .Signs are designed for those who rebel against the word of God(prophecy) . never to support it

It would seem that you might be a little confused. I said. tongues (God speak king in all the languages of the world mocking the Jew that mocked His prophecy with the oral traditions of the fathers and kings. It is a sign against those who refuse to believe prophecy .

No outward sign for those who do believe God not seen as it is written just a changed of the heart.... as that which God looks to.

For some reason or other those who do seek after a sign needed to verify the Holy Spirit is working They turn the law upside down.
This people in respect to the sign in the verse below are clearly those who refuse hear prophecy. The apostate unbelieving Jews were known for turning things upside down.... not understanding that signs are designed for those who believe not (no faith).

Faith comes by hearing prophecy . Not from hearing God mock them speaking the language of all the nations of the world which before the sign was Hebrew alone. They still refused to hear what the Spirit was saying to the churches as spoke in the language of all the nations each one hearing the gospel in their own tongue as God's understanding freely given to them

In the law (not just a good theory) it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they "not hear" me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a "sign", not to them that believe, (Christians ) but to them that believe not (non Christians having no faith needed to believe ) but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not,(non Christians having no faith needed to believe ) but for them which believe.(Christians ) 1 Corinthians 14:21-22

Those who seek after the oral tradition of men as a law of the father men are not seeking prophecy. They make prophecy to no effect with the oral traditions of the fathers and kings

1 Corinthians 12 and 14 both talk about tongues and prophecy as separate gifts.

I gift of faith given to those who believe prophecy.

 

[notuptome]

Excuse me please do not comment on my response with an insult. Your opinion provided no context to what they other gentlemen and I were speaking about. Please troll another. Your tactics are old. I will not for one stand for it any longer. Thank you

I could wish you a good day and you would find an insult in the post.

The bible never gets old.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

The way you presented it, yes...... no sence

No such thing as sign gifts .Signs are designed for those who rebel against the word of God(prophecy) . never to support it

It would seem that you might be a little confused. I said. tongues (God speak king in all the languages of the world mocking the Jew that mocked His prophecy with the oral traditions of the fathers and kings. It is a sign against those who refuse to believe prophecy .

No outward sign for those who do believe God not seen as it is written just a changed of the heart.... as that which God looks to.

For some reason or other those who do seek after a sign needed to verify the Holy Spirit is working They turn the law upside down.
This people in respect to the sign in the verse below are clearly those who refuse hear prophecy. The apostate unbelieving Jews were known for turning things upside down.... not understanding that signs are designed for those who believe not (no faith).

Faith comes by hearing prophecy . Not from hearing God mock them speaking the language of all the nations of the world which before the sign was Hebrew alone. They still refused to hear what the Spirit was saying to the churches as spoke in the language of all the nations each one hearing the gospel in their own tongue as God's understanding freely given to them

In the law (not just a good theory) it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they "not hear" me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a "sign", not to them that believe, (Christians ) but to them that believe not (non Christians having no faith needed to believe ) but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not,(non Christians having no faith needed to believe ) but for them which believe.(Christians ) 1 Corinthians 14:21-22

Those who seek after the oral tradition of men as a law of the father men are not seeking prophecy. They make prophecy to no effect with the oral traditions of the fathers and kings

I gift of faith given to those who believe prophecy.

First, it's a little disingenuous to ask, "I must of forgot. Where is this difference listed?" and when I show you, you disregard it.

1 Corinthians 12:4 says, "There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them."

Verses 7 to 11 say, "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines."

The gift of faith is separate from tongues, separate from prophecy, separate from the others. Those who are filled with the Holy Spirit and gifted by Him are not seeking "after the oral tradition of men as a law of the father men are (sic) not seeking prophecy".

The Holy Spirit gives the gifts "just as He determines" (capitalization added). Tongues, faith, and prophecy are among the gifts, and are distinguished by the Holy Spirit through Paul's written words.

Tongues is not prophecy. Neither is a bad thing. They aren't given to those who are "seeking signs" but to those whom the Spirit wills.

You can write, "No such thing as sign gifts" but until you support it with Scripture and show clearly how the gifts listed in 1 Corinthians are evidence of God's displeasure on those "seeking a sign", your position is indefensible.

 

[CS1]

I could wish you a good day and you would find an insult in the post.

The bible never gets old.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

if you can't see it, then it is best you do not address me as you and I do not agree on this topic. Ok

 

[CS1]

Mute point. Acts 2 tongues ended.

Most fail to attribute true tongues to multi lingual persons.

Just ill advised behavior desperately seeking justification.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

If you can not see your words here are insulting and not one Bible verse in your comment as you allude to "The Bible never gets old " you are not the bible. Drop it do not respond to me as i have asked you not to do. Last time .
thank you.

 

[garee]

First, it's a little disingenuous to ask, "I must of forgot. Where is this difference listed?" and when I show you, you disregard it.

1 Corinthians 12:4 says, "There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them."

I don't think I said there are not different gifts distributed by one Spirit of faith, Christ's,. as a work of His faith .

What I am saying is there is no such thing as a "sign gift" .(Charismaticism)

Signs are designed for those who rebel. Those having "no faith" that comes from hearing God .But rather trust in the oral traditions of the fathers and kings.

Prophecy is for those who believe God. No outward sign but rather a contrite heart that God looks upon.

Verses 7 to 11 say, "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines."

Again nothing about a "sign gift" as some sort of evidence of something. All of the work is attributed to God not seen (the same Spirit ). The gift is of God not after man seen.

Tongues, God brining new prophecy in all the languages of the world is before he finished the last book. The sign to those who rebel today is they go above that which is written.

Adding oral tradition like make a noise and it is proof a person has the Holy Spirit in not a biblical doctrine.

 

[garee]

the gift of faith is separate from tongues, separate from prophecy, separate from the others. Those who are filled with the Holy Spirit and gifted by Him are not seeking "after the oral tradition of men as a law of the father men are (sic) not seeking prophecy".

The gift of faith (not of ourselves ) is that we can hear prophecy the word of God as His words give us ear to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches. Previously having no faith. None, zero not a little.

God speaks all the languages of the world.

Those who do not have the gift of faith seek after the oral traditions of men . Like with the tongues doctrine . The sign is against them that believe not prophecy.

They simply turn it upside down and make it a sign for believers inspired from earth and therefore take away the understanding of faith (Christ's)

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

We understand by a work of His faith working in us to both will and do His good pleasure. He promises he will not forget the good works we offer towards his name. There is no outward sign as evidence it is the Holy Spirit. no need for those who walk by faith... our living abiding hope .

It is an evil generation, natural unconverted man that does require a sign before they will believe. (exercise faith)

They made a mockery of Christ as if he was a circus seal .

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Christ rebuked them for requiring a sign before they would exercise faith. (walking by sight)

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, "not to them that" believe, but to them that believe not: but "prophesying" serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.( God)

 

[Dino246]

I don't think I said there are not different gifts distributed by one Spirit of faith, Christ's,. as a work of His faith .

What I am saying is there is no such thing as a "sign gift" .(Charismaticism)

Signs are designed for those who rebel. Those having "no faith" that comes from hearing God .But rather trust in the oral traditions of the fathers and kings.

Prophecy is for those who believe God. No outward sign but rather a contrite heart that God looks upon.

Sometimes I wonder if you and I are reading the same Bible. 1 Corinthians 14 makes it clear that prophecy by the Holy Spirit is an "outward" gift, not merely in the heart. Verse 22 calls prophecy a sign for believers. It baffles me how you can read that and then claim that there are no "sign gifts". Prophecy and tongues are gifts. They are for signs. Therefore they are sign gifts. Case closed!

Again nothing about a "sign gift" as some sort of evidence of something. All of the work is attributed to God not seen (the same Spirit ). The gift is of God not after man seen.

Agreed. I haven't argued that either tongues or prophecy are evidence of anything. Perhaps some Christians hold that belief; I don't.

Tongues, God brining new prophecy in all the languages of the world is before he finished the last book.

Tongues is not prophecy. We've been over that a dozen times already. "Before he finished the last book" is an interpretation of 1 Cor 13:8 with which I don't agree.

The gift of faith (not of ourselves ) is that we can hear prophecy the word of God as His words give us ear to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches. Previously having no faith. None, zero not a little.

That is not in Scripture.

Those who do not have the gift of faith seek after the oral traditions of men . Like with the tongues doctrine . The sign is against them that believe not prophecy.

That is not in Scripture either. 1 Cor 14:22 says that tongues are for a sign for unbelievers. Tongues are not a sign "against them". The sign is given that they may be convicted and repent.

They simply turn it upside down and make it a sign for believers inspired from earth and therefore take away the understanding of faith (Christ's)

Incorrect. Some people have misinterpreted the scriptural passages about tongues and turned it into a "proof" for the filling of the Holy Spirit. Scripture doesn't support that interpretation. However, it is one done by misled Christians, not unbelievers.

It is an evil generation, natural unconverted man that does require a sign before they will believe. (exercise faith)

They made a mockery of Christ as if he was a circus seal .

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Christ rebuked them for requiring a sign before they would exercise faith. (walking by sight)

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

These verses talk about people who reject Christ. They are not about people who have believed on Him for salvation.

It really is worthwhile to consider the context of each verse. It was the unbelieving Pharisees who demanded a sign from Jesus. The Corinthians to whom Paul wrote were zealous believers in Christ who needed guidance. It is incorrect to take the admonishment from the one situation and apply it to the other.

 

[Deade]

Sometimes I wonder if you and I are reading the same Bible. 1 Corinthians 14 makes it clear that prophecy by the Holy Spirit is an "outward" gift, not merely in the heart. Verse 22 calls prophecy a sign for believers. It baffles me how you can read that and then claim that there are no "sign gifts". Prophecy and tongues are gifts. They are for signs. Therefore they are sign gifts. Case closed!

partial...

There is no sense trying to reason with garee as he obviously has a chip on his shoulder about this speaking in tongues. Well garee, I am sorry if someone in you past tried to force you into something that made you so hostile. You are trying to twist every other scripture into something to use against tongues. Just leave him be Dino, you are not going to put out this fire he has against Pentecostals.

 

[presidente]

Garee,

You are confused about this. Tongues is for believers. 'Divers tongues' is listed among the gifts that are given 'to profit withal.' In I Corinthians 14, if speaking in tongues is interpreted, we see that it edifies others. Paul wrote that tongues are a sign, not for them that believe, but for them that believe not. So tongues are for believers, but they are a sign for unbelievers.

Doing miracles does not make on an unbeliever. Seeing miracles or appreciating miracles does not make one an unbeliever. Paul even used miracles as part of a theological argument in Galatians 3:5 "He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "

The apostles doing miracles does not prove that they lacked faith. In fact, when Peter believed, he could walk on water. When he doubted, he sank.

Notice that. Not believing in God to work miracles was a reflection of his doubt and little faith. It was not evidence of spiritual superiority.

 

[Noose]

Garee,

You are confused about this. Tongues is for believers. 'Divers tongues' is listed among the gifts that are given 'to profit withal.' In I Corinthians 14, if speaking in tongues is interpreted, we see that it edifies others. Paul wrote that tongues are a sign, not for them that believe, but for them that believe not. So tongues are for believers, but they are a sign for unbelievers.

Doing miracles does not make on an unbeliever. Seeing miracles or appreciating miracles does not make one an unbeliever. Paul even used miracles as part of a theological argument in Galatians 3:5 "He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "

The apostles doing miracles does not prove that they lacked faith. In fact, when Peter believed, he could walk on water. When he doubted, he sank.

Notice that. Not believing in God to work miracles was a reflection of his doubt and little faith. It was not evidence of spiritual superiority.

If it is a sign for unbelievers, why is it done in closets, in churches, only certain times on Sundays (scheduled times) and funny thing is that it always follows a certain format for each person; i mean, if a person uses Bs and Ks in their tongue, it will always be Bs and Ks and if another uses Zs and Rs, it will always be that, week in and week out clearly showing that there's no particular message in it but it something that is well memorized.

Q. How is it a sign for unbelievers if unbelievers don't understand what is being said?

 

[presidente]

If it is a sign for unbelievers, why is it done in closets, in churches, only certain times on Sundays (scheduled times) and funny thing is that it always follows a certain format for each person; i mean, if a person uses Bs and Ks in their tongue, it will always be Bs and Ks and if another uses Zs and Rs, it will always be that, week in and week out clearly showing that there's no particular message in it but it something that is well memorized.

Q. How is it a sign for unbelievers if unbelievers don't understand what is being said?

The sign for unbelievers has to do with 'and yet for all that, they will not hear Me.' The example in the passage is the unlearned or unbeliever coming in and saying 'ye are mad.' There is a little fulfillment of the Isaiah prophesy he quotes when this happens.

As far as the sounds of speaking in tongues go, there is a lot of variety. I have heard speaking in tongues that sounds to me like a real languages. I've got a degree in Linguistics. I studied a bunch of languages in college and gained fluency in one living overseas. I've spent a lot of my life overseas. I've heard speaking in tongues overseas where I did not know if the individual was praying normally in a regional language as opposed to the national language I knew, or if the individual was speaking in tongues until the interpretation was given.

There is also a supernatural character to interpretation of tongues if it is genuine. I know of three people, at least, who have said that they have gotten the interpretation for a tongue and someone else gave it before they spoke it out and it was the same thing. That happens with prophecies, too. I've experienced getting words of knowledge about people, only to hear someone else prophesy the details I've gotten as a part of the prophecy. Of course, there are prophecies that tell details about an individual's life the speaker could not know by natural means. And someone may go to one location and get a prophecy, and go elswhere and be told some of the same things in another prophecy. I've had that happen to me and I have seen that with someone else.

 

[presidente]

Noose,

One type of sign is a fulfilled prophecy. There are a number of these in the Old Testament. When someone speaks in tongues and unbelievers reject it as occured in Paul's example in I Corinthians 14, 'and yet for all that, they will not hear Me' is fulfilled in a way.