REVELATION 4-7 ONE RAPTURE OR TWO RAPTURES

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Wow. Even in eternity the distinction remains?
This makes little sense.

A jew gets saved today, WHICH PART does he get in eternity? Is he "adorned as the bride of Christ" or "does he get the land as his inheritance as the wife of God"? Since he would be both a "jew" and part of the "church"

If a Jew gets saved today, he is in the 'church age'--he becomes a member of the church and will be raptured along with the rest of the bride. Look at Paul. He was proud of his heritage ... a Hebrew of Hebrews ... but then He got saved, and from then on he was a 'new creature in Christ'. He was now a saint of God.

Just like all born again believers. We were once a son of Adam, now we are a son of God.

 

[iamsoandso]

Thanks brother Nehemiah, I always enjoy your posts.

They were literal when they wanted to be. But in many instances they werent.
In the verses that teach there is only one people of God, the Church, made up of both jew and gentile, the literalism isnt present, but rather its spiritualized into: "Well yeah thats now, but after the rapture, we go back to Israel" even though there is NO VERSE that says the church "ends" and we return to Israel, but there is scripture that its forever. There is also scriptures from the OT ABOUT Israel, that are applied to the CHURCH. Proving one people of God! I dare anyone to prove me wrong there. Romans 9:25 Paul is quoting from Hosea, who is speaking about Israel, yet PAUL applies it to the CHURCH, gentile church.

In the book of Revelation literalism is very present, except for the churches, which are spiritualized into eras within church history, NO BASIS in the text for that.
I believe this is done to make Revelation 3:10 into a rapture proof-text, when what LITERALLY this is teaching is that the church of Philadelphia, that literal church to whom the letter was sent during the 1st/2nd century, would be spared from tribulation.
Imagine being in the church of Philadelphia, getting some mail from John, and nothing in it is for you, but to some church era centuries from now.

Same goes for many other things, but I believe they were sincere in their attempts, nonetheless. I dont believe Darby invented the pre-trib rapture, many puritans had pontificated on it before that. Pseudo-Ephraim is from the 400s and it mentions a pre-tribulation rapture (This is the earliest mention of it). That argument that Darby invented the rapture is so played out, and people need to stop using it, its not TRUE. There is a biblical case to be deduced for the pre-trib rapture. I also believe there are MANY MANY good dispensational preachers, Chuck Missler being one I enjoy.

Also im not a jew-hater (Bro Nehemiah I KNOW you didnt accuse me of this), but this has been brought up like twice now, by different people so I think this would be a good place to state I have JEWISH ANCESTRY, and I had family in the holocaust. Im not anti-jew, im anti-JUDAISM, there is a difference! I have family deep into judaizing to this day!

Shalom Aleichem,,,I myself have always been drawn to these types of discussions because of my sir name,Sangrejoven,Jungbluth ,Naardam(Spanish,Dutch,Hebrew depending which family member you speak to,lol) but I did not know this until others in my family researched it(always thought I was Dutch,lol) I was always Christian and my parents/grandparents also. I notice in using the word "Jewish" many see it meaning "Jewish faith" so I refrain from it unless necessary to avoid confusion,lol

 

[Hevosmies]

I notice in using the word "Jewish" many see it meaning "Jewish faith" so I refrain from it unless necessary to avoid confusion,lol

Precisely why I also refrain from it. I try to avoid typing in hebrew or bringing in unchristian rabbi's commentaries and things as well, because I dont want to identify as a "jew". I just want to be a christian. Thats not to say im not proud of my family roots or whatever, but I prefer to just not highlight it. It can get awkward some times when people step back and say "BLESS YOU BLESS YOU BLESS YOU". Yes this has happened, I go to a pentecostal church, those guys love them some jews

 

[pottersclay]

At the end (in eternity) there will be three groups. The Jew, The Nations, and the Church. They are distinct . . . and the children of Israel will receive the land as their inheritance as the wife of God, the Nations will visit Jerusalem on an annual basis to bring gifts and enjoy the fruits of the tree, and the church will be adorned as the bride of Christ.

There will be no lost people.

Agreed😁

Even though our roots are from judisim we are new creatures in Christ Jesus.

In the time of the millennial the Jews will sacrifice as a reminder of there ways of old. As with the Sabbaths and festivals they practice today...as a reminder also.

There are those who survive the tribulation but have not made a choice of whom they will serve. That is why Satan is loosed again to tempt away those who have not given there hearts to the Lord.

Also the millennial is the time that God's promise to restore the earth happens right before our eyes.
Rest assured if it takes 1000 yrs it is like Jesus said it would be ....that the destruction is like never before seen. Which Trump's the 70 A.d. myth.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

And remember that during that 1,000 years millions of babies will be born and many of them will reject the Gospel even then . . . some of them will be cast into hell while alive by Jesus Christ Himself, but multitudes of them will be 'secretly defiant' of the rules of the Kingdom. These are they which will be gathered together unto Satan in the final conflict. They will be melted on the spot.

 

[iamsoandso]

Precisely why I also refrain from it. I try to avoid typing in hebrew or bringing in unchristian rabbi's commentaries and things as well, because I dont want to identify as a "jew". I just want to be a christian. Thats not to say im not proud of my family roots or whatever, but I prefer to just not highlight it. It can get awkward some times when people step back and say "BLESS YOU BLESS YOU BLESS YOU". Yes this has happened, I go to a pentecostal church, those guys love them some jews

I agree, In John 8:33 they identified themselves as Abraham's seed but then said that they were never in bondage(Jesus doesn't ask them about Egypt,Babylon ect.) So they could have descended from Abraham through Ishmael,Esau,Midian,Jokshan ect. and still had their father Abraham and not have ever been in bondage. I grew up in a Church of Christ and then at about 18 began to attend Pentecostal Churches afterwards. My father was Southern Baptist, my mother was Church of Christ...but that was in the cowboy days,lol

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

It is interesting that you suggest that those in the audience might have been Islamic, but vs. 31 does say that they were Jews.

It also says that they were "Jews which believed on him,' but apparently their belief was limited to His powers and miraculous performances in their seeing because he later tells them they they are of their father, the devil.

At any rate, belief in the pre-church days was based on 'continuing in the word' which included the sacrifices and offerings and Jewish traditions. There was no 'sealing' of the Holy Spirit.

 

[iamsoandso]

It is interesting that you suggest that those in the audience might have been Islamic, but vs. 31 does say that they were Jews.

It also says that they were "Jews which believed on him,' but apparently their belief was limited to His powers and miraculous performances in their seeing because he later tells them they they are of their father, the devil.

At any rate, belief in the pre-church days was based on 'continuing in the word' which included the sacrifices and offerings and Jewish traditions. There was no 'sealing' of the Holy Spirit.

What we refer to as Islamic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran did not come about until much later in time. Esau did not go into Egypt as captives (Deuteronomy 2:5) but afterwards were forced into conversion https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/edom

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

I stand corrected . . . yet, Esau's descendants did not have relations with the children of Sarah. At least that is what I surmise from Galatians.

"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free" (Galatians 4:28-31).

Realizing that this passage is an allegory, yet it is based on historical events.

 

[iamsoandso]

The one article is long so if you go down to "SECOND TEMPLE TIMES" it explains the forced conversion...

 

[iamsoandso]

I stand corrected . . . yet, Esau's descendants did not have relations with the children of Sarah. At least that is what I surmise from Galatians.

"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free" (Galatians 4:28-31).

Realizing that this passage is an allegory, yet it is based on historical events.

The point is this,,,Abraham,Issac,(Jacob/Israel) went into the captivity in Egypt. They eat bitter herbs and spices to remember the Passover in Egypt,,,Esau was not there and did not come out in the exodus and receive the Law nor any of the others I mentioned but Jacob/Israel.

 

[Hevosmies]

At any rate, belief in the pre-church days was based on 'continuing in the word'

But it still is in the church days.

Paul says clearly here:

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Same thing in 1 cor 15:1-4 "if ye keep in memory"

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

But it still is in the church days.

Paul says clearly here:

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Same thing in 1 cor 15:1-4 "if ye keep in memory"

"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister" (Colossians 1:21-23).

Context shows that this is not an issue of 'enduring to the end' but rather of how we will be seen at the Judgment seat of Christ as faithful stewards or defeated by the world.

Paul speaks of precious rewards . . . and he also speaks of wood, hay and stubble . . . yet we would be saved, yet so as by fire.

Paul also said that we only win the 'prize' if we stay in the race -- same thing.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

But it still is in the church days.

Paul says clearly here:

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Same thing in 1 cor 15:1-4 "if ye keep in memory"

By the way, why do folks only 'quote' half of a sentence when the rest of the thought is necessary to understand the point? Isn't that a tad bit dishonest?

 

[Nehemiah6]

By the way, why do folks only 'quote' half of a sentence when the rest of the thought is necessary to understand the point? Isn't that a tad bit dishonest?

Not necessarily. It depends on what point is being made. However, if the quote is misrepresented, that's another matter.

 

[Nehemiah6]

None of those verses prove me wrong? None of them deny israel joining the church...

You should understand from those Scriptures that God has an eternal plan and purpose for the Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body) whose eternal home is the New Jerusalem, and He also has a plan and purpose for Israel (the 12 tribes) on earth in the land of Israel. So Israel does NOT join the Church, and those verse never once mention the Church, but they mention Jacob and Israel over and over again.

If you have not studied the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants carefully, you should do so. There is no Replacement Theology in the Bible.

 

[tanakh]

While there is no question that modern Israel is primarily secular, that does not in way minimize the important of THE LAND OF ISRAEL and JERUSALEM. We also need to be careful that Christians do not become Jew-haters just because the Jews in general reject Christ. No doubt many will welcome the Antichrist as their Messiah, and pay for it.

But regardless of what we see today, everything will change AFTER the second coming of Christ. The Bible is chock full of prophecies regarding redeemed and restored Israel, and the eternal Kingdom of God on earth, when Christ is King over Israel and King of kings and Lord of lords over the nations of the earth.

Also, it is high time that Christians stopped throwing mud at Darby, Scofield, Lindsey, and all other Dispensationalists (including Chafer, Walvoord, Ryrie, etc.) All they have tried to do is understand the Bible in its plain literal sense, rather that allegorize, spiritualize, or fantasize the Scriptures.

Did Darby (19th century) invent the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture? Even if Darby had never existed, we would have the words of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself BEFORE His crucifixion (30 AD):

JOHN 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This verse is always quoted by pre tribulation rapturists. The fact that there will be a rapture is not in dispute. The timing of it is
There is no indication in this of when the rapture actually happens. All the Apostles died so they are with Christ now not waiting somewhere on earth to be raptured so at their time of death Christ did come again for them and receive them. The same applies to
anyone who dies in Christ prior to his actual return unless you believe in Soul Sleep.

 

[Hevosmies]

I was just looking at some videos on youtube and there is MASSIVE fish deaths all over the world. Im sure many of you are aware of this. Do you believe this is a "prelude" or partial fulfilling of:

Revelation 8:9 a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

 

[iamsoandso]

I was just looking at some videos on youtube and there is MASSIVE fish deaths all over the world. Im sure many of you are aware of this. Do you believe this is a "prelude" or partial fulfilling of:

Revelation 8:9 a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

?,,,wouldn't the man of sin and his image need to come first and the people to have received his mark before Gods wrath is sent?

 

[Hevosmies]

?,,,wouldn't the man of sin and his image need to come first and the people to have received his mark before Gods wrath is sent?

I understand all that. But its undeniable that theere is massive fish-deaths occuring world wide.

So what does it connect to? Is this some kind of "partial fulfillment" of it? Or like a "appetizer" before the real deal hits?