Predestination or free wiil.

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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Is this verse say faith is a gift?
"No one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father."
John 6:65

"...think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God has given you."
R 12:3

"For it has been granted to you concerning Christ, not only to believe in Him but also to suffer concerning Him"
Php 1:29
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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In your view, faith in God is just a psychological issue.

But the Bible says otherwise, faith is the gift of God.
Christ's faith is the gift of God given to them that believe.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

It's not our works, but the work Christ did at the cross. All we are asked to do is believe.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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"No one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father."
John 6:65

"...think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God has given you."
R 12:3

"For it has been granted to you concerning Christ, not only to believe in Him but also to suffer concerning Him"
Php 1:29
These verse do not say faith is a gift.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,097
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I am scratching my head over this...
Our faith cannot justify, only the faith of Jesus Christ. Christ's faith as displayed through His complete obedience even unto the death of the cross is what justifies a man who believes.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Our faith cannot justify, only the faith of Jesus Christ. Christ's faith as displayed through His complete obedience even unto the death of the cross is what justifies a man who believes.
So you believe that when you believe, you will get another faith put into you and your belief is not your belief anymore?

To say it differently, you are like calvinists, you know the salvic faith is a gift, you just think you will get this faith later.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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How does one become humble?
Is your strategy to just keep asking "how how how" until I get to God, and then you say God does it all?

The Bible unfortunately doesnt teach that God does it all. If it did, we could just throw away our bibles, God will regenerate and sanctify who He wants anyway, no need for instructions in the Bible, God will sort it out, no need to worry.

The truth is we are told to HUMBLE OURSELVES; to REPENT, to BELIEVE, to OBEY. And if we cant do any of these things, then wouldnt God be doing the same thing Pharaoh's people were doing here?:


Exo 5:16 There is no straw given unto thy servants, and they say to us, Make brick: and, behold, thy servants are beaten; but the fault is in thine own people.
Exo 5:17 But he said, Ye are idle, ye are idle: therefore ye say, Let us go and do sacrifice to the LORD.
Exo 5:18 Go therefore now, and work; for there shall no straw be given you, yet shall ye deliver the tale of bricks.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
John 6:65 King James Version (KJV)

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

King James Version (KJV)


We need to investigate what kind of person is elect by Father

Back to John 3:16
John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 6: This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

I think it is quite clear what Gods will is. And who those people are who WILL recieve eternal life and be raised.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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Gotcha! Thats the standard calvinist strategy. Unfortunately, it makes God the author of evil as well.
The westminster confession of faith states God is NOT the author of sin, yet that is exactly what it teaches.
What a mess that thing is.

The sky is blue. But the sky is NOT blue. Get a hold of that.

Could you refute my point in post #329
WHy does God command repentance, obedience, to humble ourselves, if we have no ability to do so? Isnt that what the wicked servants of Pharaoh did in the Exodus verses I quoted? Command bricks without giving straw!
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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So you believe that when you believe, you will get another faith put into you and your belief is not your belief anymore?

To say it differently, you are like calvinists, you know the salvic faith is a gift, you just think you will get this faith later.
The faith that justifies a man is not their own faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ. To receive justification by the faith of Jesus Christ(His testimony), one must believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. The life which I now live, I live by the faith of Jesus Christ.

My believing the gospel of Jesus Christ was not of God's choosing. If it were, it would not be me believing. Forced belief is not belief.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Predestination has nothing to do with salvation. Those who put their faith in Christ become predestined for the future adoption which is the redemption of the body. I love the doctrine of predestination. It declares my future hope of glory now that I'm in Christ.
Predestination has EVERYTHING to do with salvation.

We are predestined to be conformed to his image.

We are predestined in christ to be holy and without blame

Everyone he predestined he called. He justified, and he will glorify. (No and ifs or buts, no maybes, he WILL


We were predestined to be adopted as sons

We who are predestined wil obtain and inheritance (once our predestined state becomes active through faith in Christ

 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Correct, it's not random. One must first hear the gospel. Then one must trust and believe the gospel.

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Thats your point, your so busy trying to fight calvinism yuo miss the picture.

GOD KNOWS WHI WILL CHOSE TO BELIEVE, He knew it from BEFORE TIME BEGAN.

Free will is not removed from the fact. It is PART of the equation.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Gotcha! Thats the standard calvinist strategy. Unfortunately, it makes God the author of evil as well.
Depends on the definition of evil.

Evil can be physical (pain), metaphysical (the creature is not perfect) and moral (sin).

I do not believe that God is the author of sin, i.e. the author of the moral evil.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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Thats your point, your so busy trying to fight calvinism yuo miss the picture.

GOD KNOWS WHI WILL CHOSE TO BELIEVE, He knew it from BEFORE TIME BEGAN.

Free will is not removed from the fact. It is PART of the equation.
Did you know that you can never win a debate with a calvinist by saying God foreknows and then predestines according to that?
The reason is that they will drown you in the greek word proginosko which is an active verb, not a passive knowing. Its like preordaining almost.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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Depends on the definition of evil.

Evil can be physical (pain), metaphysical (the creature is not perfect) and moral (sin).

I do not believe that God is the author of sin, i.e. the author of the moral evil.
We are in agreement. How does that line up with God predestining EVERYTHING? Every wicked sinful thought deed and act ever commited has been predestined. (according to calvinism)
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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The faith that justifies a man is not their own faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ. To receive justification by the faith of Jesus Christ(His testimony), one must believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. The life which I now live, I live by the faith of Jesus Christ.

My believing the gospel of Jesus Christ was not of God's choosing. If it were, it would not be me believing. Forced belief is not belief.
Hm, I think that the faith that justifies is the faith real Christians have from the beginning.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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We are in agreement. How does that line up with God predestining EVERYTHING? Every wicked sinful thought deed and act ever commited has been predestined. (according to calvinism)
By predeterming the amount and direction of light, you can very precisely create the amount of darkness you think is needed. You are not the author of the darkness, though.