Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

[ForestGreenCook]

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

My belief in Jesus Christ lead to my justification. One cannot believe in Jesus Christ and His gospel without hearing the gospel. Hearing comes first, believing second, justification next.

You build your whole foundation of theology on one verse taken out of context.

Justification comes first (Jesus justified [made us just] us on the cross), regeneration comes second, hearing comes third, believing comes fourth.

 

[Hevosmies]

It doesn’t necessarily have to be addressed to you of course, anybody can reply as far as I’m concerned that’s the beauty of it all. Sure one can repent and come to Christ; but the moment we think that I repented and I came to Christ on my own will would be going down the wrong path in that they themselves are taking the credit or part of the credit when all reality all the credit goes to God and only God.

I respectfully disagree. Just because you do something doesn't mean you are taking credit. God asks us to do all kinds of things for Him. When God used Moses to split the Red sea, he was asked to stretch his hand and he did. Could Moses now go and boast "and I stretched my hand, I DID IT! MY OBEDIENCE SPLIT THE RED SEA!" No of course not, that would be ridicilous and unbiblical.

 

[Grandpa]

Arminianism = milk.

Calvinism = meat.


When you were a babe you thought a certain way, you believed a certain way.

When you grew you put away the childish things. You started to understand the Truth.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

My belief in Jesus Christ lead to my justification. One cannot believe in Jesus Christ and His gospel without hearing the gospel. Hearing comes first, believing second, justification next.

You build your whole foundation of theology on one verse taken out of context.

We believe in Jesus Christ,in that, we believe that he justified us by his faithfulness in going to the cross. It was Jesus's faith that saved us not our faith. You were made just by Jesus on the cross. How could your hearing and believing come before that?

 

[John146]

Justification comes first (Jesus justified [made us just] us on the cross), regeneration comes second, hearing comes third, believing comes fourth.

Maybe in your mind, but not according to Scripture. Did you read Galatians 2:16? Even we have believed in Jesus Christ THAT we might be justified by the faith of Christ and not the works of the law.

Why believe in Jesus Christ? To be justified by His faith. Belief comes first. You twist Scripture to conform it to your theology.

 

[trofimus]

Maybe in your mind, but not according to Scripture. Did you read Galatians 2:16? Even we have believed in Jesus Christ THAT we might be justified by the faith of Christ and not the works of the law.

Why believe in Jesus Christ? To be justified by His faith. Belief comes first. You twist Scripture to conform it to your theology.

While you are talking about personal justification by faith, I think he meant the historical justification made by Christ's death on the cross, which really precedes our (personal) faith in the message about His death.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Maybe in your mind, but not according to Scripture. Did you read Galatians 2:16? Even we have believed in Jesus Christ THAT we might be justified by the faith of Christ and not the works of the law.

Why believe in Jesus Christ? To be justified by His faith. Belief comes first. You twist Scripture to conform it to your theology.

How can belief come before justification, when justification came on the cross, and you were not born yet to believe?

 

[John146]

How can belief come before justification, when justification came on the cross, and you were not born yet to believe?

Jesus justifies the believer through the cross. One must believe the gospel of Jesus Christ to be justified. Read Galatians 2:16 again, and again, and again.

 

[RDK]

Individuals are not predestined. The church was predestined. Anyone can become a member of the church by choosing to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.


Universalism (which I gather is what you believe) is not true. People make their choice in this life. Once this life is over, there will be no second chance to "get it right".

Heb 9:
27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Men are predestined when they follow prophesy to the letter. Jesus also followed prophesy when he was sold out by Judas.. The devil also was predestined to enter Judas to fulfil that prophesy. These types of facts can't be ignored.

 

[RDK]

I'm giving Danny the benefit of the doubt, and asking a question. He re-interpreted John 3:16 to read "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so THE ELECT who believe in Him [color emphasis mine] shall not perish but have ever lasting life". But obviously, by this, then, there are some of THE ELECT who DON'T believe in Him yet, so what happens to them if they don't ever believe? Or is it that they believe and don't know it? Also, what happens to people who are NOT the elect, but believe anyway? See, it makes no sense, because WE choose what we believe. It's a catch 22.

your interpretation is confusion. This debate could not have ever happen unless the scriptures clearly stated that God knew the future of anything. The prophesies of mankind should be proof enough that means choices are foreordained.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Jesus justifies the believer through the cross. One must believe the gospel of Jesus Christ to be justified. Read Galatians 2:16 again, and again, and again.

Gal 2:16 - Even we have believed in Jesus Christ (in the fact that it was his faith that justified us). Our faith can justify us pertaining to situations in this life, but it is Jesus's faith that justifies us eternally. If you interpret that differently, tell me how?

 

[Endoscopy]

You'll get a lot about Calvinism v Arminianisn in other threads.

I believe the bible teaches neither Calvinism nor Arminianisn.

For e.g... salvation that someone does call out for out of free will.. but that it can't be undone.

My impression of Calvinism is that someone does not pray or call out for salvation. They are saved b4 they believe.

Arminianism.. My impression is that salvation can be undone in this teaching.

So yea.. bible teaches neither.

I have studied this issue. It is called the quinquarticular controversy. Each side has documents defending their position about the 5 points with plenty of scripture references.

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/

The early elders created the creeds. They define 3 things.
1. What a Christian must believe.
2. Any disagreements outside of them is to agree to disagree.
3. Anything contrary to them is heresy.

At that time there were many disagreements. Today there are many gospel preaching denominations that disagree with each other over these differences. Since these differences are not in the creeds we must agree to disagree. Calvinism and Armenianism fall into this category. I wish it was clear cut but it is not!!

 

[Endoscopy]

your interpretation is confusion. This debate could not have ever happen unless the scriptures clearly stated that God knew the future of anything. The prophesies of mankind should be proof enough that means choices are foreordained.

The Bible states God knew the end from the begining. The USA was a Christian country when founded. Today it is a secular country. As a result God has rejected the USA. In the Bible when an eclipse crossed a country it was condemned by God. The US was crossed recently by an eclipse crossing the country east to west. In 2024 another eclipse will cross the country diagonally from northeast to southwest crossing 7 cities named Salem and drawing an X on the country. .

This means God knew the end from the begining and foresaw what the US would do. The awesome power and foreknowledge of God is proven by at creation setting in motion these eclipses.

 

[Endoscopy]

We believe in Jesus Christ,in that, we believe that he justified us by his faithfulness in going to the cross. It was Jesus's faith that saved us not our faith. You were made just by Jesus on the cross. How could your hearing and believing come before that?

You are delving into the Calvinism Armenianism difference. Calvinism believes God has to touch us to make us believe while Armenianism believes we can make that decision ourselves. There is a verse in the KJV that states the carnal mind is enmity against God.

Is Revelation hard for you to understand? Confused by the symbolism? Do the four horsemen have anything to do with Islam? Where is Babylon? What is the mark of the beast? Gain a better understanding of what John saw. Click one of the links below and awaken your knowledge about the book of Revelation.

Ebook on Amazon

https://www.amazon.com/Awakening-Re...revelation&dpPl=1&dpID=41FXLtG62LL&ref=plSrch



Paperback on LULU


http://www.lulu.com/shop/joseph-dickson/the-awakening-of-revelation/paperback/product-23764897.html

Over the centuries 4 different Biblical views of eschatology have been created.

Here are 4 different links to the 4 theological Biblical views of eschatology.

This is because Daniel and Revelation are written in symbolic language. Daniel plainly states it is closed until the end times. Revelation is written the same way so it too is closed.

https://www.exploregod.com/biblical-prophecy-four-views-of-the-end-times

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

http://www.christianciv.com/eschatology_bs_Sect1.htm

http://executableoutlines.com/end/end_01.htm

 

[justpassinthrough]

Yes, but the sheep, when he was lost from the shepherd was still a sheep (child of God). Just like the prodigal son, who was always his father's son, even though he left for awhile. this is why, when the words, repent, confess, accept, believe etc. is used in a scripture, it is always referring to a disobedient child of God. The people that Christ died for were justified (made just) on the cross. Even when we turn away from God and sin, we are still justified for eternal salvation.

Brother, the word lost can not be ignored, redefined or explained away.


Please take heed to the words of Christ. (In red)


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


All one hundred sheep belong to the shepherd. One goes astray be cause he wanders away and becomes lost.

• having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them

Lost is defined by the Lord as a sinner in need of repentance.

• likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents

The ninety nine are described as “just persons” who need no repentance.

• than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The prodigal son, also is described as lost and dead to the father.


It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ” Luke 15:32




Lost = separated from God; unreconciled to God, a sinner in need of repentance, spiritually dead to God


Found = reconciled to God; justified, spiritually alive to God.



JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

The gospel tells us how that we were saved eternally, but the gospel is not the cause of our eternal salvation. In Romans 1:16 and John 3:16, The word "believes" is present tense, not future tense, as you are using it, as, "everyone who will believe". The "world" in John 3:16, is the world of believers, and not the whole world. The word in the KJV is "believeth".

Yes I agree, believe must be present tense in order to continue to save.

• by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2



JPT

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Brother, the word lost can not be ignored, redefined or explained away.


Please take heed to the words of Christ. (In red)


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


All one hundred sheep belong to the shepherd. One goes astray be cause he wanders away and becomes lost.

• having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them

Lost is defined by the Lord as a sinner in need of repentance.

• likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents

The ninety nine are described as “just persons” who need no repentance.

• than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The prodigal son, also is described as lost and dead to the father.


It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ” Luke 15:32




Lost = separated from God; unreconciled to God, a sinner in need of repentance, spiritually dead to God


Found = reconciled to God; justified, spiritually alive to God.



JPT

Death, according to the Greek is a separation, literally or figuratively, When the regenerated child of God loses his battle with his fleshly nature, as Paul explains in Galatians, and sins, he is separated ( spiritually dead) from a fellowship with God until he repents. The natural man as described in 1 Cor2:14, cannot repent to a spiritual law that he cannot discern.

 

[John146]

Gal 2:16 - Even we have believed in Jesus Christ (in the fact that it was his faith that justified us). Our faith can justify us pertaining to situations in this life, but it is Jesus's faith that justifies us eternally. If you interpret that differently, tell me how?

Let's go through the verse again, shall we?

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ (why did we believe in Jesus Christ?), that we might be justified by the faith of Christ (we believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by Him and not by the works of the law. The works of the law has to do with our individual faith and our ability to live by them. Christ ended the law for righteousness), and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Believing in Jesus Christ, clearly precedes our justification.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes I agree, believe must be present tense in order to continue to save.

• by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2



JPT

Salvation, saved, save, according to Greek is "a deliverance". Holding to the gospel can deliver you as you live here on earth, but believing the gospel is not the cause of your eternal salvation, if so, it would be eternal salvation because of man's actions and not by God's grace.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Death, according to the Greek is a separation, literally or figuratively, When the regenerated child of God loses his battle with his fleshly nature, as Paul explains in Galatians, and sins, he is separated ( spiritually dead) from a fellowship with God until he repents. The natural man as described in 1 Cor2:14, cannot repent to a spiritual law that he cannot discern.

Brother,

Do the lost need salvation?



JLB