Predestination or free wiil.

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eternally-gratefull said:
Predestination has EVERYTHING to do with salvation.

We are predestined to be conformed to his image.

We are predestined in christ to be holy and without blame

Everyone he predestined he called. He justified, and he will glorify. (No and ifs or buts, no maybes, he WILL

We were predestined to be adopted as sons

We who are predestined wil obtain and inheritance (once our predestined state becomes active through faith in Christ
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Predestination is a doctrine given to those already saved. Those who are in Christ will one day be conformed to His image. Those who are in Christ will one day be holy and without blame before Him. Those who are in Christ will receive the redemption, the adoption of sons. Those who are in Christ will obtain an inheritance.

No one is predestined before they are saved. Salvation comes first. One must be placed in Christ to receive those spiritual blessings in heavenly places.
 
trofimus said:
By predeterming the amount and direction of light, you can very precisely create the amount of darkness you think is needed. You are not the author of the darkness, though.
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Very philosophical answer. But I like it.

You know what trofimus at the end of the day, iron sharpens iron. You are a stand up guy. I like you
 
JaumeJ said:
There is a good song, "Whsoever Willo to the Lord May Come." I believe this.

Many confuse the fact that all who are saved are indeed foreknown by God with predestination.

When we come to God for Salvation, He hears us, and we are then foreknown from this age.

When my heart was broken and dI prayed to "You Are Who You Are," He answered me and drew me to Jesus Christ, Yeshua.
Whosoever will to the Lord may come, amen.
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We are foreknown by God before we are born by natural birth into this world.
 
Nehemiah6 said:
Of course "without the help of man".

But NOT "without the obedience to Gospel". That's your blind spot, since God is not the one who obeys the Gospel.
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If you are preaching eternal salvation because of your obedience to the gospel, then you are preaching eternal salvation by the works of man.
 
Hevosmies said:
Could you refute my point in post #329
WHy does God command repentance, obedience, to humble ourselves, if we have no ability to do so? Isnt that what the wicked servants of Pharaoh did in the Exodus verses I quoted? Command bricks without giving straw!
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I personally think that when God predetermines the outcome, He "must" also predetermine the chain of causes that leads to the outcome.

Commands in the Bible are items in the chain.

If you are predetermined to swim in the sea, you are also predetermined to make a trip there. If you are predetermined to repent, you are also predetermined to hear the command to repent.
 
trofimus said:
Lol, thanks.
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Can you answer me this:

God can regenerate everyone, if He wanted to? Right?
God says He wants all to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. 1 tim 2:1-4 so WHY isnt everyone saved? God could just give the gift of repentance to everyone.
 
Hevosmies said:
Can you answer me this:

God can regenerate everyone, if He wanted to? Right?
God says He wants all to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. 1 tim 2:1-4 so WHY isnt everyone saved? God could just give the gift of repentance to everyone.
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I cannot answer this specifically, because I do not have all the data God has.

I can answer this only generally - It is (for some reasons I have no data about) better in the way it is. Therefore even though God in His nature wants all to be saved, there are other reasons that make this world to be the best possible world.

Similarly, father of the family wants by his nature to have a ferrari, but its best for the needs of the family to have a more family friendly car.

Bear with me, English is not my first language so I have to express my thoughts in a primitive manner.
 
Hevosmies said:
Did you know that you can never win a debate with a calvinist by saying God foreknows and then predestines according to that?
The reason is that they will drown you in the greek word proginosko which is an active verb, not a passive knowing. Its like preordaining almost.
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Does Gods knowledge stop? Hid knowledge of all things has been active before time, Still active today and will be active forever more..


So they can TRY to drown a they want. Will ot help
 
John146 said:
Predestination is a doctrine given to those already saved. Those who are in Christ will one day be conformed to His image. Those who are in Christ will one day be holy and without blame before Him. Those who are in Christ will receive the redemption, the adoption of sons. Those who are in Christ will obtain an inheritance.

No one is predestined before they are saved. Salvation comes first. One must be placed in Christ to receive those spiritual blessings in heavenly places.
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Sorry, Read what I posted. You can not read those passages and continue in with what you are preaching.
You just saying so does not make it true
 
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Hevosmies said:
This is one of those debates that from the predestination point of view is meaningless. Why? Because God has simply predestined me to believe in free will, so nothing can change that.

The Bible teaches both, free will and predestination. Instead of choosing just one, we must reconcile both.
But you ask: Where is free will taught? For example: When God commands His people to repent, and says "but ye would not" or something similar to that.

It would make no sense for God to ask people to repent, when it is infact His fault they wont repent. All God has to do is give them repentance and faith, as the calvinists believe. Yet God refuses to give people this grace, and continues to ask and command them to repent. This is not logical, nor biblical, and just makes God out to be the same as Pharaoh in these verses:

Exodus 5:16 There is no straw given unto thy servants, and they say to us, Make brick: and, behold, thy servants are beaten; but the fault is in thine own people.

Pharaoh was asking something unreasonable.
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God has given man a free will to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, but it is by God's grace alone, without the help of man, to save him eternally. Your way of thinking is misguided.
 
Nehemiah6 said:
Of course God knows everything, but that is not even the issue.

All of these passages below (and many others) assume and imply that men have free will, and must either choose to obey the Gospel or disobey the Gospel.

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve... (Joshua 24:15)
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:15,16)

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16)

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

Please note the words "will" and "freely". God did not create robots, but mankind in His own image and likeness. Which includes freedom to choose God and Christ, or not.
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The whosoever will, and the ones to take the water of life freely, according to 1 Cor 2:14, will not be the natural man that cannot discern spiritual things. Until he has been regenerated, as explained in Eph 2:5.
 
eternally-gratefull said:
John 6: This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

I think it is quite clear what Gods will is. And who those people are who WILL recieve eternal life and be raised.
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The "whosoever" people and the "everyone who sees" people are restricted to only those who have been regenerated as explained in Eph 2, especially in verse 5. According to 1 Cor 2:14, we, as natural men, void of the Spirit, cannot discern spiritual things. God says only his sheep hear his voice.
 
ForestGreenCook said:
The "whosoever" people and the "everyone who sees" people are restricted to only those who have been regenerated as explained in Eph 2, especially in verse 5. According to 1 Cor 2:14, we, as natural men, void of the Spirit, cannot discern spiritual things. God says only his sheep hear his voice.
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You have certainly put yourself above me. I expect you believe that when i CAME TO God addressing Him as "You are Who You are," and He had pity on my broken heart guiding me to Jesus Christ and filling me with His Holy Spirit, that was false in your esteem.

I know of many who were lost and found by the Father when they turned to Him…...I am sorry you feel this way. When His Spirit entered into me, I believe I was foreknown by Him..……..
 
eternally-gratefull said:
Sorry, Read what I posted. You can not read those passages and continue in with what you are preaching.
You just saying so does not make it true
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Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us (those in Christ) unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, What's the adoption? See Romans 8:23...

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. The adoption is the future redemption of the body that those in Christ have been predestined for. That's the hope of glory for the believer in Christ.
 
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As the Lord has seen everything from beginning to end at the onset of His creation; they whom He then knew before they were born, are they who would choose to believe in Him, which is to believe in love and loving their neighbor.
If you believe in love, and loving your neighbor, you are then known by God.
If you do not believe in love, and not loving your neighbor, you are then not known by God, and He never foreknew you.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
 
luigi said:
As the Lord has seen everything from beginning to end at the onset of His creation; they whom He then knew before they were born, are they who would choose to believe in Him, which is to believe in love and loving their neighbor.
If you believe in love, and loving your neighbor, you are then known by God.
If you do not believe in love, and not loving your neighbor, you are then not known by God, and He never foreknew you.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
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The word actually states that the Lord knows the end from the beginning. The Lord knows how it's going to end and we do too for Scripture tells us. Read the end of Revelation. God has declared the ending and He will be ruling and reigning over all. Amen.
 
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